Who is the best current non-Cy Young winning pitcher?

[MOFNY]

Haren has shown that he can be the best pitcher in the league for long stretches, usually in the first half. He has always been very undervalued. I think a big plus is that when he moved back to the AL he dominated just as much. 33 walks in 238 IP.

 

[George_Calfas]

[quote="Sam Banks":1xfrj454]It's crazy to me that Wainwright got the most 1st place votes in 2009 yet he still finished in 3rd place.


How on Earth would 15 people give him 15 3rd place votes in that season? He won 19 games and lost 8. Lincecum won 15 and lost 7. While Carpenter won 17 and lost 4.


That years voting just blows my mind.

Because people who vote on the Cy Young are smart enough to not use W-L records.

It shouldn't only be based on wins and losses, but that particular season, it's a joke that Lincecum won.

I don't know what all those symbols are supposed to mean, but it's definitely not a joke.

Lincecum had a higher WAR, better ERA, better WHIP, better K/BB rate, better K/9 rate and better H/9 rate than Wainwright. Where's the joke?[/quote:1xfrj454]

Yet you state:

Kuroda has a 3.45 ERA over 114 starts. He had a 3.07 ERA last year. Kuroda is fantastic, and could easily win 15, 16 for the Yankees. Kuroda's WAR over the last two seasons is higher both years than Hughes' best season.

Kuroda was pitching in Dodger Stadium against the NL West. Waving his ERA around is preposterous.

 

[D-Lite]

[quote="D-Lite":1ydr8gtt]

were is 200 game winner Tim Wakefield :lol:

I must have thought he had won a few Cy's back in his day.

Haha, when exactly was back in his day? Has Wakefield ever had a "day"?

And I know you're going for a larger list, but half those names just need to be X'd off. Wandy and CJ? Nice pitchers, but come on.

If you read it you would know I wanted as many solid pitchers as I could find. I tried to get at least one name from all of the teams for the sake of discussion. Many names have already been mentioned so it's tough to narrow down a list like this one.

I understand the point of the list, sure, but even including Wandy and CJ using the criteria of one from each team is reaching.

Also, about leaving out relievers, is it because you're opposed to them winning the Cy Young or just for the sake of this discussion? I think it would have to be an amazing season for a reliever to be even considered for the award, such as Gagne or Eck had.

I don't even know why I bother responding to you...it's starting pitcher only. How the hell is that hard to understand?

Who cares what pitcher is on the list? You have contributed absolutely nothing to the discussion, as per usual.[/quote:1ydr8gtt]
It was a simple question for you, sorry if you're that easily offended.

And "who cares what pitcher is on the list"? Isn't that the point of your post? Look, I'm not sure what your problem is, but in my original post I basically said I don't think a larger list makes sense if it includes pitchers that are clearly not in the discussion.

As for the best pitcher to not win, probably Weaver who's had one of the most dominating seasons in recent memory. For a pitcher I'm surprised hasn't won given the number of excellent seasons, I'd say Hudson or Oswalt whom I'd group with a guy like Mussina.

 

[hive17]

2 things:

1) Remember that, less than 2 years ago, Carlos Zambrano would be right there in this discussion.

and

2) Those symbols that Sam posted is the Picard Facepalm.

 

[D-Lite]

Over the last 3 years Edwin Jackson and Gavin Floyd have been better than half the names on that current list. Not Cy Young caliber, but better than a lot of pitchers out there.

 

[allstars]

Cole Hamels is lights-out IMHO.

 

[Wes]

[quote="Sam Banks":3136x6dr]

[quote="Sam Banks":3136x6dr]It's crazy to me that Wainwright got the most 1st place votes in 2009 yet he still finished in 3rd place.


How on Earth would 15 people give him 15 3rd place votes in that season? He won 19 games and lost 8. Lincecum won 15 and lost 7. While Carpenter won 17 and lost 4.


That years voting just blows my mind.

Because people who vote on the Cy Young are smart enough to not use W-L records.

It shouldn't only be based on wins and losses, but that particular season, it's a joke that Lincecum won.

I don't know what all those symbols are supposed to mean, but it's definitely not a joke.

