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Mike Witt #702 New York Yankee error card

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Gilbert M Ayala

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Jun 1, 2016
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I admire all you guys,im New to collecting,and I'm very excited to get started on my collecting,it will keep me busy as well as give me knowledge.
 
Jan 14, 2009
595
5
Couldn't agree with you more,that's why I say,if they sell,they sell...but I won't just give them away,so if people want to pay,they will pay,if not,its no problem for me to hold them,and I don't believe these were found in sheets and cut,thanks for your comment.

Do you mind me asking what insight he provided? I noticed that he emailed me shortly after you posted several times on my blog of asking about them. It seems he directed you to my work/information source on the card. And for what it's worth, my last post provides more info, data and knowledge about the future sales of this card than anything that has been said so far.
 

Gilbert M Ayala

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Jun 1, 2016
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Can you do me a favor Jackson and forward the link you are talking about,also,can you tell me about the person who has the sheets and the guy with the pallet,i couldn't find anything about any of those finds,much appreciated
 
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Jan 14, 2009
595
5
Can you do me a favor Jackson and forward the link you are talking about,also,can you tell me about the person who has the sheets and the guy with the pallet,i couldn't find anything about any of those finds,much appreciated

What link? I know that you left several messages on my blog (junkwaxgems) asking for information on the Witt, in the comments section of the Witt article I compiled and wrote a few years ago. I'm assuming that is the info that Rich pointed you to.

Nobody has the uncut sheet anymore as they were cut up and sold as singles years ago. Some were graded by BGS. They have made their way into collections by now.

Same with the Witt error box/palette finds. Over the last few years many copies of the Witt showed up for sale on eBay (after only 3-4 in ten plus years). This reduced the value of the card and the number of collectors willing to drop big cash on it. Now that it is public knowledge that 800 additional copies exist, and I'll wager there are more of those 800ct boxes full of them out there, the value will certainly drop further. Here are some factors:

- knowing these were "saved" and not trashed means far more out there (800 at least, but now speculation begins)

-upper deck doesn't have the master set collectors that Topps does. Their variations sell for substantially less than Topps do. So however many die hard error, Yankees, and ud master set builders are out there interested in owning one isn't a very big number, and considering many of those have picked up a copy in the last few years, the number is relatively low. Even their biggest collector, KO, will likely be spending far less on obtaining them, if at all, with this knowledge present.

-interest will likely shift to the checklist 800 with black box, as only a few copies have shown up for sale so far but if your find is indicitive of anything it's that there are hoards of them out there somewhere.
 

Gilbert M Ayala

New member
Jun 1, 2016
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I didn't know that was your site,junkwaxgems,but a s I stated before,it really doesn't make a difference if they sell or not,its not a problem me holding what I got,to me they are just a card,any I have been in touch with a few people who are willing to pay,but it's only common sense if you say there are "hoards" of them that someone would bring them out?...I haven't seen any..so your opinions mean nothing to me..only time will tell,but in the meantime they are in my possesion.
 
Jan 14, 2009
595
5
I didn't know that was your site,junkwaxgems,but a s I stated before,it really doesn't make a difference if they sell or not,its not a problem me holding what I got,to me they are just a card,any I have been in touch with a few people who are willing to pay,but it's only common sense if you say there are "hoards" of them that someone would bring them out?...I haven't seen any..so your opinions mean nothing to me..only time will tell,but in the meantime they are in my possesion.

So you ask for information, you get it and then you discount it as my "opinions" which "means nothing to" you. Ok. Here's another opinion: you want to make as much possible on this hoard, right? So an expert gives you the facts to do what you need to with and because they add up to you making less on them than the arbitrary and unrealistic numbers you received from a "helpful" collector, you decide you're gonna discount the knowledge. Whether you "don't care" and hold onto them or not matters little now that card is known to exist in quantities of more than 1000 copies. Just the fact that an 800ct box was found will make collectors pause before buying many more at their former price points.

