Cards that are a hair small

Over the years dealing primarily with rookie cards, I've become very sensitive to cards that are a tad undersized, and have requested refunds from many sellers related to this issue. My feeling was that I would be uncomfortable selling a card that might have been trimmed, and therefore it made little sense to buy one. At the same time I was aware that there are times when a card comes small from a manufacturer. In fact, I had many cards from 2003-2004 Bowman Chrome that had issues (especially Felix Hernandez Chrome RC Auto's) and in a conversation awhile back on hos so many of them were small, someone posted that they pulled one from a pack that was small.

This lead to the obvious question, when do you worry that a card is trimmed, and when do you assume the card was cut that way. Dealing with rookies (where there is a high premium for gem copies) I've always felt it better to assume any discrepancies in size were due to trimming, but I was wondering what people felt about other cards, cards where the condition would play less of a role (say a game-used or autograph card that is not a rookie.) Is it reasonable to consider keeping and later moving such a card and assume the card was just made a bit small, or should one assume it was trimmed and either look to the seller for a refund or mention the size in a listing?

I've never received a card noticeably smaller than any others. Do you measure each card you buy?

99% of the time, trimming isn't on my mind when I buy.

rico08 said:

I've never received a card noticeably smaller than any others. Do you measure each card you buy?

99% of the time, trimming isn't on my mind when I buy.

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I can spot them just by looking, but then confirm by measuring it against another card. I'm not talking about any large amount, probably less than 1/16th of an inch.

Edit: I'm quite certain 99% of buyers would not notice but want to know from an ethical perspective considering I have noticed (but do not actually know it was trimmed, since cards are sometimes manufactured a drop small.)

Topnotchsy said:

rico08 said:

I've never received a card noticeably smaller than any others. Do you measure each card you buy?

99% of the time, trimming isn't on my mind when I buy.

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I can spot them just by looking, but then confirm by measuring it against another card. I'm not talking about any large amount, probably less than 1/16th of an inch.

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Ya, we're talking about 1/16th of an inch. I'm not worried about reselling.

rico08 said:

Topnotchsy said:

rico08 said:

I've never received a card noticeably smaller than any others. Do you measure each card you buy?

99% of the time, trimming isn't on my mind when I buy.

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I can spot them just by looking, but then confirm by measuring it against another card. I'm not talking about any large amount, probably less than 1/16th of an inch.

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Ya, we're talking about 1/16th of an inch. I'm not worried about reselling.

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I was editing my post when you responded but added this:

I'm quite certain 99% of buyers would not notice but want to know from an ethical perspective considering I have noticed (but do not actually know it was trimmed, since cards are sometimes manufactured a drop small.)

:lol: I thought this was another Cardinal thread. I expected to open up the page to read a rousing discussion over Joe McEwing, Stubby Clapp, Bo Hart, Brenden Ryan, Skip Schumaker and David Eckstein.

I bought a Heyward blue that was atleast 1/16 of ann inch short and sent it back. It was 87/150 i believe. I would not take the risk on a card worth over $50.

If this is an ethics question you should go with your gut.

If your gut is to return a smaller-than-normal card then you should measure and send back any card not normal size.

rico08 said:

If this is an ethics question you should go with your gut.

If your gut is to return a smaller-than-normal card then you should measure and send back any card not normal size.

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You return cards that are 1/16th off? Jesus. I'd lose my brain if you bought a card and returned it. When someone returns something, they still have to pay the original shipping or no?

rico08 said:

If this is an ethics question you should go with your gut.

If your gut is to return a smaller-than-normal card then you should measure and send back any card not normal size.

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I'm not really comfortable "going with my gut" if it runs counter to public opinion. I kind of feel that on a card where it is not one that people are grading anyways (which means that there is probably less reason to believe it was trimmed) I'd be less worried, though I recently sent a card into BGS because of that concern despite it being a card that is unlikely to be graded.

