Roger Clemens' place in the Hobby........ Seriously

[bighurt]

I will give this one a bump a few years later. I have been a long time Clemens collector (since the late 80's) I already have most of the good stuff, so my pickups have become fewer and fewer as the years go by. Some observations: Upper level Clemens cards still sell well and for high prices. PMG, Titanium Fusion and 99 ruby's seem to be the "new" cards to get.

as far as PED use, there was really no evidence against clemens. no credible witness, no failed test and no addmission. people got told the same thing over and over and over and over... on ESPN at the time and his case got lumped in with Bonds/McGwire etc.

like the old saying goes, A lie, if told long enough becomes the truth.

 

[joey12508]

according to an excerpt from the Mitchell Report. McNamee told Mitchell that he injected Clemens with steroids or human growth hormone — banned by Major League Baseball — in 1998, when Clemens pitched for the Toronto Blue Jays, and in 2000 and 2001, when Clemens played for the New York Yankees.

 

[heavy_hitter]

I always laugh thinking about how the government screwed up the case against Clemens.

Judge: Prosecution, don't show that video of Andy Pettitte.

Prosecution: (shows video of Andy Pettitte).

Mistrial declared.

Judge declares mistrial in Clemens perjury case

The judge presiding over Roger Clemens' perjury trial declared a mistrial over evidence revealed to the jury that he believed would prejudice the jury against the former baseball star.

www.espn.com

 

[DaClyde]

I don't think the hobby cares about any of this. The only players that seem to get abandoned by collectors are those who end up in jail for something more serious, usually violent.

 

[Philip J. Fry]

I don't think the hobby cares about any of this. The only players that seem to get abandoned by collectors are those who end up in jail for something more serious, usually violent.

Yet there are those who still collect Wander Franco.

 

[banjar]

The statement that "Clemens used PEDs" does not become a lie just because it hasn't been proven.

like the old saying goes, A lie, if told long enough becomes the truth.

 

[mrmopar]

I don't think the hobby cares about any of this. The only players that seem to get abandoned by collectors are those who end up in jail for something more serious, usually violent.

I can't think of a star level player who did something truly hideous and suffered a total shunning on the hobby side. In the end, these are professional athletes who excelled in their field. They are humans and humans are flawed. On the other side, people collect things. Actions may influence price, but people are still going to collect.

I mean, you'd have to be an idiot to toss out your OJ Simpson (or insert other "bad" player here) cards/memorabilia because of what happened, especially if you collected any of these scandalous players with any level of seriousness.

 

[jmc855]

The statement that "Clemens used PEDs" does not become a lie just because it hasn't been proven.

seems like a tough intellectual place to stand.....especially in western society. As long as somebody says so about you, its true...... nah. Literally nothing anyone said held up in a court.... twice.

 

[banjar]

Come on now. I'm not saying that just because a claim was made against Clemens, it is true. What I'm saying is that just because it wasn't proven in court doesn't mean it's a lie. It's quite a solid intellectual place to stand. Let me explain.

Let's imagine a hypothetical statement with the same structure as "Clemens used PEDs". I dunno, how about if you claimed "Banjar ate a skunk". But neither you nor a prosecutor can prove that I ate a skunk to the satisfaction of a U.S. court of law. So that statement is therefore a lie?

No, obviously not. Of course I could have eaten a skunk at some point in my life, regardless of the fact that a specific legal team could not prove it in a specific court.

seems like a tough intellectual place to stand.....especially in western society. As long as somebody says so about you, its true...... nah. Literally nothing anyone said held up in a court.... twice.

 

[JVHaste]

After hearing both sides of the argument and taking much time for deliberation I've come to the irrefutable conclusion that Roger Clemens eats skunk and Banjar took roids to lengthen his MLB career.

 

[jmc855]

After hearing both sides of the argument and taking much time for deliberation I've come to the irrefutable conclusion that Roger Clemens eats skunk and Banjar took roids to lengthen his MLB career.

Well, see? All the facts came to light!

 

[jmc855]

Come on now. I'm not saying that just because a claim was made against Clemens, it is true. What I'm saying is that just because it wasn't proven in court doesn't mean it's a lie. It's quite a solid intellectual place to stand. Let me explain.

Let's imagine a hypothetical statement with the same structure as "Clemens used PEDs". I dunno, how about if you claimed "Banjar ate a skunk". But neither you nor a prosecutor can prove that I ate a skunk to the satisfaction of a U.S. court of law. So that statement is therefore a lie?

No, obviously not. Of course I could have eaten a skunk at some point in my life, regardless of the fact that a specific legal team could not prove it in a specific court.

I get what youre saying. Issue is, if its trivial like "Jmc855 ate a lollipop ", your example might work anecdotally, but not as a legal standard,which is the end of the line for all truths that matter (ask OJ) . But when its injurious to one's reputation (and thus identity, image, brand and personal property) to say such a thing and NOT meet a burden of legal proof, thats called slander, or libel depending on the medium and has consequences for the accuser due to the impact on the accused. As a western society built on individual property right tenets of Lockian ideals surrounding all of us earning and keeping the fruits of our labors (Clemens' being his actions of labor as a pitcher and his accululated accolades), this means the legal burden of proof is critical, and in fact, the truemeasure of fact. IMO after the government's own information was proven unable to meet a stabnard of proof to convict on anything as truth TWICE in fèderal courts, he should have sought defamation recompense as his value has CLEARLY been lowered by not being allowed in the HOF after being falsely accused.

 

[joey12508]

the question that matters is if you care that he cheated. not IF he cheated. many in that era did. great book "Game of Shadows"
a eye opener. many are still loved because no definitive proof. some are singled out and hated. some think their numbers were enhanced in clemens case and bonds more so as they got older. so is a lie a lie? or who's lie do you believe, and does it matter to you.

 

[jmc855]

the question that matters is if you care that he cheated. not IF he cheated. many in that era did. great book "Game of Shadows"
a eye opener. many are still loved because no definitive proof. some are singled out and hated. some think their numbers were enhanced in clemens case and bonds more so as they got older. so is a lie a lie? or who's lie do you believe, and does it matter to you.

Interesting. I ll give it a read. But are you saying that its simply asserted that he cheated and thus, he did? And its not allowed to be proven or disproven, but only up for dispute is what we each believe?? That in itself would seem like a lie, and only George Castanza could justify it....

 

[joey12508]

Interesting. I ll give it a read. But are you saying that its simply asserted that he cheated and thus, he did? And its not allowed to be proven or disproven, but only up for dispute is what we each believe?? That in itself would seem like a lie, and only George Castanza could justify it....

there were 103 players who tested positive, on the infamous test MLB did before it was illegal. only one name leaked, AROD. funny no one else. some who took that test are in the hall of fame now. the players who took that test was like a whos who of star players. Big Papi, Clemens, Bonds,Piazza and many others suspected but never proven. sometimes a lie becomes a mute point. where all who did or who didnt
wont matter.

 

[jmc855]

there were 103 players who tested positive, on the infamous test MLB did before it was illegal. only one name leaked, AROD. funny no one else. some who took that test are in the hall of fame now. the players who took that test was like a whos who of star players. Big Papi, Clemens, Bonds,Piazza and many others suspected but never proven. sometimes a lie becomes a mute point. where all who did or who didnt
wont matter.

Sadly, no PEDs were even needed, just take hitting advice from the Special Aassistant.