AL Cy Young - Felix or Greinke

[andyduke86]

There is absolutely no valid argument for anyone over Greinke, especially Felix.

 

[MOFNY]

Gotta go with Greinke. He's been amazing and working with so little.


Some Greinke vs Felix stats that are biased the other way. Just for fun

Greinke has only received and average of 3.75 runs per game of support which is actually up from 3.40 that he had for most of the season while Felix is sitting pretty with 4.28.

The Mariners have never failed to score with Felix on the mound, while Greinke received no run support in 4 games,

In 31 Starts the Royals scored 3 runs or less 19 times or 63% of his starts. For the Mariners Felix received 4 runs or more in 19 games for the same 63% of the time.

Half of Greinke's losses came in games were he gave up 3 or fewer runs. Twice he gave up only 1 run. In all of Felix's losses he gave up at least 5 runs (in one gave he gave up 3 earned, but had 6 runs total)

Greinke has 10 games where he gave up 0 earned runs. Felix has two fewer. Greinke has also only give up 5 or more runs twice where as Felix has done it 5 times.

Ok...bored of comparing just will give these

Greinke
ERA - 1st
WHIP - 1st
Hits/IP - 1st
BoB/IP - 6th
K/9 - 3rd
IP - 4th
SO - 2nd
CG - 2nd
SHO - 1st
K/BB - 2nd
HR/9 - 1st
Adjusted ERA - 1st


Honestly though. I would think Verlander would be a better candidate than Felix.

I agree with this...

 

[Sly]

Gotta go with Greinke. He's been amazing and working with so little.


Some Greinke vs Felix stats that are biased the other way. Just for fun

Greinke has only received and average of 3.75 runs per game of support which is actually up from 3.40 that he had for most of the season while Felix is sitting pretty with 4.28.

The Mariners have never failed to score with Felix on the mound, while Greinke received no run support in 4 games,

In 31 Starts the Royals scored 3 runs or less 19 times or 63% of his starts. For the Mariners Felix received 4 runs or more in 19 games for the same 63% of the time.

Half of Greinke's losses came in games were he gave up 3 or fewer runs. Twice he gave up only 1 run. In all of Felix's losses he gave up at least 5 runs (in one gave he gave up 3 earned, but had 6 runs total)

Greinke has 10 games where he gave up 0 earned runs. Felix has two fewer. Greinke has also only give up 5 or more runs twice where as Felix has done it 5 times.

Ok...bored of comparing just will give these

Greinke
ERA - 1st
WHIP - 1st
Hits/IP - 1st
BoB/IP - 6th
K/9 - 3rd
IP - 4th
SO - 2nd
CG - 2nd
SHO - 1st
K/BB - 2nd
HR/9 - 1st
Adjusted ERA - 1st


Honestly though. I would think Verlander would be a better candidate than Felix.

I have no issues with the argument of Greinke over Felix...but Verlander over Felix? How so?

16-9 vs. 16-5 Record
.242 vs. .229 BAA
1.18 vs. 1.14 WHIP
3.44 vs. 2.45 ERA
245 vs. 196 K
217.1 vs. 216.1 IP (Verlander also has one more start)
198 vs. 183 Hits
3 vs. 2 CG
1 vs. 1 SHO
20 vs. 14 HR Allowed
59 vs. 64 BB
16 vs. 21 starts w/ 2 or less ERs
8 vs. 5 starts w/ 5+ ERs

Come on...other than strikeouts really, how is Verlander a better choice than Felix? Hell, CC is a better choice than Verlander.

As for the one who mentioned Feldman...even if he gets to 20 wins (which he won't, as he probably will only have two starts left), his ERA, WHIP, Strikeouts just do not stack up. Yes, voters will love the 20 wins, but they are smart enough to look at a couple other numbers.

 

[bradical]

Here is some interesting stats:

Felix has 17 starts of 7 IP or more in which he allowed 1 ER or less.
Greinke has 13 starts of 7 IP or more in which he allowed 1 ER or less.

They have both pitched 216.1 innings to date this season.

Greinke has 59 ER, Felix with 50.