I do wonder though if the reason I am more comfortable is because I am less worried that the person will submit it and therefore there is less risk of it being rejected.

pigskincardboard said:

rico08 said:

If this is an ethics question you should go with your gut.

If your gut is to return a smaller-than-normal card then you should measure and send back any card not normal size.

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You return cards that are 1/16th off? Jesus. I'd lose my brain if you bought a card and returned it. When someone returns something, they still have to pay the original shipping or no?

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I would be surprised if most trim jobs are more than 1/16 of an inch, and again would be surprised if BGS did not reject a card that was 1/16 of an inch small. Trimming is a reality, and similar to steroids it is an issue that as long as people are hush-hush about, most people are willing to ignore. That said, if a card is known to be trimmed it sells for significantly less and therefore if I would believe a card is trimmed I would not consider selling it.

The challenge of course stems from the fact that companies sometimes cut the cards a bit small...

Topnotchsy said:

pigskincardboard said:

rico08 said:

If this is an ethics question you should go with your gut.

If your gut is to return a smaller-than-normal card then you should measure and send back any card not normal size.

Click to expand...

You return cards that are 1/16th off? Jesus. I'd lose my brain if you bought a card and returned it. When someone returns something, they still have to pay the original shipping or no?

Click to expand...

I would be surprised if most trim jobs are more than 1/16 of an inch, and again would be surprised if BGS did not reject a card that was 1/16 of an inch small. Trimming is a reality, and similar to steroids it is an issue that as long as people are hush-hush about, most people are willing to ignore. That said, if a card is known to be trimmed it sells for significantly less and therefore if I would believe a card is trimmed I would not consider selling it.

The challenge of course stems from the fact that companies sometimes cut the cards a bit small...

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Do you grade your cards after purchase? For me, I couldn't care less. As long as I don't know that the card is trimmed, ie. trimmed the card myself, I don't have to worry about it.

If someone returned a pack-pulled card and said that it was trimmed, I'd be very angry. eBay would obviously side with the buyer - ugh - even though he has no physical proof that the card was trimmed.

pigskincardboard said:

Topnotchsy said:

pigskincardboard said:

rico08 said:

If this is an ethics question you should go with your gut.

If your gut is to return a smaller-than-normal card then you should measure and send back any card not normal size.

Click to expand...

You return cards that are 1/16th off? Jesus. I'd lose my brain if you bought a card and returned it. When someone returns something, they still have to pay the original shipping or no?

Click to expand...

I would be surprised if most trim jobs are more than 1/16 of an inch, and again would be surprised if BGS did not reject a card that was 1/16 of an inch small. Trimming is a reality, and similar to steroids it is an issue that as long as people are hush-hush about, most people are willing to ignore. That said, if a card is known to be trimmed it sells for significantly less and therefore if I would believe a card is trimmed I would not consider selling it.

The challenge of course stems from the fact that companies sometimes cut the cards a bit small...

Click to expand...

Do you grade your cards after purchase? For me, I couldn't care less. As long as I don't know that the card is trimmed, ie. trimmed the card myself, I don't have to worry about it.

If someone returned a pack-pulled card and said that it was trimmed, I'd be very angry. eBay would obviously side with the buyer - ugh - even though he has no physical proof that the card was trimmed.

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I rarely grade cards and would never assume a card was not trimmed if it is a rookie card. There's too much benefit in trimming those for me to assume the size is based on the printing. When it comes to other cards which are less likely (IMO) to be trimmed I am less sure how to handle it. As a seller (and person) I try to be as ethical as possible, and would not want to sell something if it is flawed like this.

To this point I have never had an issue with a seller who would not take back a card (that I can recall off hand) but at that end I'd also want to know what people think as I would obviously prefer not to deal with the hassle (again with cards that are not RC cards.)

Topnotchsy said:

I rarely grade cards and would never assume a card was not graded if it is a rookie card.

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What are you trying to say in this sentence? It is not making sence to me.

gogosox40 said:

Topnotchsy said:

I rarely grade cards and would never assume a card was not graded if it is a rookie card.

