2011 LEAF LEGENDS OF SPORT TRADING CARDS

[George_Calfas]

I am interested........however I want to see a checklist prior to commitment.

 

[Musial Collector]

are all the cards on the sales sheet stickers?

They look like stickers, but they aren't even real autos...might just be the way the mock ups look?

WAIT.......Those are mock ups?!?!?!
You mean if I pull a Ripken or Ichiro, its not going to look 100% like that?!?!?!
Well, thats just BS, I will NEVER EVER buy this product, such false advertising!!!

Oh yeah, I forgot to put these ~ ~ around the above

I don't think he needed to say that the autos were mock-ups for people to realize that.

The point is that it almost certainly looks like a sticker from the mock-ups. If they were on-card, they'd have made them look on card.

So wait, now you are assuming that ALL people will just know that these are "mock ups" and not the real card?? The entire sports/card collecting world is not as well versed as 98% of the regular posters on FCB. I dont see how you can argue one point in the Topps thread, but not argue the same point in this thread. Brian is using mock ups for his product, Topps did it for their product, no difference from my perspective, a mock up is a mock up is a mock up.

I know we will just go round and round and round in our defending of our stances, so the above is in no way meant as hate or ridicule your way, just so we are clear.

 

[ChasHawk]

[quote="Musial Collector":30rm0ovu]

are all the cards on the sales sheet stickers?

They look like stickers, but they aren't even real autos...might just be the way the mock ups look?

WAIT.......Those are mock ups?!?!?!
You mean if I pull a Ripken or Ichiro, its not going to look 100% like that?!?!?!
Well, thats just BS, I will NEVER EVER buy this product, such false advertising!!!

Oh yeah, I forgot to put these ~ ~ around the above

I don't think he needed to say that the autos were mock-ups for people to realize that.

The point is that it almost certainly looks like a sticker from the mock-ups. If they were on-card, they'd have made them look on card.

So wait, now you are assuming that ALL people will just know that these are "mock ups" and not the real card?? The entire sports/card collecting world is not as well versed as 98% of the regular posters on FCB. I dont see how you can argue one point in the Topps thread, but not argue the same point in this thread. Brian is using mock ups for his product, Topps did it for their product, no difference from my perspective, a mock up is a mock up is a mock up.

I know we will just go round and round and round in our defending of our stances, so the above is in no way meant as hate or ridicule your way, just so we are clear.[/quote:30rm0ovu]
Problem there is that I didn't say people should realize they are mock-ups in the topps thread.

I said the graphic artist shouldn't have put THE premium Mariners patch in the mock-up if topps wasn't going to even come close to delivering on it.

As far as this thread goes, people who know enough about the hobby to even have access to that sell sheet are going to know those aren't the players real autos...

How widely known do you think Leaf's products are?

 

[AMAZIN HOF COLLECTOR]

are all the cards on the sales sheet stickers?

They look like stickers, but they aren't even real autos...might just be the way the mock ups look?

WAIT.......Those are mock ups?!?!?!
You mean if I pull a Ripken or Ichiro, its not going to look 100% like that?!?!?!
Well, thats just BS, I will NEVER EVER buy this product, such false advertising!!!



Oh yeah, I forgot to put these ~ ~ around the above

I see what you did there! :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Sean_C]

Guess Brian was reading when we were all spit-balling suggestions a few months back. Perhaps an olympic or ***** league themed release is next.

While I love multi-sport releases, I'll be sitting on my hands for this one.

 

[Leaf]

Guess Brian was reading when we were all spit-balling suggestions a few months back. Perhaps an olympic or ***** league themed release is next.

While I love multi-sport releases, I'll be sitting on my hands for this one.

BG

 

[Jared]

Brian can you confirm or object to the feeeling that all cards will be on stickers as opposed to on-card like your recent Metal, Valiant, Pete Rose, and Lombardi Collection products?