Greinke has given up 182 hits, Felix has given up 183 hits.

Greinke has given up 11 HR, Felix with 14.

Away Pitching Stats: Greinke (6-5) 2.48 ERA 98 Ks, Felix (9-2) 1.90 ERA 105 Ks

Second Half Stats: Greinke (5-3) 2.02 ERA 100 Ks, Felix (7-2) 2.36 ERA 75 Ks

Starts vs Division Leaders: Greinke (2-2) 0.95 ERA 47 Ks, Felix (5-1) 1.82 ERA 53 Ks

 

[ballerskrip]

C.C. pitches in the hardest division

Anyone who is voting for CC is a homer, or doesn't understand baseball....

Greinke's ERA is 1 1/2 runs lower!!!!!!!! Not .25, 1 1/2. You do understand his means he gives up 1 1/2 runs less per 9 innings right? Just checking to see if you guys get that...

CC should not finish in the top 3... I am willing go out on a limb and say that if Greinke or felix pitched on the Yankees, they would have 21-22 Wins ALREADY.

CC, dude, you are a very good pitcher, you ARE NOT THE CY YOUNG..

AND, you have the best offense in baseball hitting for you, along with the fact that you are NOT pitching against the Yankees!

skrip

 

[cubsfan2513]

These are the 2 points that make it clearly Grienke to me...

1. Hernandez has a 10-3 record against teams with winning records this season while Greinke is 6-4.

2. Hernandez has a 2.15 ERA (35 earned runs in 146 1/3 innings) against teams with winning records while Greinke has a 0.57 ERA (6 earned runs in 95 innings) against teams with winning records.


A .57 Era against teams with winning records should not come out to be a 6-4 record vs winning teams. To me the only knock on Grienke is his lack of wins and this number alone shows he should have 2-3 more wins than he does because his team cant step up and get a couple of runs to get him the win.

 

[justinmandawg]

Greinke has 3 losses in which he gave up 2 or less runs.

He got 6 no decisions in which he gave 2 or less runs 2 of which he gave up 0.

 

[bradical]

Only three pitchers have won a Cy Young with fewer than 18 victories in a non-abbreviated season -- Pedro Martinez in 1997, Randy Johnson in 1991 and Brandon Webb in 2006. Johan Santana, in 2005, went 16-7 with a league-best 2.53 ERA but finished third in the voting.

 

[rymflaherty]

I voted for Greinke. I've been won over by the argument that he should win.

I had thought the whole "Grieinke has less wins and plays for a horrible team" thing was valid.....but the more I think about it - the Cy Young award is "best pitcher"......so it's not like the MVP award which becomes more subjective and everyone debates what an MVP really is. If were talking simply who pitched best there's really no way to argue against him.

 

[All The Hype]

It's Greinke's award this year, but I sure do hate not even seeing Verlander on the poll list (he's been more impressive than Sabathia this year). Verlander has 17 wins this year, a very good ERA in the low to mid 3s and leads the Majors in Strikeouts. Can't he even be put on the list as his own option instead of as an "other"?



The best thing I've heard all year was on baseball tonight the other day. Kruk was talking about this race and at that time they were talking specifically about Greinke and Sabathia (who had just come off another win).

Kruk's argument was if you put Greinke on the Yankees (a.k.a. the best team in baseball like Sabathia has had the luxury of playing on) and Sabathia on the Royals (a.k.a. one of the worst 5 teams in baseball) and then looked at what their stats would be, this race wouldn't even be close. Greinke would have at least 22 wins already with the way he's pitched to go along with the better ERA and more Ks.

 

[Topnotchsy]

I'll never understand why people think that a win against a good team is worth more than a win versus a bad team. A win is a win.

If a pitcher is 18-9 and is a perfect 12-0 versus winning teams, that means he went 6-9 versus the teams under .500. Is that a positive thing?

 

[Sly]

It's Greinke's award this year, but I sure do hate not even seeing Verlander on the poll list (he's been more impressive than Sabathia this year). Verlander has 17 wins this year, a very good ERA in the low to mid 3s and leads the Majors in Strikeouts. Can't he even be put on the list as his own option instead of as an "other"?