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What are you trying to say in this sentence? It is not making sence to me.

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Sorry, mistyped. I meant that if the card in question was a rookie card I would always assume it was trimmed because from what I've heard that has been the primary targets of trimmers. (This would seem to make sense since those are the cards that usually offer the greatest potential gain.)

I think the felix hernandez issue proved that you are overly paranoid of receiving trimmed cards. Whether a card measures to the correct size offers no guarantee that a card is trimmed or not and you know this. I prefer to look at the edge itself and determine whether it looks "natural" or not. Fortunately, the easiest cards for this test is chrome. On the front of chrome cards, there is usually slight bubbling on the edges. Also, the edge is a bit "raised" compared to the surface of the card. I test chromes by sliding my fingerprint across the edge of the card. If it "scratches" my finger (due to the raised edge), I'm confident the edge is natural.

Another way for chrome cards is to look at the edge itself. I don't know if this is still the case but refractors (and maybe base autos) feature cleaner cuts than base chromes. This means that if you look at the edge, you can see a clean separation between the plastic and cardboard for the refractors while the plastic "blends" more with the cardboard on base chromes.

I don't worry about it. I deal with Glen Perkins RC 7 days a week and I highly doubt someone would trim them.

bear0555 said:

I think the felix hernandez issue proved that you are overly paranoid of receiving trimmed cards. Whether a card measures to the correct size offers no guarantee that a card is trimmed or not and you know this. I prefer to look at the edge itself and determine whether it looks "natural" or not. Fortunately, the easiest cards for this test is chrome. On the front of chrome cards, there is usually slight bubbling on the edges. Also, the edge is a bit "raised" compared to the surface of the card. I test chromes by sliding my fingerprint across the edge of the card. If it "scratches" my finger (due to the raised edge), I'm confident the edge is natural.

Another way for chrome cards is to look at the edge itself. I don't know if this is still the case but refractors (and maybe base autos) feature cleaner cuts than base chromes. This means that if you look at the edge, you can see a clean separation between the plastic and cardboard for the refractors while the plastic "blends" more with the cardboard on base chromes.

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It may be "paranoia" as you call it, but it's rooted in not wanting to sell some something that is defective and rip off a buyer.

Any other thoughts?

Look...realistically you can't be returning every card that is 1/16th of an inch off. Trust me when I say that the cuts can be off. You are just going to start getting blocked from bidding on people's auctions.

I hate trimmers and I really would honestly rather have a card that is in a tad worse condition than for someone to trim it. I'd still pay good money for a key rookie card. I wish people would just leave the damn things alone. But like I have said before...the grading services actually made this practice a hell of a lot more lucrative. I'd honestly like to now what to look for when it comes to noticing trimming. I'd be cool if my entire collection couldn't grade higher than a 7 as long as I knew the cards hadn't been screwed with.

predatorkj said:

Look...realistically you can't be returning every card that is 1/16th of an inch off. Trust me when I say that the cuts can be off. You are just going to start getting blocked from bidding on people's auctions.

I hate trimmers and I really would honestly rather have a card that is in a tad worse condition than for someone to trim it. I'd still pay good money for a key rookie card. I wish people would just leave the damn things alone. But like I have said before...the grading services actually made this practice a hell of a lot more lucrative. I'd honestly like to now what to look for when it comes to noticing trimming. I'd be cool if my entire collection couldn't grade higher than a 7 as long as I knew the cards hadn't been screwed with.

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To this point I've returned pretty much every card that's 1/16 of an inch off with no problems (over the years it may have been 10 cards, so figure one every six months or so, which is not all that many.)

Honestly I'd be happy to ignore the issue and sell them as is with no mention, so if this is the overwhelming public opinion, it makes my life easier. What happens when someone submits that card to BGS and it gets rejected?


(It does seem that your second statement would mean that you'd be thrilled that some people are making sure that the they sell are not smaller.)