Can someone explain to me how 16-9 is Hall of Fame worthy?

[Guest]

Seriously, especially when the fighter is still active.

What if this certain fighter were to lose a few more times and not win anymore before his retirement.

It already looks bad enough in my opinion having a 16-9 fighter in your HOF, but what about a fighter that's 16-10 or 16-11 oe 16-12.

That's really not good at all.

 

[Russ S.]

1. Guy is a legend. Been around since UFC 13!
2. He's a class act and one of the nicest and most humble people you will ever meet.
3. He's the only person to be World Champion in 2 different weight Classes.
(Until BJ does is soon, and he'll be owner of the 2 belts at the same time!)
4. It's Randy Freakin' Couture.

Do some reading, history research, and actually learn about the guy before you just look at the 16-7 Record.
He IS a UFC Hall of Famer!

 

[Guest]

Here are the UFC Hall of Fame Members.


Royce Gracie was 14-3. 3 Draws. 12 Submissions. 0 KO's.

Ken Shamrock was 26-13. 2 Draws. 22 Submissions. 2 KO's.

Dan Severn was 86-15. 7 Draws. 53 Submissions. 13 KO's.

Randy Couture is 16-9. 0 Draws. 2 Submissions. 7 KO's.

Mark Coleman is 15-8. 0 Draws. 8 Submissions. 4 KO's.


Only ones on there who really look deserving are Shamrock and Severn. Maybe not even Shamrock with all his losses.

But Severn is a lock.

I personally wouldn't put anyone in the Hall of Fame with under 20 wins.


I think they jumped the gun on inducting people into the HOF so soon. Should have waited several more years that way you don't put in the Randy's and Coleman's who are still active in the sport. Hell, Severn is still active too.


But I am sure I am going to be bashed for this becuase Randy Couture isn't my hero, so bash away.

 

[Guest]

1. Guy is a legend. Been around since UFC 13!
2. He's a class act and one of the nicest and most humble people you will ever meet.
3. He's the only person to be World Champion in 2 different weight Classes.
(Until BJ does is soon, and he'll be owner of the 2 belts at the same time!)
4. It's Randy Freakin' Couture.

Do some reading, history research, and actually learn about the guy before you just look at the 16-7 Record.
He IS a UFC Hall of Famer!

Just because you are a good guy, been around for a long time, and someone everyone loves to slurp doesn't mean you are Hall of Fame worthy. Hell, there are several people you can say that same exact thing about in baseball that aren't in the Hall of Fame. Mattingly, Santo. Those guys could be considered legendary, great guys, and Hell, they've been around for years. But they aren't in the Hall.



They put Randy into the HOF because of who he is, not what he had accomplished.

 

[Russ S.]

[quote="Russ S.":yuod9jqs]1. Guy is a legend. Been around since UFC 13!
2. He's a class act and one of the nicest and most humble people you will ever meet.
3. He's the only person to be World Champion in 2 different weight Classes.
(Until BJ does is soon, and he'll be owner of the 2 belts at the same time!)
4. It's Randy Freakin' Couture.

Do some reading, history research, and actually learn about the guy before you just look at the 16-7 Record.
He IS a UFC Hall of Famer!

Just because you are a good guy, been around for a long time, and someone everyone loves to slurp doesn't mean you are Hall of Fame worthy. Hell, there are several people you can say that same exact thing about in baseball that aren't in the Hall of Fame. Mattingly, Santo. Those guys could be considered legendary, great guys, and Hell, they've been around for years. But they aren't in the Hall.



They put Randy into the HOF because of who he is, not what he had accomplished.[/quote:yuod9jqs]

See #3!

Also, who has more title matches then Randy?

Did you even know what MMA was before 2005?

 

[MojoDan]

Sam - you really dont think Gracie should be in there?

He is the most recognized name in mma history I would think? Not to mention how many people sought out to learn his specific methods/teachings?

 

[Guest]

Hell, Forrest Griffin is 16-4. 7 Submissions. 3 KO's.

Why don't we just go ahead and put him in right now???

I mean, he's a great guy you know!! He's got just as many wins at Randy. Less losses. Winner of the first Ultimate Fighter. He was involved in one of the biggest events in MMA history, the first Ultimate Fighter Finale and put on what I think is one of the best fights of all time with Stephan Bonner. He's the champion.

I mean. he's freaking FORREST GRIFFIN for Christ's sake! He must be deserving. Almost everyone loves Forrest!!


I'm starting a ************* petition.

FORREST FOR UFC HALL OF FAME AT UFC 100!!!


We might as well put him in now JUST IN CASE he loses 10 or so more fights in his career and soils his record and it would look too bad to do in the future!!!

 

[Guest]

Sam - you really dont think Gracie should be in there?

He is the most recognized name in mma history I would think? Not to mention how many people sought out to learn his specific methods/teachings?

I'm not saying I don't think he should be in. I am just trying to point out how flawed the system is.

Gracie is one of the foundations of all of MMA, not just the UFC. Yes, I believe he should be in there. I was just trying to make a point against Randy earlier to be honest.