The best thing I've heard all year was on baseball tonight the other day. Kruk was talking about this race and at that time they were talking specifically about Greinke and Sabathia (who had just come off another win).

Kruk's argument was if you put Greinke on the Yankees (a.k.a. the best team in baseball like Sabathia has had the luxury of playing on) and Sabathia on the Royals (a.k.a. one of the worst 5 teams in baseball) and then looked at what their stats would be, this race wouldn't even be close. Greinke would have at least 22 wins already with the way he's pitched to go along with the better ERA and more Ks.

I get that there is some debate for Verlander, but I don't get any argument where he's a better choice than Greinke, CC or Felix.

Of the four, Verlander has the worst ERA, worst WHIP, worst BAA, most losses, most HRs. If all had 33 starts by now, Verlander would have the least amount of IPs.

Verlander shouldn't even really be in the discussion in the way of winning the award (which was what the poll was). Hell, I've yet to even see a good argument for why CC should get it over Felix and Greinke.

 

[bradical]

I'm floored how close CC is to Felix in this poll. The Yankee camp seems to be blinded by their own pin stripes.

 

[Sly]

I'm floored how close CC is to Felix in this poll. The Yankee camp seems to be blinded by their own pin stripes.

I don't think a lot of East Coasters know that there is baseball outside of the East Coast.

 

[fengzhang]

You've listed a lot of factors but many of them belong more in the category of "trivia" than "arguments for Felix Hernandez." In the end, it doesn't matter who has the better ERA on the fourth Wednesday of every month. Greinke has a 0.41 advantage in the ERA department for the season. This is substantial. Lower WHIP. More strikeouts. Felix Hernandez has a slight edge in wins. Frankly, the 0.41 ERA difference alone is enough to separate the two if there's not a huge difference in wins. I could point out that Greinke has more complete games, more shutouts, and many more esoteric stats but when it comes down to it, there are certain stats that carry more weight than others:

ERA, strikeouts, WHIP, BAA, wins, IP

 

[Sly]

You've listed a lot of factors but many of them belong more in the category of "trivia" than "arguments for Felix Hernandez." In the end, it doesn't matter who has the better ERA on the fourth Wednesday of every month. Greinke has a 0.41 advantage in the ERA department for the season. This is substantial. Lower WHIP. More strikeouts. Felix Hernandez has a slight edge in wins. Frankly, the 0.41 ERA difference alone is enough to separate the two if there's not a huge difference in wins. I could point out that Greinke has more complete games, more shutouts, and many more esoteric stats but when it comes down to it, there are certain stats that carry more weight than others:

ERA, strikeouts, WHIP, BAA, wins, IP

You're right, it is a lot of "trivia" that compares the two, but a lot of it is also situational statistics, which CAN BE important (how deep one pitches into games, no-decisions, quality starts, etc)...things that people don't realize, but on that, which is why at the end of the post I put the "important" stats.

I don't have ANY ISSUES at all with people saying that Greinke is the better choice, cause frankly, he probably is, when you look at the basics.

 

[rookieautos]

C.C. pitches in the hardest division

....and his stats are roughly half as good as Greinke's....

CC leads the league in wins.

 

[All The Hype]

C.C. pitches in the hardest division

....and his stats are roughly half as good as Greinke's....

CC leads the league in wins.

And he plays on the best team in baseball. Greinke plays on the second worst. You can bet that Greinke would have 22-24 wins by now if he was playing with the Yankees this season.

 

[All The Hype]

It's Greinke's award this year, but I sure do hate not even seeing Verlander on the poll list (he's been more impressive than Sabathia this year). Verlander has 17 wins this year, a very good ERA in the low to mid 3s and leads the Majors in Strikeouts. Can't he even be put on the list as his own option instead of as an "other"?



The best thing I've heard all year was on baseball tonight the other day. Kruk was talking about this race and at that time they were talking specifically about Greinke and Sabathia (who had just come off another win).