Your find of an 800 count lot of them is some huge information on this card, possibly the biggest piece so far (definitely MY opinion and one I predicted years ago). But you really think that your 800 count is the only hoard that was smuggled out by an UD employee? In fact, this news is so big, I will be making a new blog entry on your fortunate discovery, as I feel it is extremely important that the collecting public (who use my site as source on this card and other variation items) is aware that so many of the card are now confirmed to exist.
 

Gilbert M Ayala

New member
Jun 1, 2016
24
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Once again I have no disrespect to the collecting community,you stayed the obvious by your opinion that the are hundreds of thousands out there,so where are they?..all through the internet I've looked..seen 2 pictures out there, so once again show me the sheets,show me the many many more out there,its all your hearsay,and instead of saying,"hey man,good find""best of luck on what ever you do with them"...you want to try and belittle me because your the expert,show your expertise and prove your theory of the hundreds of thousands out there??..why so negative?..put yourself in my shoes,maybe that's why the negativity..cause your not the one in my shoes,so go ahead mister expert,post what you want,but bottom line is you can't prove what you think you know!...peace.
 
Jan 14, 2009
595
5
Once again I have no disrespect to the collecting community,you stayed the obvious by your opinion that the are hundreds of thousands out there,so where are they?..all through the internet I've looked..seen 2 pictures out there, so once again show me the sheets,show me the many many more out there,its all your hearsay,and instead of saying,"hey man,good find""best of luck on what ever you do with them"...you want to try and belittle me because your the expert,show your expertise and prove your theory of the hundreds of thousands out there??..why so negative?..put yourself in my shoes,maybe that's why the negativity..cause your not the one in my shoes,so go ahead mister expert,post what you want,but bottom line is you can't prove what you think you know!...peace.

I'm not being negative, just giving you the facts and information that you requested, you just don't like it. Nobody has said there are hundreds of thousands. Do you not read what I post?

Ten sheets were found with a Witt on each. I'll do the math for you: that's 10 Witts. THEN...a palette of hi number boxes was broken and an unknown amount of Witt's were pulled, let's say 10 (it was more but to keep it easy). So now we have 20 new Witts in circulating in a short span of time (this went down between 2010 and 2014). Prior to that, there had been at least 10 sales. So that adds up to 30 Witts that I claim as confirmed and just having 30 copies over that time brought the value down from $600+ to less than $200. So at minimum, with your hoard, 830 copies are out there. There are not 830 people willing to pay THAT much for this card. After each person who wants one, gets one, the value dips (simple economics).

By the time you sell 20 of these, they will be $100 cards (still great find!), and even if you wait patiently and space them out, by the time you've sold 100 of them, they will be $50 cards. Your best bet is to hold a small batch (20-50) and literally burn the rest. You'll still make more money on them that way. That is, unless another 800ct box shows up.

EDIT: Witt sheets being sold by your helpful collector SHEETS!

This was the 4th or 5th hit under google search "1990 Upper Deck Mike Witt." My article and blog being #1 and #2 . You're welcome.
 
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clarkfan

Active member
Sep 15, 2009
1,527
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I think we should just close this thread before it derails. I think we tried as a community to help with insight on actual sales data, actual documented/heavy research on the card, but the collector didn't really want to hear what we had to say. I think jacksoncoupage has about as much knowledge as you'll find on the card, and his opinion, weighs a lot more than most, definitely more than mine. But there isn't any reason to see this thread start to get ugly. It's a sad reality of the forum world. If the opinion they get isn't what they wanted to hear, they get offended too easily.
 

Gilbert M Ayala

New member
Jun 1, 2016
24
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Believe me,there's no offense anywhere in my shoes,so all information is informative,I've been in this hobby 5 says,im no expert,like I said earlier,i admire all you guys and the knowledge it takes to be in it,and as far as I'm concerned,my comments are done,goodnight all.
 