 

[Leaf]

I've bought most razor and leaf products and unlike most on here I have been very happy with the quality of everything I've bought. BG has always been a magnet for criticism sometimes fair, most times unfair. But this thread actually makes the fairest criticism of Leaf; Why does everything have to be high end? How can you build any brand recognition by releasing nothing but hit centered products with only a few cards per break?

I felt compelled to comment on this....

The market has plenty of standard boxes with 10-24 packs, base cards and hits....
The majority of these items (nearly 75% based on a recent study we did) end up droppingin value and trade well below factory cost after release (meaning either the manufacturer or its dealers get hurt!).

The market has complained non-stop for 5 years about opening $100 boxes and pulling $20 worth of cards....
When you do base cards, this adds a substantial cost to the product...
When you do foil packs, this adds a substantial cost to the product...
These costs are magnified when you do tiny print runs as we do....

For example, Metal cards cost me 10X-20X the price to make that they cost Topps..(a) I run tiny limited qtys and (b) our quality far exceeds our competitors using Metal.... Both of which I think adds real value...


Thus, we are faced with standard boxes with 1 auto box (ala Bowman Draft) where we make 2000-2500 cases.
This product would get slaughtered in the market as there is not enough demand/money for this many cases.
Now, while that box would be $44-48 factory cost..... Valiant Baseball gives you 8 autographs per box for $80 factory cost.... Plus, then we can do a 320 case print run of Valiant (much more easily consumed by the market)...

With these numbers, I do not see how anyone benefits from a 1 hit $48 cost box when we can do 6-8 hits for $80.

With that being said, we are still looking for ways to pack each card individually within a 6-8 card box, to allow pack sales.
The only downside is that collation would be weaker as duplicatioin within a box becomes a real possibility..

Thoughts? Are you willing to live with duplication possibilities for the possibility of buying packs?

BG

 

[matfanofold]

Brian, I think the hobby as a whole is fairly capable of consuming another pack driven product in the form/mold of a 1 or 2 hit per box product that features base cards. The only question that remains to be seen is can LEAF produce a baseball product that can deliver on all fronts (quality, originality, value, checklist, ect..) in that arena..? Dont get me wrong, I love the lottery style products like RR and such, and the 'all hit' stuff like Valiant, but to producr a comprehensive set like topps (or even bowman) takes a bit more effort to do.

I for one would welcome a traditional baseball offering from LEAF!

 

[Leaf]

Brian can you confirm or object to the feeeling that all cards will be on stickers as opposed to on-card like your recent Metal, Valiant, Pete Rose, and Lombardi Collection products?

They will indeed be stickers.

Unlike our competitors, our premium products do not have 3 gazillion versions of every card (i.e. Triple Threads). For this reason, our very low numbered cards are truly short (not artificially short).

When we work with players, they demand a single signing when we are doing the small quanitites we are. In addition, many times these player opportunities (i.e. a RARE guy like Piazza) come on mega-short notice with absolutely no time to print cards. In addition, it allows us to develop a checklist as we go and not be forced to exclude great opportunities when they pop up.

Overall, I can sum it up for you... Our tiny print runs are great, but come at a cost.
We have to use unbelievable flexibility to facilitate doing the size deals we need to to keep costs down and make items truly limited.

I am not a fan of stickers. You guys know this.
I do on-card whenever possible.
Hopefully, you know by now that I do not use stickers out of laziness (as I know some companies do).

I only use stickers when necessary.

Leaf is striving to go on-card with as many sets as possible (and to a large extent we are succeeding).
I would guess that sets like Pop Century and Legends of Sport are going to be stickers until that time we are ready to sacrifice value/quality of names to do so.

BG

 

[George_Calfas]

Checklist? I hope this might be ready for pre-sells?

