Todd Helton; HOF or HORG ?

[buck724]

HORG

 

[scotty216brs]

He's an elite player in the HORG.

(I wouldn't be disappointed if he did indeed, make the HOF)

 

[RogerMarisCollector61]

Borderline HOFer who thinks it's okay to drive drunk and put the lives of others at risk? Remember Nick Adenhart ***hole? Hall of go away.

 

[Super Mario]

Borderline HOFer who thinks it's okay to drive drunk and put the lives of others at risk? Remember Nick Adenhart ***hole? Hall of go away.

I had no idea Todd Helton killed Nick Adenhart.

 

[U L Washington Rookie]

It's not like he was hitting .420 at home and .260 away every year.

Career Home/ Away
PA 4801/ 4600
Avg .345/ .287
OPS 1.048/ 0.856
XBH 568/ 442

Be honest, those splits are significant.

Barely 2,500 hits, played a non-premium defensive position, ~18 WAR less than Bagwell.

HORG

 

[U L Washington Rookie]

Helton and Stan Musial are the only players in major league history with at least 2,500 hits, 550 doubles, 350 home runs and a .310 or higher career batting average.

But you guys just think he's "really good?"

Yeah, those 2,505 hits that barely get him to that goofy 'stat' don't get him in. And he doesn't reach those other numbers (586/367) without the most favorable home park in the last few decades.

 

[Austin]

Career Home/ Away
PA 4801/ 4600
Avg .345/ .287
OPS 1.048/ 0.856
XBH 568/ 442

Be honest, those splits are significant.

Wade Boggs
Avg. .369 at Fenway/.307 away.
OPS+ 118 at Fenway/82 on the road

That's a bigger home/away gap than Helton.
But does anyone question the HOF merits of Boggs, who was a one-dimensional player?

 

[kerryfan5]

Wade Boggs
Avg. .369 at Fenway/.307 away.
OPS+ 118 at Fenway/82 on the road

That's a bigger home/away gap than Helton.
But does anyone question the HOF merits of Boggs, who was a one-dimensional player?

Ahh no. Boggs 3000 hits Helton 2505. Mr Helton is in the HORG.

 

[Austin]

Ahh no. Boggs 3000 hits Helton 2505. Mr Helton is in the HORG.

No kidding Boggs has 3,000 hits.
My point was Boggs has worse home/away splits than Helton. It was a counter-argument to UL Washington's post that Helton's home/away splits are bad because of Coors Field.
Boggs are worse at Fenway than Helton's at Coors.

 

[U L Washington Rookie]

Wade Boggs
Avg. .369 at Fenway/.307 away.
OPS+ 118 at Fenway/82 on the road

That's a bigger home/away gap than Helton.
But does anyone question the HOF merits of Boggs, who was a one-dimensional player?

Different eras
Boggs' defense in worth a bunch and Helton's takes away from his argument (I.e., not one-dimensional)
Etc

 

[U L Washington Rookie]

No kidding Boggs has 3,000 hits.
My point was Boggs has worse home/away splits than Helton. It was a counter-argument to UL Washington's post that Helton's home/away splits are bad because of Coors Field.
Boggs are worse at Fenway than Helton's at Coors.

Actually, mine countered your poor argument that Helton's splits weren't as significant as people assumed.

 

[Austin]

Actually, mine countered your poor argument that Helton's splits weren't as significant as people assumed.

I'm saying playing in Coors Field should not be a negative to a player's Hall of Fame chances, when playing in Fenway park is just as advantageous.

Wade Boggs' hit 62 points higher at Fenway, and his home/away splits are worse than Helton's.
He was a .307 Mark Grace hitter away from Fenway.

Ted Williams hit 33 points higher at Fenway than away. (Still great: .361/.328)

Carl Yastrzemski hit 42 points higher at Fenway.
He only hit .264 away, and may not even be a Hall of Famer if he wasn't a Red Sox.

In Jim Rice's 1978 MVP season, he hit .361 at home and .269 away.
That's a .92 point home/away split.

So my argument is, yes, playing at Coors Field is an offensive advantage.
But it's no worse than Fenway Park, yet Colorado players get all the negativity.

If you think Helton is not a Hall of Famer, that's perfectly fine and I respect that.
I think he is a HOFer, but it will take him 10+ years to make it like Jim Rice, Orlando Cepeda, Ron Santo, etc.

 

[theacox]

I have really enjoyed watching Todd play, but he's not an HOFer in my book.

 

[Laxcat]

Jim Rice and Cepeda had one thing in common. They were a-holes, but especially to the press, I'm not sure about Santo. But isn't veterans committee sort of like the HORG?