Lincecum had a higher WAR, better ERA, better WHIP, better K/BB rate, better K/9 rate and better H/9 rate than Wainwright. Where's the joke?[/quote:3136x6dr]

Yet you state:

Kuroda has a 3.45 ERA over 114 starts. He had a 3.07 ERA last year. Kuroda is fantastic, and could easily win 15, 16 for the Yankees. Kuroda's WAR over the last two seasons is higher both years than Hughes' best season.

Kuroda was pitching in Dodger Stadium against the NL West. Waving his ERA around is preposterous.

[/quote:3136x6dr]

You honestly can't see the difference in the context between calling Lincecum's '09 a joke and using Kuroda's ERA to predict his success in the AL East.

 

[George_Calfas]

[quote="Sam Banks":306x9roy]

[quote="Sam Banks":306x9roy]It's crazy to me that Wainwright got the most 1st place votes in 2009 yet he still finished in 3rd place.
How on Earth would 15 people give him 15 3rd place votes in that season? He won 19 games and lost 8. Lincecum won 15 and lost 7. While Carpenter won 17 and lost 4.
That years voting just blows my mind.

Because people who vote on the Cy Young are smart enough to not use W-L records.

It shouldn't only be based on wins and losses, but that particular season, it's a joke that Lincecum won.

I don't know what all those symbols are supposed to mean, but it's definitely not a joke.
Lincecum had a higher WAR, better ERA, better WHIP, better K/BB rate, better K/9 rate and better H/9 rate than Wainwright. Where's the joke?

Yet you state:

Kuroda has a 3.45 ERA over 114 starts. He had a 3.07 ERA last year. Kuroda is fantastic, and could easily win 15, 16 for the Yankees. Kuroda's WAR over the last two seasons is higher both years than Hughes' best season.

Kuroda was pitching in Dodger Stadium against the NL West. Waving his ERA around is preposterous.

[/quote:306x9roy]
You honestly can't see the difference in the context between calling Lincecum's '09 a joke and using Kuroda's ERA to predict his success in the AL East.[/quote:306x9roy]

I get the rationale switching leagues and all; however they are all just numbers and can be tweaked to tell the story. Take the 2009 WAR stat......if you look at Pitchers only WAR Lincy is higher that Waino; however when all players are combined Waino is .1 higher than Lincy.

Lincy won the CY Young in 2009 since Waino and Carp stole votes from the other (combined total of 184).

 

[Ryan The Orange]

DISCLAIMER--I am an intense St. Louis Cardinals fan. I firmly believe Wainwright should have won the 2009 Cy Young award, and I think he would have if Kyle McClellan had not blown his 6-3 lead on October 2 that would have given him his 20th victory. In addition, Wainwright is my favorite player. He has been since 2006, and he will be my favorite player until the day he retires if not longer. I am extremely biased towards Wainwright and the Cardinals, and I will openly say that I am narrow-minded and carry the stereotypical Cardinals fan mentality of "my team is better than your team," and I am fully aware that my Redbirds are World Champions right now.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think I will go with Wainwright. Two of the best years in recent Cardinals history. Career win percentage of .653, career ERA under 3.00.

 

[Super Mario]

DISCLAIMER--I am an intense St. Louis Cardinals fan. I firmly believe Wainwright should have won the 2009 Cy Young award, and I think he would have if Kyle McClellan had not blown his 6-3 lead on October 2 that would have given him his 20th victory. In addition, Wainwright is my favorite player. He has been since 2006, and he will be my favorite player until the day he retires if not longer. I am extremely biased towards Wainwright and the Cardinals, and I will openly say that I am narrow-minded and carry the stereotypical Cardinals fan mentality of "my team is better than your team," and I am fully aware that my Redbirds are World Champions right now.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think I will go with Wainwright. Two of the best years in recent Cardinals history. Career win percentage of .653, career ERA under 3.00.

I totally forgot about KMac blowing that. I remember thinking that probably screwed him out of the Cy Young.

