2011 Ginter Code: Let's Get Started.

[schmidtfan20]

There are 83,000+ anagrams you can make from Reginald V. Thorpwell

 

[Kojack84]

would love to hear if folks have two other clocks besides the 10 i already listed. here is another fun tidbit I've shared with a few others, but I think is probably meaningless. There is an anagram in the first tweet from the codemaster:

Reginald V. Thorpwell III = I will provide large hint

Do you know who the Navigational Star is?

 

[poppudaimadochi]

Do you know who the Navigational Star is?

I believe it's the center of the clock; as was stated before and in the tweets, the "parallel" base cards don't have to be used for the code, it "just does not compute"...

 

[wickedliquids]

Does anyone know what the times are on the 11th and 12th card clue cards?

Wait, TWELVE??

Saw your tweets, you are pretty close right?


Oh, and it has nothing to do with birthdays: it was just used as an example for the switch between date and time... God, you guys are going to force me to reveal everything I know haha

I'm getting there - slowly but surely


By the way, could someone please provide a scan of the code card with the hands showing 6:17 and 6:13 please?

 

[poppudaimadochi]

Does anyone know what the times are on the 11th and 12th card clue cards?

Wait, TWELVE??

Saw your tweets, you are pretty close right?


Oh, and it has nothing to do with birthdays: it was just used as an example for the switch between date and time... God, you guys are going to force me to reveal everything I know haha

I'm getting there - slowly but surely


By the way, could someone please provide a scan of the code card with the hands showing 6:17 and 6:13 please?

Never heard of 6:17; if you're referring to the tweet about 6:17, that was just the time at which the Codemaster's tweet was posted that day. Same thing as the 11:27 "communique" about Rollins.

 

[schmidtfan20]

the point of the tweets are to tell us to reverse the numbers in the mirror...or could it be more?

 

[wickedliquids]

Does anyone know what the times are on the 11th and 12th card clue cards?

Wait, TWELVE??

Saw your tweets, you are pretty close right?


Oh, and it has nothing to do with birthdays: it was just used as an example for the switch between date and time... God, you guys are going to force me to reveal everything I know haha

I'm getting there - slowly but surely


By the way, could someone please provide a scan of the code card with the hands showing 6:17 and 6:13 please?

Never heard of 6:17; if you're referring to the tweet about 6:17, that was just the time at which the Codemaster's tweet was posted that day. Same thing as the 11:27 "communique" about Rollins.

DUH! my bad You're right ::facepalm::

 

[wheels56]

Okay, I'll try to respond to a number of inquiries and provide some more thoughts.

First, on the anagram, yes there are 83,000 possibilities, but I'd be surprised if there are more than a few that make much sense, and further, that make sense in this context. Anyway, suppose it could just be a coincidence.

Second, I am pretty sure there are only 10 clocks. Would be thrilled for someone to prove me wrong though...

Third, in translating times to dates, yes, 9:42 is problematic. So is 4:00 though. I have tried a number of different approaches to solving the code by translating those 2 times to dates with the following logic: 9:42 = Sept 42nd... aka... Oct 12th. Hence, 4:00 = March 31st, April 60th or April 100th. Nothing has worked though. That said, I agree that a strict translation to dates might not be the right answer. In no case is there a perfect fit of the clock times to birth dates of players in the 2011 set (3 players born on 7/27, none born on 1/11, etc). The 6:17 tweet is interesting. The Codemaster links 6:17 to Boston. I have a database of birthdays for everyone in the set -- no one born on 6/17. However, for any of you that are a part of Red Sox nation, you'll know that the area code for boston is 617. What does it all mean? Who knows? My suspicion though is that the clocks are a set of coordinates of some sort -- navigation seems to be the theme for this years code and set.

Fourth, no, I don't know who/what the navigational star is. To show you how crazy I've gone over this thing though, I can tell you this: the vernal equinox (first point of aries) occurred in NY on 3/20 at 19:21. At that time, the moon was just above the horizon, almost due east. seriously. btw, there isn't a code card with values of 3, 20, 19, 21. Tried that too...

Fifth, I think it is going too far to say the code cards and the decipher cards aren't part of the code. I'm 99% certain they are. I think the codemaster is simply saying that the completed puzzle isn't part of the answer. My hunch is that what is important is that the decipher cards can be used to assign a value to each of the code cards. It is these values that are important, not piecing them together to form the 10x20 grid with the 5x10 appendage centered on the bottom.