 

[RStadlerASU22]

No kidding Boggs has 3,000 hits.
My point was Boggs has worse home/away splits than Helton. It was a counter-argument to UL Washington's post that Helton's home/away splits are bad because of Coors Field.
Boggs are worse at Fenway than Helton's at Coors.

That .307 is better than the .287 , you can say the split isn't as big, but that extra .20 is big and it's gets the 3000 hits which is key if your comparing those two players and the avg stat

But I wouldn't be mad either way I like TH

Ryan

 

[U L Washington Rookie]

I'm saying playing in Coors Field should not be a negative to a player's Hall of Fame chances, when playing in Fenway park is just as advantageous.

Wade Boggs' hit 62 points higher at Fenway, and his home/away splits are worse than Helton's.
He was a .307 Mark Grace hitter away from Fenway.

Ted Williams hit 33 points higher at Fenway than away. (Still great: .361/.328)

Carl Yastrzemski hit 42 points higher at Fenway.
He only hit .264 away, and may not even be a Hall of Famer if he wasn't a Red Sox.

In Jim Rice's 1978 MVP season, he hit .361 at home and .269 away.
That's a .92 point home/away split.

So my argument is, yes, playing at Coors Field is an offensive advantage.
But it's no worse than Fenway Park, yet Colorado players get all the negativity.

If you think Helton is not a Hall of Famer, that's perfectly fine and I respect that.
I think he is a HOFer, but it will take him 10+ years to make it like Jim Rice, Orlando Cepeda, Ron Santo, etc.

Both Coors and Fenway tend to help hitters and should be considered accordingly. I certainly consider Fenway to aid hitters and adjust 'accordingly'. If it wasn't considered by voters in the past, well, that's the past. No sense compounding a mistake.

Coors has tended to be more advantageous than Fenway, I believe. But now you have the humidor and there are other factors that change throughout time. Red Sox players are aided by teaming up with a DH (better total team stats leads to more PAs and other opportunities), so there's that, too.

Also, isolating only Avg makes for a pretty weak point.

All that to say that your got away from the first point about Helton that I responded to (that his splits weren't all that big) being misleading. I was talking only about Helton, as each guy should be evaluated on his own merits, in my opinion.

 

[Austin]

That .307 is better than the .287 , you can say the split isn't as big, but that extra .20 is big and it's gets the 3000 hits which is key if your comparing those two players and the avg stat

Again, I'm not comparing Boggs and Helton as Hall of Famers.
Boggs is a definite 1st ballot Hall of Famer with his multiple batting titles and 3,000 hits.
Helton is borderline.

I'm comparing the home/away splits of Coors Field vs. Fenway Park.
Everybody says Coors Field players have inflated stats.
They do, but so do Boston players at Fenway Park, to a similar degree.

For instance, David Ortiz hits .40 better at home over his career, .306 to .266.
Dustin Pedroia hits .32 points higher at Fenway, .318 to .286.

And similar numbers can be seen in my post above with Red Sox Hall of Famers, Ted Williams, Carl Yastrzemski, Wade Boggs and Jim Rice.

I just don't think that Colorado players, including Tulowitzski and Carlos Gonzalez, should be singled out and thought lesser of because they play at Coors Field.

 

[scotty216brs]

Actually, mine countered your poor argument that Helton's splits weren't as significant as people assumed.

Can you resize your sig? Thanks.....

 

[Lars]

1.) The only time the Fenway Park argument is really ever used is to discredit Jim Rice's career.

2.) The first Rockie in the Hall of Fame will be Troy Tulowitzki.

 

[Huffamaniac]

Good point on Boggs. Check out Yaz's home and away splits. They are pretty shocking. Helton. Gets my vote

Hall of Fame.
People criticize him for playing at Coors Field, but it's not his fault he played his entire career in Colorado.
Does a player have to hit like Babe Ruth to break the Coors Field stigma?
Is Tulowitski not really a great player? Or Carlos Gonzalez?

And Helton was still a premier hitter away from Coors.

In 2000, when he hit .372, he hit .391 at home and .353 away.
In 2003, when he hit .356, he hit .391 at home and .324 away.
In 2004, when he hit .347, he hit .368 at home and .326 away.

It's not like he was hitting .420 at home and .260 away every year.
Sure there were a few lopsided years in which Helton hit much better at home, but a lot of players hit better at home.

For instance, Wade Boggs, who was elected first ballot as a no-doubt Hall of Famer, was greatly aided by Fenway Park.
During Boggs' Red Sox years from 1982-1992, he hit .369 at home and only .307 away.
So why is Helton penalized but Boggs and other great hitters are not?

I think Helton will be elected, but he'll have to wait a long time.