 

[Wes]

[quote="George_Calfas":69ed9n8o]

[quote="Sam Banks":69ed9n8o]

[quote="Sam Banks":69ed9n8o]It's crazy to me that Wainwright got the most 1st place votes in 2009 yet he still finished in 3rd place.
How on Earth would 15 people give him 15 3rd place votes in that season? He won 19 games and lost 8. Lincecum won 15 and lost 7. While Carpenter won 17 and lost 4.
That years voting just blows my mind.

Because people who vote on the Cy Young are smart enough to not use W-L records.

It shouldn't only be based on wins and losses, but that particular season, it's a joke that Lincecum won.

I don't know what all those symbols are supposed to mean, but it's definitely not a joke.
Lincecum had a higher WAR, better ERA, better WHIP, better K/BB rate, better K/9 rate and better H/9 rate than Wainwright. Where's the joke?

Yet you state:

Kuroda has a 3.45 ERA over 114 starts. He had a 3.07 ERA last year. Kuroda is fantastic, and could easily win 15, 16 for the Yankees. Kuroda's WAR over the last two seasons is higher both years than Hughes' best season.

Kuroda was pitching in Dodger Stadium against the NL West. Waving his ERA around is preposterous.

[/quote:69ed9n8o]
You honestly can't see the difference in the context between calling Lincecum's '09 a joke and using Kuroda's ERA to predict his success in the AL East.[/quote:69ed9n8o]

I get the rationale switching leagues and all; however they are all just numbers and can be tweaked to tell the story. Take the 2009 WAR stat......if you look at Pitchers only WAR Lincy is higher that Waino; however when all players are combined Waino is .1 higher than Lincy.

Lincy won the CY Young in 2009 since Waino and Carp stole votes from the other (combined total of 184).[/quote:69ed9n8o]

I still fail to see how anything you've said makes Lincecum's 2009 season "a joke" compared to Wainwright's or Carpenter's.

 

[Super Mario]

[quote="George_Calfas":2cx24wxl]

[quote="Sam Banks":2cx24wxl]

[quote="Sam Banks":2cx24wxl]It's crazy to me that Wainwright got the most 1st place votes in 2009 yet he still finished in 3rd place.
How on Earth would 15 people give him 15 3rd place votes in that season? He won 19 games and lost 8. Lincecum won 15 and lost 7. While Carpenter won 17 and lost 4.
That years voting just blows my mind.

Because people who vote on the Cy Young are smart enough to not use W-L records.

It shouldn't only be based on wins and losses, but that particular season, it's a joke that Lincecum won.

I don't know what all those symbols are supposed to mean, but it's definitely not a joke.
Lincecum had a higher WAR, better ERA, better WHIP, better K/BB rate, better K/9 rate and better H/9 rate than Wainwright. Where's the joke?

Yet you state:

Kuroda has a 3.45 ERA over 114 starts. He had a 3.07 ERA last year. Kuroda is fantastic, and could easily win 15, 16 for the Yankees. Kuroda's WAR over the last two seasons is higher both years than Hughes' best season.

Kuroda was pitching in Dodger Stadium against the NL West. Waving his ERA around is preposterous.

You honestly can't see the difference in the context between calling Lincecum's '09 a joke and using Kuroda's ERA to predict his success in the AL East.[/quote:2cx24wxl]

I get the rationale switching leagues and all; however they are all just numbers and can be tweaked to tell the story. Take the 2009 WAR stat......if you look at Pitchers only WAR Lincy is higher that Waino; however when all players are combined Waino is .1 higher than Lincy.

Lincy won the CY Young in 2009 since Waino and Carp stole votes from the other (combined total of 184).[/quote:2cx24wxl]

I still fail to see how anything you've said makes Lincecum's 2009 season "a joke" compared to Wainwright's or Carpenter's.[/quote:2cx24wxl]


I don't recall anyone saying Lincy's season was a joke. He had a good season. But it wasn't as good as Wainwright or Carp's.

 

[JoshHamilton]

Bryce Harper

 

[James52411]

Oswalt or Hudson are the best because they've provided the most sustained excellence over a large number of years. I'd probably give Oswalt the edge because he put up similar numbers while pitching half his games in a band-box. Wainwright is nasty, but he's only had 3 elite seasons. Some of the youngsters being mentioned have had even less.