Finally, a fun fact about the poem. Including the spaces between words, it is 360 characters long (and 10 lines).

 

[poppudaimadochi]

Okay, I'll try to respond to a number of inquiries and provide some more thoughts.

First, on the anagram, yes there are 83,000 possibilities, but I'd be surprised if there are more than a few that make much sense, and further, that make sense in this context. Anyway, suppose it could just be a coincidence.

Second, I am pretty sure there are only 10 clocks. Would be thrilled for someone to prove me wrong though...

Third, in translating times to dates, yes, 9:42 is problematic. So is 4:00 though. I have tried a number of different approaches to solving the code by translating those 2 times to dates with the following logic: 9:42 = Sept 42nd... aka... Oct 12th. Hence, 4:00 = March 31st, April 60th or April 100th. Nothing has worked though. That said, I agree that a strict translation to dates might not be the right answer. In no case is there a perfect fit of the clock times to birth dates of players in the 2011 set (3 players born on 7/27, none born on 1/11, etc). The 6:17 tweet is interesting. The Codemaster links 6:17 to Boston. I have a database of birthdays for everyone in the set -- no one born on 6/17. However, for any of you that are a part of Red Sox nation, you'll know that the area code for boston is 617. What does it all mean? Who knows? My suspicion though is that the clocks are a set of coordinates of some sort -- navigation seems to be the theme for this years code and set.

Fourth, no, I don't know who/what the navigational star is. To show you how crazy I've gone over this thing though, I can tell you this: the vernal equinox (first point of aries) occurred in NY on 3/20 at 19:21. At that time, the moon was just above the horizon, almost due east. seriously. btw, there isn't a code card with values of 3, 20, 19, 21. Tried that too...

Fifth, I think it is going too far to say the code cards and the decipher cards aren't part of the code. I'm 99% certain they are. I think the codemaster is simply saying that the completed puzzle isn't part of the answer. My hunch is that what is important is that the decipher cards can be used to assign a value to each of the code cards. It is these values that are important, not piecing them together to form the 10x20 grid with the 5x10 appendage centered on the bottom.

Finally, a fun fact about the poem. Including the spaces between words, it is 360 characters long (and 10 lines).

Ok, so since it is out there, I can finally say it: the 6:17 tweet does refer to the area code of Boston, which leads me to believe the domain we have to reach is a phone number.

Also, the first point of Aries is 3/20, but the code master admits mixing dates and times, as per the Jimmy Rollins tweet. So the reference point on the clocks is 3:20, and we have to go east from there. And what do you know: 4:00 in a mirror looks like 8:00, could it be a 1-800 number?? Also don't forget that 4:00 can be read 3:60...

Would you mind sharing the values on the decipher cards then? Maybe not publicly but to a list of people via PM?

 

[Kojack84]

Okay, I'll try to respond to a number of inquiries and provide some more thoughts.

First, on the anagram, yes there are 83,000 possibilities, but I'd be surprised if there are more than a few that make much sense, and further, that make sense in this context. Anyway, suppose it could just be a coincidence.

Second, I am pretty sure there are only 10 clocks. Would be thrilled for someone to prove me wrong though...

Third, in translating times to dates, yes, 9:42 is problematic. So is 4:00 though. I have tried a number of different approaches to solving the code by translating those 2 times to dates with the following logic: 9:42 = Sept 42nd... aka... Oct 12th. Hence, 4:00 = March 31st, April 60th or April 100th. Nothing has worked though. That said, I agree that a strict translation to dates might not be the right answer. In no case is there a perfect fit of the clock times to birth dates of players in the 2011 set (3 players born on 7/27, none born on 1/11, etc). The 6:17 tweet is interesting. The Codemaster links 6:17 to Boston. I have a database of birthdays for everyone in the set -- no one born on 6/17. However, for any of you that are a part of Red Sox nation, you'll know that the area code for boston is 617. What does it all mean? Who knows? My suspicion though is that the clocks are a set of coordinates of some sort -- navigation seems to be the theme for this years code and set.

Fourth, no, I don't know who/what the navigational star is. To show you how crazy I've gone over this thing though, I can tell you this: the vernal equinox (first point of aries) occurred in NY on 3/20 at 19:21. At that time, the moon was just above the horizon, almost due east. seriously. btw, there isn't a code card with values of 3, 20, 19, 21. Tried that too...