But for me, right now, there should only be two members of the UFC HOF. Hoyce and Severn.

 

[Guest]

[quote="Sam Banks":rusocn13][quote="Russ S.":rusocn13]1. Guy is a legend. Been around since UFC 13!
2. He's a class act and one of the nicest and most humble people you will ever meet.
3. He's the only person to be World Champion in 2 different weight Classes.
(Until BJ does is soon, and he'll be owner of the 2 belts at the same time!)
4. It's Randy Freakin' Couture.

Do some reading, history research, and actually learn about the guy before you just look at the 16-7 Record.
He IS a UFC Hall of Famer!

Just because you are a good guy, been around for a long time, and someone everyone loves to slurp doesn't mean you are Hall of Fame worthy. Hell, there are several people you can say that same exact thing about in baseball that aren't in the Hall of Fame. Mattingly, Santo. Those guys could be considered legendary, great guys, and Hell, they've been around for years. But they aren't in the Hall.



They put Randy into the HOF because of who he is, not what he had accomplished.[/quote:rusocn13]

See #3!

Also, who has more title matches then Randy?

Did you even know what MMA was before 2005?[/quote:rusocn13]


Yes, I am aware at how impressive that is. But he's only the first one to do that, and I am sure he will not be the last.

If that's really the only worthy accomplishment on his record to be considered for HOF then is that really enough to be inducted into the HOF? If you think it is, that's fine. I think it's impressive too.

 

[MojoDan]

Sam - you really dont think Gracie should be in there?

He is the most recognized name in mma history I would think? Not to mention how many people sought out to learn his specific methods/teachings?

I'm not saying I don't think he should be in. I am just trying to point out how flawed the system is.

Oh okay...

So if I understand correctly, you want them to wait until the fighter is retired right? I'm just trying to understand because if someone like Silva, GSP, Penn end up holding 3 belts at once and winning in 3 different divisions you still want to wait until they call it a career right?

 

[Russ S.]

Sam U really are a piece of work.

Can't really expect a WWE fan to understand MMA I guess.

 

[Guest]

Sam - you really dont think Gracie should be in there?

He is the most recognized name in mma history I would think? Not to mention how many people sought out to learn his specific methods/teachings?

I'm not saying I don't think he should be in. I am just trying to point out how flawed the system is.

Oh okay...

So if I understand correctly, you want them to wait until the fighter is retired right? I'm just trying to understand because if someone like Silva, GSP, Penn end up holding 3 belts at once and winning in 3 different divisions you still want to wait until they call it a career right?

I edited my post you quoted a bit.

I for sure think that they should wait until a fighter should be totally finished competing before even being considered for the Hall of Fame. And they should probably wait a few years before inducting someone just to be more sure that they are really done.

And if the fighter were to come out of retirement after being inducted, then after they are finished for good their total record after that should be re-evaluated and accomodations should be made.


I say they should have waited on even having a UFC HOF because there really needs to be some standards set. I do think there should be a minimun number of wins set, say 20. And I think losses should be taken into account too. And if you want to induct someone like Royce or someone with say, under 20 wins, call that your Legends induction for the year or something, or induct them as a contributer.

But to induct a figther while they are still fighting, especially with the record Randy has is ridiculous. The dude could lose 10 more times if he wanted to keep on fighting, and then how does that make your HOF look? Makes it look like a complete joke.

 

[Guest]

Sam U really are a piece of work.

Can't really expect a WWE fan to understand MMA I guess.

One, I don't see what WWE has to do with any of this.

Two, I guess you aren't much for logical thinking.

With your thinking, we should just put Pujols and ARod in the Baseball HOF tomorrow because they are going to end up there one day maybe.

 

[MojoDan]

[quote="Sam Banks":m4z9k08x]

Sam - you really dont think Gracie should be in there?

He is the most recognized name in mma history I would think? Not to mention how many people sought out to learn his specific methods/teachings?

I'm not saying I don't think he should be in. I am just trying to point out how flawed the system is.

Oh okay...

So if I understand correctly, you want them to wait until the fighter is retired right? I'm just trying to understand because if someone like Silva, GSP, Penn end up holding 3 belts at once and winning in 3 different divisions you still want to wait until they call it a career right?

I edited my post you quoted a bit.

I for sure think that they should wait until a fighter should be totally finished competing before even being considered for the Hall of Fame. And they should probably wait a few years before inducting someone just to be more sure that they are really done.

And if the fighter were to come out of retirement after being inducted, then after they are finished for good their total record after that should be re-evaluated and accomodations should be made.


I say they should have waited on even having a UFC HOF because there really needs to be some standards set. I do think there should be a minimun number of wins set, say 20. And I think losses should be taken into account too. And if you want to induct someone like Royce or someone with say, under 20 wins, call that your Legends induction for the year or something, or induct them as a contributer.

But to induct a figther while they are still fighting, especially with the record Randy has is ridiculous. The dude could lose 10 more times if he wanted to keep on fighting, and then how does that make your HOF look? Makes it look like a complete joke.[/quote:m4z9k08x]


Okay but consider this...