Jan 14, 2009
595
5
I think we should just close this thread before it derails. I think we tried as a community to help with insight on actual sales data, actual documented/heavy research on the card, but the collector didn't really want to hear what we had to say. I think jacksoncoupage has about as much knowledge as you'll find on the card, and his opinion, weighs a lot more than most, definitely more than mine. But there isn't any reason to see this thread start to get ugly. It's a sad reality of the forum world. If the opinion they get isn't what they wanted to hear, they get offended too easily.

One of the points I am stressing here is that this isn't my opinion so much as it is simple supply and demand. UD is not as heavily or passionately collected as Topps as far as E&V and master set collectors go: fact; if 30-40 known copies brought the value down from $600+ to under $200 in four years, knowing there are 800 more out there will bring it down again: fact; after every collector who really wants a copy owns a copy, the price will continue to drop: fact. What is my opinion, based entirely on the validation of my prediction of this find, is that there were likely more UD employees/execs who received/took stashes of these. 800 each? Maybe, probably not, but it is only logical to assume that if these withdrawn cards were being stored after pulling for some reason, others made it out of the factory. If I am wrong on that front, that doesn't change the hard fact that we now know that somewhere between 830-900 copies exist (not sure how many KO has purchased off ebay). That is a lot of copies for a junk era variation of an uncollected player from a set with minimal popularity behind it.

FYI, This find is equally amazing and sad for me. On one hand it is an insane discovery to behold, on the other it brings things back to reality, demystifying the card and it's distribution as likely another shifty backdoor/backhanded action on UDs behalf (see excess print runs of 1989 Griffey and Murphy ERR, 1990-91 French Hockey).
 

clarkfan

Active member
Sep 15, 2009
1,527
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Well, I can tell ya if I had stumbled upon 800 of them, I'd contact KO (after I had a few graded for authenticity purposes) and ask him to buy the batch for 120K or something. That's nothing to him and that way it keeps the normal marketplace in check. It would absolutely suck selling these things after about the 30th or 40th one. 800 sounds like an absolute monster number when selling them off 1 at a time. It should be a fun ride to watch from the bleachers though :)
 
Jan 14, 2009
595
5
I'd contact KO (after I had a few graded for authenticity purposes) and ask him to buy the batch for 120K or something. That's nothing to him and that way it keeps the normal marketplace in check.

The thing is, now it's known that 800+ copies exist, the marketplace won't keep in check for long. And nobody would drop $120k to own 800 of this card. It's previous market value was based on so few having shown up and chatter online. That's why the value dropped when the sheets were found and again when the boxes with them were broken and they made their way to eBay. Up until a few years ago, nobody knew if 10 or 100 existed. The best thing he could do for himself ($$$) and for the card/hobby is to keep a small batch and destroy the remainder.
 
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Gilbert M Ayala

New member
Jun 1, 2016
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Very well said of both of you,i thought Jackson's article was a piece of excellent writing,and some will get graded,and clark,if you know KO..I will gladly give them to him for half that,lol..cheers guys.
 

DeliciousBacon

Well-known member
Apr 23, 2011
3,444
94
Warwick, RI
Knowing there's an extra 800 (or more) of these out there, are they $20 cards? $10? Has a card of such magnitude ever lost so much of its value so quickly? Reminds me of when Oscar Taveras died, and a few days later, his Bowman Chrome autos were down to around $5.
 

mrmopar

Member
Jan 19, 2010
5,024
1,585
WTF?

How is this good for anyone but the seller and anyone who already owns a copy and wishes to maintain some sort of higher value? The only reason a card like that has any collector value is that it was originally perceive to be limited to or was at one point actually limited to a small number of copies. Guys like Olbermann pay huge bucks for this type of thing and the rest of us follow suit. At least Thomas (NNOF) and RJ (Marlboro) are HOFers, but guys like Herrera, Treadway, B. Ripken and some of the other obscure no-name errors/variations…it really amazes me that people hold them in such high regard. The desire to have something that was not meant to be had is oddly strong in our society. 800 copies may not completely satisfy demand, especially since we tend to hold these things in high regard even after the real value disappears, but it would certainly drive the price way down as it should. Does anyone give a crap about an insert numbered to 800 copies? How about 200 copies? 100? Hardly anymore. It's funny that we hold weird flaws/oddities like this in such high regard, but a manufactured scarcity like a press plate which is truly unique has almost become a bore to collectors now.