Fifth, I think it is going too far to say the code cards and the decipher cards aren't part of the code. I'm 99% certain they are. I think the codemaster is simply saying that the completed puzzle isn't part of the answer. My hunch is that what is important is that the decipher cards can be used to assign a value to each of the code cards. It is these values that are important, not piecing them together to form the 10x20 grid with the 5x10 appendage centered on the bottom.

Finally, a fun fact about the poem. Including the spaces between words, it is 360 characters long (and 10 lines).

Ok, so since it is out there, I can finally say it: the 6:17 tweet does refer to the area code of Boston, which leads me to believe the domain we have to reach is a phone number.

Also, the first point of Aries is 3/20, but the code master admits mixing dates and times, as per the Jimmy Rollins tweet. So the reference point on the clocks is 3:20, and we have to go east from there. And what do you know: 4:00 in a mirror looks like 8:00, could it be a 1-800 number?? Also don't forget that 4:00 can be read 3:60...

Would you mind sharing the values on the decipher cards then? Maybe not publicly but to a list of people via PM?

Interesting info. Good to know the 617 area code is Boston. 3/20 = 320 = Minnesota area code.

The "decipher" cards are 1-30. They are used to arrange the parallel cards into a giant puzzle, with 15 rows. However I have not used them at all. I think it's a giant trick to keep people off track (similar to last years celestial stars).

I have the navigational star nailed down to 2 possible players.

I just can't find out how to link the clocks to anything useful. Are they indexes for a letter? Do they somehow translate to numbers/letters? As you mentioned they don't all correlate to birthdays.

 

[poppudaimadochi]

Interesting info. Good to know the 617 area code is Boston. 3/20 = 320 = Minnesota area code.

The "decipher" cards are 1-30. They are used to arrange the parallel cards into a giant puzzle, with 15 rows. However I have not used them at all. I think it's a giant trick to keep people off track (similar to last years celestial stars).

I have the navigational star nailed down to 2 possible players.

I just can't find out how to link the clocks to anything useful. Are they indexes for a letter? Do they somehow translate to numbers/letters? As you mentioned they don't all correlate to birthdays.

I do not believe it has anything to do with birthdays, because they used birthdays for last year's code. And I think we shouldn't look for the directional star to be a specific player. If you take the center of the clock as the directional star, then going east from 3:20 sends you towards either:

-- 3:15, 3:14, 2:20, 1:19, 1:14, 1:11

-- 4:00, 6:13, 7:27, 9:42

I find it weird that they are grouped 6/4 and not 5/5 though. I guess we should wait the additional clues that are due before monday.

About the decipher cards, are there really 30 different ones? And if there really is a 10x20 and a 5x10 puzzle, that makes 250 cards used in the puzzle and 100 cards are left out of it, right?


Edit: found this on the beckett boards: http://www.beckett.com/forums/thread-1456922.html

Just feel I needed to post something about feeling misled and thinking I was on to something which apparently is now just a coincidence. After spending many hours gathering and putting the pieces of the patterns together, I tried to figure out the Codemasters poems- http://twitter.com/#!/TheGinterCode - using the puzzle.

At the first point of Aries do you stand now - After trying a number of things, the first Point of Aries is on March 20th - 3/20. Looking at the puzzle, #320 Jon Lester is in the bottom row near the middle which leads to the second line - The sky stretching west to east before your bow. Ok, it's all in front of me.

Your Navigational Star is directly ahead is the next line. I kept trying to fit that with Ichiro, you know Navigational Star - Mariner's star player but it didn't fit because Ichiro was elsewhere in the puzzle but not directly ahead. However, going up Lester's column was "Leo" Nunez and Torii Hunter "Orion the Hunter"! Maybe on the right track in keeping with the constellation theme! Also in the column was not one but 2 Hudsons - Tim and Daniel! Bingo! Navigational Star - Hudson (Henry!) which goes nicely with the next line - And beckons you east, so go where you're led. Henry Hudson explored areas of New York and Canada - East!

But now I had some problems wondering on what to do next. The next two lines were - Find the keys to the doors; Turn them all and our domain is yours. I was pretty sure the clocks had something to do with it. I then used the times that I had on the clocks 1:11, 1:14, 2:20, 3:14, 3:15, 4:00, 7:27, 9:42 and used the hour number to count rows up and the minutes number to count to the right (East!) on the puzzle. Doing that gave me the First Letters of the last names of the cards that were in those spots - M, D, C, B, Z, W, M, X which , of course, mean nothing.