Randy set the standard for having been champion in two weight classes, so if someone goes on to win three or something he was still the pioneer. So without him having done that there wouldnt be that measuring stick so to speak. In other words the bar is set at two. I understand what you are saying though, and opinions vary...

 

[Guest]

[quote="Sam Banks":198qv3b2]

Sam - you really dont think Gracie should be in there?

He is the most recognized name in mma history I would think? Not to mention how many people sought out to learn his specific methods/teachings?

I'm not saying I don't think he should be in. I am just trying to point out how flawed the system is.

Oh okay...

So if I understand correctly, you want them to wait until the fighter is retired right? I'm just trying to understand because if someone like Silva, GSP, Penn end up holding 3 belts at once and winning in 3 different divisions you still want to wait until they call it a career right?

I edited my post you quoted a bit.

I for sure think that they should wait until a fighter should be totally finished competing before even being considered for the Hall of Fame. And they should probably wait a few years before inducting someone just to be more sure that they are really done.

And if the fighter were to come out of retirement after being inducted, then after they are finished for good their total record after that should be re-evaluated and accomodations should be made.


I say they should have waited on even having a UFC HOF because there really needs to be some standards set. I do think there should be a minimun number of wins set, say 20. And I think losses should be taken into account too. And if you want to induct someone like Royce or someone with say, under 20 wins, call that your Legends induction for the year or something, or induct them as a contributer.

But to induct a figther while they are still fighting, especially with the record Randy has is ridiculous. The dude could lose 10 more times if he wanted to keep on fighting, and then how does that make your HOF look? Makes it look like a complete joke.

Okay but consider this...

Randy set the standard for having been champion in two weight classes, so if someone goes on to win three or something he was still the pioneer. So without him having done that there wouldnt be that measuring stick so to speak. In other words the bar is set at two. I understand what you are saying though, and opinions vary...[/quote:198qv3b2]

And I completely understand where you are coming from too.

I just don't think his record warrents induction, especially with him still being an active fighter.

 

[MojoDan]

I am all for waiting until a fighter calls it a career, but I really do believe Randy is a HOFer either way.

He has done a lot for the sport, and I think Russ sees that as being incredibly valuable.
(As do I)

Would you like to see a five year wait for possible induction or something like that or just so long as they are retired thats good enough? We like a lot of the same fighters Sam, and I see what you are getting at...

 

[Guest]

Would you like to see a five year wait for possible induction or something like that or just so long as they are retired thats good enough? We like a lot of the same fighters Sam, and I see what you are getting at...

I think a 5 year wait would be a good amount of time to gague whether a figther is really done.

Because I think it would be a shame for someone who may be HOF worthy to say they are retiring, then get inducted, and then just go on to continue fighting all over the world and just to capitalize on the "UFC Hall of Famer (insert name here)" moniker to make some cash well after their carreer should be over. One, that's horrible for the HOF. Two, some scenario like that is something that could get fighters on the downside literally killed in an cage or ring, and nobody wants to see that.


Some of the things you guys have said makes me think I may be wrong and that Randy may be worthy of the HOF, especially thinking about the weight class thing. But you just can't justify putting the guy in the HOF before his career is even over. That's just not right.

I will tell you this, if Randy wasn't already inducted into the HOF, and then he pulled all the **** he did with retiring and then trashing Dana, I bet he would have a pretty tough time getting into the UFC HOF for years to come. Randy's even had trouble with Affliction. For being such a great guy, the dude sure does get into some ****** altercations with people like UFC and Affliction. I kind of think many people look at Randy with blinders on in many instances and refuse to admit that the guy is ever wrong.

 

[Guest]

Here's another question. Do you guys think that Tito Ortiz is HOF worthy?

15-6. 2 Submissions. 1 Draw. 8 KO's.

I can't see Dana ever putting him in while he's in charge of the show.




Championships and accomplishments

Ultimate Fighting Championship

UFC Light Heavyweight Champion

Wrestling Observer Newsletter

2002 Feud of the Year (vs Ken Shamrock)
2006 Feud of the Year (vs Ken Shamrock)

FIGHTING SPIRIT magazine

2006 Fight of The Year (vs Forrest Griffin, UFC 59)
2006 Golden Gloves

 

[MojoDan]

Always liked watching Tito's fights, and if memory serves he had the belt for about 3 years. Thats a pretty big accomplishment right there as far as I'm concerned...

 

[Guest]

I can see people thinking Tito is worthy.

Years down the road fighters like Randy, Royce, Shamrock, and Tito that were around in the 'infancy' so to say, of the sport are going to get a raw deal stat wise in the record books in my opinion. Fighters coming up today are just more well rounded, better all around fighters, and are going to fight much more before their career ends.


That's why I made the comment earlier that they should have waited before even creating a UFC HOF and then had a Legends wing or something like that for these guys so 100 years down the road people won't just look at their records and wonder why they are in there. They would realize how special what they did was instead of asking what in the Hell they are doing in the HOF with a record such as 16-9 when someone like Severn has 50+ wins.