Kruk's argument was if you put Greinke on the Yankees (a.k.a. the best team in baseball like Sabathia has had the luxury of playing on) and Sabathia on the Royals (a.k.a. one of the worst 5 teams in baseball) and then looked at what their stats would be, this race wouldn't even be close. Greinke would have at least 22 wins already with the way he's pitched to go along with the better ERA and more Ks.

I get that there is some debate for Verlander, but I don't get any argument where he's a better choice than Greinke, CC or Felix.

Of the four, Verlander has the worst ERA, worst WHIP, worst BAA, most losses, most HRs. If all had 33 starts by now, Verlander would have the least amount of IPs.

Verlander shouldn't even really be in the discussion in the way of winning the award (which was what the poll was). Hell, I've yet to even see a good argument for why CC should get it over Felix and Greinke.

Yeah I understand it's about who will win, but how can CC be on the poll and Verlander not be on? Obviously there are other stats that go into this decision, but as far as I'm concerned, Verlander has had a better year than Sabathia (Sabathia has ONE more win on a far superior team, Verlander's ERA is .10 higher, but Verlander has 70 more strikeouts than Sabathia).


The way I see it, one win, two losses and 0.10 ERA difference is far overshadowed by the fact that Verlander has 70 more Ks than Sabathia (and leads the Majors). Realistically I don't think anyone but Greinke will win this award, but if you're going to talk about only including people that have a chance, I don't see how Sabathia can be on the list and Verlander not.

W/L ERA K
Verlander 17-9 3.41 256
Sabathia 18-7 3.31 186

 

[Sly]

[quote="ALL_THE_HYPE":ynk5jlpr]It's Greinke's award this year, but I sure do hate not even seeing Verlander on the poll list (he's been more impressive than Sabathia this year). Verlander has 17 wins this year, a very good ERA in the low to mid 3s and leads the Majors in Strikeouts. Can't he even be put on the list as his own option instead of as an "other"?



The best thing I've heard all year was on baseball tonight the other day. Kruk was talking about this race and at that time they were talking specifically about Greinke and Sabathia (who had just come off another win).

Kruk's argument was if you put Greinke on the Yankees (a.k.a. the best team in baseball like Sabathia has had the luxury of playing on) and Sabathia on the Royals (a.k.a. one of the worst 5 teams in baseball) and then looked at what their stats would be, this race wouldn't even be close. Greinke would have at least 22 wins already with the way he's pitched to go along with the better ERA and more Ks.

I get that there is some debate for Verlander, but I don't get any argument where he's a better choice than Greinke, CC or Felix.

Of the four, Verlander has the worst ERA, worst WHIP, worst BAA, most losses, most HRs. If all had 33 starts by now, Verlander would have the least amount of IPs.

Verlander shouldn't even really be in the discussion in the way of winning the award (which was what the poll was). Hell, I've yet to even see a good argument for why CC should get it over Felix and Greinke.

Yeah I understand it's about who will win, but how can CC be on the poll and Verlander not be on? Obviously there are other stats that go into this decision, but as far as I'm concerned, Verlander has had a better year than Sabathia (Sabathia has ONE more win on a far superior team, Verlander's ERA is .10 higher, but Verlander has 70 more strikeouts than Sabathia).


The way I see it, one win, two losses and 0.10 ERA difference is far overshadowed by the fact that Verlander has 70 more Ks than Sabathia (and leads the Majors). Realistically I don't think anyone but Greinke will win this award, but if you're going to talk about only including people that have a chance, I don't see how Sabathia can be on the list and Verlander not.

W/L ERA K
Verlander 17-9 3.41 256
Sabathia 18-7 3.31 186[/quote:ynk5jlpr]

As much as I hate to say it, and you'd hate to admit it, I think we both know why CC is on the list...Yankees.

You know that some idiot voters will vote for CC because he has the most wins and plays for the Yankees (I think that's been proven by this poll too).

Verlander won't get the love that CC will.

Frankly, it shouldn't be anyone other than Greinke and Felix as far as I'm concerned, but I had to add CC for the Yankee factor...as much as it pains me.

Either way, at this point, I won't add Verlander...but it's probably safe to assume the "others" are all for Verlander