However, if you use the substitution pattern that was needed to decipher the Mike Gellner PP2 card, the letters change to R, I, H, G, E, B, R, C. That looks like something to work with. One of the combinations is Rich Berg. I tried looking up the name but it didn't seem to have relevance. What if it wasn't a name? Rich berg - berg as in let's blow this burg, iceberg, floating alone, island! Rich island! Manhattan! And what do you know - Manhattan happens to be right along the Hudson River!

Turned the keys and found Manhattan! Typed in Keys to Manhattan and found a downloadable game by the same name! You look through Manhattan to find treasures! This must be it! I played a little of the game which is somewhat simplistic but didn't find anything that would seem appropriate. But it all seemed to fit! I was still trying to figure it out when this post comes along - If you've put the puzzle together I hope you find it a beaut, because using it to solve the Ginter Code just does not compute!

Are you kidding me!!!! All that time put in! And it doesn't even figure in to the solution! All I've got to say then is that everything I've laid out above is really a heck of a coincidence! Thanks for reading my rant. Didn't want all of this work to go by without at least putting it out there!

 

[wheels56]

sorry, the puzzle is 10x30 (not 20) with a 5X10 appendage on the bottom. It looks like this (g = gold, b = black):

ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
...................gggggggggg
...................gggggggggg
...................gggggggggg
...................gggggggggg
...................gggggggggg


Also, the bottom appendage is made up of cards 301-350, not in any particular order.

 

[poppudaimadochi]

sorry, the puzzle is 10x30 (not 20) with a 5X10 appendage on the bottom. It looks like this (g = gold, b = black):

ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
...................gggggggggg
...................gggggggggg
...................gggggggggg
...................gggggggggg
...................gggggggggg


Also, the bottom appendage is made up of cards 301-350, not in any particular order.

Thanks for posting; how do you establish the "gb" connection? Also, how many cards are there like the Brandon Phillips with only 3 corners? I can't see them fit anywhere on that map...

 

[miguelcabrera]

crazy this thing hasnt been solved yet
617 is boston area code
wonder if crazy code breakers like nick jacoby and matchpenalty are working on this as i type

 

[wheels56]

sorry, the puzzle is 10x30 (not 20) with a 5X10 appendage on the bottom. It looks like this (g = gold, b = black):

ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
...................gggggggggg
...................gggggggggg
...................gggggggggg
...................gggggggggg
...................gggggggggg


Also, the bottom appendage is made up of cards 301-350, not in any particular order.

Thanks for posting; how do you establish the "gb" connection? Also, how many cards are there like the Brandon Phillips with only 3 corners? I can't see them fit anywhere on that map...

for instance, in the second row of the puzzle, the tenth (or eleventh, can't recall off top of my head) card has two gold symbols on the top left and bottom left, it also has two black symbols on the top right and bottom right. That forms the border between black and gold. Same basic idea at the bottom of the puzzle. for the cards with 3 symbols, there are two. if you look at the puzzle, they are the ones that form the connection of the top part of the puzzle to the lower appendage. Said another way, they are the far right and far left cards in the 11th row.

 

[poppudaimadochi]

sorry, the puzzle is 10x30 (not 20) with a 5X10 appendage on the bottom. It looks like this (g = gold, b = black):

ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
...................gggggggggg
...................gggggggggg
...................gggggggggg
...................gggggggggg
...................gggggggggg


Also, the bottom appendage is made up of cards 301-350, not in any particular order.

Thanks for posting; how do you establish the "gb" connection? Also, how many cards are there like the Brandon Phillips with only 3 corners? I can't see them fit anywhere on that map...

for instance, in the second row of the puzzle, the tenth (or eleventh, can't recall off top of my head) card has two gold symbols on the top left and bottom left, it also has two black symbols on the top right and bottom right. That forms the border between black and gold. Same basic idea at the bottom of the puzzle. for the cards with 3 symbols, there are two. if you look at the puzzle, they are the ones that form the connection of the top part of the puzzle to the lower appendage. Said another way, they are the far right and far left cards in the 11th row.

