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2022 HOF Class ballot...

WizardofOz1982

Well-known member
Sep 30, 2017
1,436
800
Oklahoma
The one deserving guy from the Golden Days ballot is stuck with 11 votes again while 4 guys who don't deserve enshrinement got in. Wow. I guess Harold Baines isn't the worst Hall of Fame choice of the last 30 years now.

I'm surprised John Donaldson didn't get in but Buck O'Neil and Bud Fowler were both very good candidates (in Buck's case way too long in coming) and I'm glad to see them elected.
 

theplasticman

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2008
3,987
77
The one deserving guy from the Golden Days ballot is stuck with 11 votes again while 4 guys who don't deserve enshrinement got in. Wow. I guess Harold Baines isn't the worst Hall of Fame choice of the last 30 years now.

I'm surprised John Donaldson didn't get in but Buck O'Neil and Bud Fowler were both very good candidates (in Buck's case way too long in coming) and I'm glad to see them elected.
I'd like to hear the reasoning from voters but doubt we'll ever know.
 

JVHaste

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2015
4,752
268
Vancouver WA
I get that Maris' career was very short, but he won 2 MVPs and still has the non-PED homerun record a whopping 60 years later. For a short period he was an extreme impact player who would help a team win games. Some of the guys the voters approve in recent years seem to be slow accumulators that never had true cultural relevance.

Baines: 38.7 WAR / 9908 AB
Maris: 38.3 WAR / 5101 AB
 

mrmopar

Member
Jan 19, 2010
4,819
1,228
I am hoping that each time this group votes, a handful more get in. I think it is unfortunate a few more deserving candidates couldn’t go in now, but there is hope still in the future.

Especially happy to see Hodges get the nudge. Aside from Fowler, this will be the toughest autograph of the group for anyone who collects HOFers to add that didn’t already hedge their bets.
 

WizardofOz1982

Well-known member
Sep 30, 2017
1,436
800
Oklahoma
I get that Maris' career was very short, but he won 2 MVPs and still has the non-PED homerun record a whopping 60 years later. For a short period he was an extreme impact player who would help a team win games. Some of the guys the voters approve in recent years seem to be slow accumulators that never had true cultural relevance.

Baines: 38.7 WAR / 9908 AB
Maris: 38.3 WAR / 5101 AB

Maris used greenies. He's not a non-PED guy. Very few guys from the mid 40s to the 80s are. I don't care about that though because era context is important.

The main problem with Maris' candidacy is that his 2 MVP years were his only really great years. If you're going to get into the Hall of Fame on a short career with a lot of missed time then you have to be absolutely dominant the whole time you're on the field. Maris wasn't.

.260/.345/.476 1325 Hits, 195 2Bs, 275 HRs, 850 RBIs, 826 Rs, 21 SB

It just doesn't read like a Hall of Fame career even if he had a couple Hall of Fame moments.
 

mrmopar

Member
Jan 19, 2010
4,819
1,228
I totally agree with the Maris argument. If we looked beyond career stats for HOF election, then maybe Maris gets a special nod. He just was not a star player for a long enough period, nor was he completely dominant for a shorter, but long enough period (like Koufax) who I believe is the perfect case for a career w/o traditional HOF numbers. Had Maris not hit 60 HRs, I do not believe there would be a single person out there who would think his career warranted the HOF.

Lefty O'Doul is another name that I saw mentioned on one of the special committee ballots. He had an absolute massive year in 1929, hitting .398 with 254 hits (both league leaders) and 3 hits short of the single season record at the time, which would stand 84 years until Ichiro topped it in 2004 with 262. He had 2 other 200+ hit seasons, and another batting title (.368). He even hit .383 in 1930 and still didn't lead the league, because Bill Terry hit .401! His lifetime batting average was .349, but his 11 years of MLB service were mostly partials. In fact his first 4 seasons (1919-1923) were spread across 5 years and amounted to 76 games, then he didn't play MLB for 4 years, rather honing his hitting skills in the minors. He had only 6 seasons where he appeared in more than 100 games. When he played a full season though, he was certainly HOF caliber.

Apparently, he started as a pitcher and eventually changed to a fielding position after arm injuries ended his chances at being a career pitcher. When he returned in 1928 at the age of 31, that should really be considered the start. By that time though, age was catching up on him.

And talking about batting titles, Bill Madlock had 4! Check out his numbers and I bet they will shock you if you had never looked, because nobody thinks of him as a HOF candidate or even a perennial AS. In fact, his 3 AS appearances aligned with 3 of his 4 batting titles. He was not on the roster the year of his 4th title, since he was competing with Pete Rose. Had he played on some better teams, perhaps his numbers would have been a little better and thus maybe he is a HOF candidate. He is a career .305 hitter!
 

JVHaste

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2015
4,752
268
Vancouver WA
I should have mentioned I also thought Maris wasn't up to HOF grade, I was more trying to say how I'd rather have a true peak performance than the dribbling of stats other guys like Baines did. I can agree that most of the rest of his career is empty, I would say the year after his 2 MVPs was pretty good as 33HR would be valued higher than 33HR today... so maybe 2.5 great years. He is probably around 12 WAR short of consideration, that being said guys with low WAR low everything get in these days....