The best thing he could do for himself ($$$) and for the card/hobby is to keep a small batch and destroy the remainder.
 
Jan 14, 2009
595
5
WTF?

How is this good for anyone but the seller and anyone who already owns a copy and wishes to maintain some sort of higher value? The only reason a card like that has any collector value is that it was originally perceive to be limited to or was at one point actually limited to a small number of copies. Guys like Olbermann pay huge bucks for this type of thing and the rest of us follow suit. At least Thomas (NNOF) and RJ (Marlboro) are HOFers, but guys like Herrera, Treadway, B. Ripken and some of the other obscure no-name errors/variations…it really amazes me that people hold them in such high regard. The desire to have something that was not meant to be had is oddly strong in our society. 800 copies may not completely satisfy demand, especially since we tend to hold these things in high regard even after the real value disappears, but it would certainly drive the price way down as it should. Does anyone give a crap about an insert numbered to 800 copies? How about 200 copies? 100? Hardly anymore. It's funny that we hold weird flaws/oddities like this in such high regard, but a manufactured scarcity like a press plate which is truly unique has almost become a bore to collectors now.

While I understand your perspective, and don't disagree entirely, yes, I would wager that 800 new copies in circulation will destroy the value of the card. Will everyone have a copy who wants one? Maybe. Depends on how much they wanna pay. After 100 copies have sold, there will be plenty of collectors willing to drop $10, $20 for the novelty of it. But even if one is sold per week for the next 4 years, the card will be well below $100, especially once the knowledge of this find circulates. There aren't 800 people willing to pay $100 for this card. And the early sales of this card weren't only a result of KO, I was in the $300-400 range and I know a handful of others in the same range, however, they eventually landed a copy after the last two rounds of them were discovered and offered for sale.

For the record, I have never owned a copy of this card. My suggestion to keep a small batch and burn the rest was advice on how he can make the most money on these (why he came here) but also not completely destroy the market on them.
 

mrmopar

Member
Jan 19, 2010
5,024
1,585
Announcing that you have 800+ of a card previously thought to be known in low double digits is certainly no way to maximize profits.

I happened upon a stash (not mine) of the 1992 UW Huskies Billy Joe Hobert card. It was unissued I believe due to his scandal around the time of the 91 Championship. The owner was leaking them out very slowly (I want to say he was asking $25 per card and this was maybe 15-20 years ago) and probably told very few people, if anyone, that he had so many. I assume he still has them and a quick internet search brings up no photos or any for sale. Perhaps they too will all come out at some point in the future.

It sucks that more people can't/don't own that card, but in the end, Hobert never did amount to much and this is again one of those novelties that people would pay more for if they had a chance. Had Hobert made it big, this might have been an amazing card to own as long as the quantities remained "controlled". I'll have to dig and see if I was able to get one from him back then. I know I wouldn't have paid his asking price, so I probably didn't, especially seeing the quantity he had!
 

Gilbert M Ayala

New member
Jun 1, 2016
24
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Very good points gentleman,it was never in my plan to let the amount of copies out to the public,someone was told and apparently he told someone also,it never came directly out of my month,i know there's value in the card and also know that 800 people won't have them...there are only 800 copies in circulation if 800 copies are sold,it doesn't make any sense to try to have them out there like that, I would never destroy something that was meant to be in the publics hands,it doesn't make sense,both comments are correct,we seem to be making a big deal out of something that's not even out there,for all we know there could only be 5,10,20 out there,time will tell what happens with the card.
 
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