That would kind of make sense, but the Phillips has 3 black corners, right? Therefore it cannot be the connection between the top "black" puzzle and the bottom "gold" one. Unless you want to put face to face symbols of different colors, which seem to defeat the purpose of having 2 separate colors to begin with...

 

[Kojack84]

sorry, the puzzle is 10x30 (not 20) with a 5X10 appendage on the bottom. It looks like this (g = gold, b = black):

ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
...................gggggggggg
...................gggggggggg
...................gggggggggg
...................gggggggggg
...................gggggggggg


Also, the bottom appendage is made up of cards 301-350, not in any particular order.

Thanks for posting; how do you establish the "gb" connection? Also, how many cards are there like the Brandon Phillips with only 3 corners? I can't see them fit anywhere on that map...

for instance, in the second row of the puzzle, the tenth (or eleventh, can't recall off top of my head) card has two gold symbols on the top left and bottom left, it also has two black symbols on the top right and bottom right. That forms the border between black and gold. Same basic idea at the bottom of the puzzle. for the cards with 3 symbols, there are two. if you look at the puzzle, they are the ones that form the connection of the top part of the puzzle to the lower appendage. Said another way, they are the far right and far left cards in the 11th row.

That would kind of make sense, but the Phillips has 3 black corners, right? Therefore it cannot be the connection between the top "black" puzzle and the bottom "gold" one. Unless you want to put face to face symbols of different colors, which seem to defeat the purpose of having 2 separate colors to begin with...

The Phillips card does but up against a gold corner (Bumgarner).

The way the puzzle goes together, you are forced to do that.

 

[wheels56]

sorry, the puzzle is 10x30 (not 20) with a 5X10 appendage on the bottom. It looks like this (g = gold, b = black):

ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
ggggggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
...................gggggggggg
...................gggggggggg
...................gggggggggg
...................gggggggggg
...................gggggggggg


Also, the bottom appendage is made up of cards 301-350, not in any particular order.

Thanks for posting; how do you establish the "gb" connection? Also, how many cards are there like the Brandon Phillips with only 3 corners? I can't see them fit anywhere on that map...

for instance, in the second row of the puzzle, the tenth (or eleventh, can't recall off top of my head) card has two gold symbols on the top left and bottom left, it also has two black symbols on the top right and bottom right. That forms the border between black and gold. Same basic idea at the bottom of the puzzle. for the cards with 3 symbols, there are two. if you look at the puzzle, they are the ones that form the connection of the top part of the puzzle to the lower appendage. Said another way, they are the far right and far left cards in the 11th row.

That would kind of make sense, but the Phillips has 3 black corners, right? Therefore it cannot be the connection between the top "black" puzzle and the bottom "gold" one. Unless you want to put face to face symbols of different colors, which seem to defeat the purpose of having 2 separate colors to begin with...

The Phillips card does but up against a gold corner (Bumgarner).

The way the puzzle goes together, you are forced to do that.

Apologies, gang. I unintentionally confused everyone. I went back and looked at the puzzle (rather than trying to recall from memory) and have the straight story.

1) There aren't any cards with both colors on them. They are all gold or all black. So, my little schematic above is actually correct. The color breaks actually occur with symbols (not cards) made up of both colors. For example, in row 3, the Rudy card has all gold symbols. The card to its immediate right in the puzzle is Elvis Andrus. The symbols on the Andrus card are all black, but the 2 symbols on the left hand side of the Andrus card and the 2 on the right hand side of the Rudy card match.

2) For the Phillips card, same deal. The symbols are all black, but the card directly below it (Bumgarner) has all gold. The symbol on the bottom of the Phillips card however matches the symbol on the top of the Bumgarner card.

My bad. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Guest]

4 new lines to the puzzle.
Any more help you may need has already been spoken, decode my first poem and the code will be broken #thegintercode
7 minutes ago

TheGinterCode Ginter Code
Our domain is oft visited when collectors explore, you'll find the keys all fit snugly right at the fore #thegintercode
7 minutes ago

TheGinterCode Ginter Code
The Codemaster himself shows you the word that is key, but don't forget to turn them or useless they'll be #thegintercode
7 minutes ago

TheGinterCode Ginter Code
The time on each clock points to a card, though finding the connection may be quite hard #thegintercode
8 minutes ago

 

[Guest]

Do you turn all of the clocks 90 degrees and then use an area code to match it to a player's card, and it might form something on the puzzle map?