Greenies are so minor (to me) that I wouldn't mind them still being allowed in the game. Steroids can turn a junk player into a fundamentally different person, whereas greenies seem to make you the same person . . . but really good at cleaning. (think Requiem for a Dream) ;)
 

WizardofOz1982

Well-known member
Sep 30, 2017
1,436
800
Oklahoma
I should have mentioned I also thought Maris wasn't up to HOF grade, I was more trying to say how I'd rather have a true peak performance than the dribbling of stats other guys like Baines did. I can agree that most of the rest of his career is empty, I would say the year after his 2 MVPs was pretty good as 33HR would be valued higher than 33HR today... so maybe 2.5 great years. He is probably around 12 WAR short of consideration, that being said guys with low WAR low everything get in these days....

Greenies are so minor (to me) that I wouldn't mind them still being allowed in the game. Steroids can turn a junk player into a fundamentally different person, whereas greenies seem to make you the same person . . . but really good at cleaning. (think Requiem for a Dream) ;)

I fully agree with you on valuing a great peak over a long average compilation type career but I want to see 5-7 years of dominant peak for that kind of case and Maris doesn't have that or even close to it. Call it the Koufax argument if you will.

Greenies (Adderall) are scientifically proven to improve hand eye coordination and vision as well as energy level and focus. They're actually more impactful to a baseball player than steroids are on a day to day basis. Steroids don't improve hand eye coordination at all and in a game where a fraction of a fraction of an inch is the difference between a sky high pop up and a 400 foot homerun the impact is very high.

If you couldn't put the barrel to the ball before steroids you won't be able to after either. It isn't like steroids turned Larry Bigbie, Randy Velarde, Bobby Estalella, Mike Bell, Gary Bennett or 95% of the rest of the guys who used HGD or steroids into good hitters. There were a ton of guys who used steroids but only those who already had really good to elite bat to ball skills turned into video game players.

If you were a .290 hitter before Greenies then you're likely to be a .320 guy on them. Case in point...Chris Davis. Look at his stat line before he got his medical use exemption for them and after he lost it.

I'm not disparaging the guys who used Greenies because it was the era they played in but you can't exclude the steroid era guys if you're unwilling to revisit the Greenie era. If Mantle, Mays, Schmidt, and the rest are in then so should be Bonds, McGwire, Clemens, and the rest.
 

JVHaste

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2015
4,752
268
Vancouver WA
Yeah I would agree in a vacuum a .290 guy becomes a .320 guy, especially because peak focus avoids extended slumps.

but what I wonder is. . . what happens when both pitchers and hitters take greenies? We all kind of assume that pitchers and hitters taking roids has a slight edge to the hitter but I think if both take greenies that the pitcher has the edge. (considering how their volume of focus has to be distributed.. and the hand/eye reasons you mentioned)

The other thing I wonder about these is if you take greenies you're actually "borrowing" future energy and reflexes so to speak. (not short term crashes but a permanent decline below original floor) I've done a shitload of them and have to admit my reflexes and lateral scanning abilities quickly declined. I wonder if guys like Maris went downhill from something similar. This would be in line with how taking too many steroids messes with your hormones and lowers test nut function after quitting.
 

WizardofOz1982

Well-known member
Sep 30, 2017
1,436
800
Oklahoma
Yeah I would agree in a vacuum a .290 guy becomes a .320 guy, especially because peak focus avoids extended slumps.

but what I wonder is. . . what happens when both pitchers and hitters take greenies? We all kind of assume that pitchers and hitters taking roids has a slight edge to the hitter but I think if both take greenies that the pitcher has the edge. (considering how their volume of focus has to be distributed.. and the hand/eye reasons you mentioned)

The other thing I wonder about these is if you take greenies you're actually "borrowing" future energy and reflexes so to speak. (not short term crashes but a permanent decline below original floor) I've done a shitload of them and have to admit my reflexes and lateral scanning abilities quickly declined. I wonder if guys like Maris went downhill from something similar. This would be in line with how taking too many steroids messes with your hormones and lowers test nut function after quitting.

There's going to be some effect for pitchers too though pitching is much less reaction/vision/hand eye coordination based as it is muscle memory. It wouldn't surprise me if greenies are why guys like Nolan, Seaver, and the rest could routinely throw 300+ innings a year and not even sweat it though. They just never felt tired. I do think it was major contributor to the lack of pitching injuries relative to other eras though. Tired pitchers get hurt generally.

As far as the breakdown that's possible. I haven't ever used them and I haven't really done much research on the lasting side effects of them. Likely genetic predisposition just like anything else though is my guess. There were lots of guys who used them much longer than Maris did without any ill affect, at least during their careers. Maris' injuries weren't really anything I'd associate with amphetamine use either. They were basically a litany of soft tissue issues generally more associated with steroid cycling than amphetamine use.
 
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