 

[Leaf]

Brian, I think the hobby as a whole is fairly capable of consuming another pack driven product in the form/mold of a 1 or 2 hit per box product that features base cards. The only question that remains to be seen is can LEAF produce a baseball product that can deliver on all fronts (quality, originality, value, checklist, ect..)..? Dont get me wrong, I love the lottery style products like RR and such, and the 'all hit' stuff like Valiant, but to producr a comprehensive set like topps (or even bowman) takes a bit more effort to do.

I for one would welcome a traditional baseball offering from LEAF!

I can do it and have the ability and willingness to look at it (and we are looking at this for our SECOND Golf set).
However, I know for a fact the market cannot and will not consume safely 2000 cases of a Leaf Baseball Draft product.
To make the product like that would be completely irresponsible to our dealers/distributors.

I personally do NOT think an unlicensed company can deliver value on all fronts with that limitation.
HOWEVER, I think we give ourselves the best chance to compete by creating products that are designed to DIFFER from the standard Topps products.

I feel pretty strongly that the 12-15 standard items Topps makes are more than enough in that style (actually, too many in my opinion.. I mean really, who needs Updates/Highlights for real!).....

Hopefully, we can find a way to create a more affordable entry level while still maintaining our product's identity and the strong value that accompanies that.

BG

 

[Leaf]

Checklist? I hope this might be ready for pre-sells?

We should have a full checklist by friday... BG

 

[ChasHawk]

Brian can you confirm or object to the feeeling that all cards will be on stickers as opposed to on-card like your recent Metal, Valiant, Pete Rose, and Lombardi Collection products?

They will indeed be stickers.

Unlike our competitors, our premium products do not have 3 gazillion versions of every card (i.e. Triple Threads). For this reason, our very low numbered cards are truly short (not artificially short).

When we work with players, they demand a single signing when we are doing the small quanitites we are. In addition, many times these player opportunities (i.e. a RARE guy like Piazza) come on mega-short notice with absolutely no time to print cards. In addition, it allows us to develop a checklist as we go and not be forced to exclude great opportunities when they pop up.

Overall, I can sum it up for you... Our tiny print runs are great, but come at a cost.
We have to use unbelievable flexibility to facilitate doing the size deals we need to to keep costs down and make items truly limited.

I am not a fan of stickers. You guys know this.
I do on-card whenever possible.
Hopefully, you know by now that I do not use stickers out of laziness (as I kow some companies do).

I only use stickers when necessary.

Leaf is striving to go on-card with as many sets as possible (and to a large extent we are exceeding).
I would guess that sets like Pop Century and Legends of Sport are going to be stickers until that time we are ready to sacrifice value/quality of names to do so.

BG

Don't you feel then that the box cost may be out of line for 3 sticker autos regardless of what the numbering on each card might be?

 

[Leaf]

Brian can you confirm or object to the feeeling that all cards will be on stickers as opposed to on-card like your recent Metal, Valiant, Pete Rose, and Lombardi Collection products?

They will indeed be stickers.

Unlike our competitors, our premium products do not have 3 gazillion versions of every card (i.e. Triple Threads). For this reason, our very low numbered cards are truly short (not artificially short).

When we work with players, they demand a single signing when we are doing the small quanitites we are. In addition, many times these player opportunities (i.e. a RARE guy like Piazza) come on mega-short notice with absolutely no time to print cards. In addition, it allows us to develop a checklist as we go and not be forced to exclude great opportunities when they pop up.

Overall, I can sum it up for you... Our tiny print runs are great, but come at a cost.
We have to use unbelievable flexibility to facilitate doing the size deals we need to to keep costs down and make items truly limited.

I am not a fan of stickers. You guys know this.
I do on-card whenever possible.
Hopefully, you know by now that I do not use stickers out of laziness (as I kow some companies do).

I only use stickers when necessary.

Leaf is striving to go on-card with as many sets as possible (and to a large extent we are exceeding).
I would guess that sets like Pop Century and Legends of Sport are going to be stickers until that time we are ready to sacrifice value/quality of names to do so.

BG

Don't you feel then that the box cost may be out of line for 3 sticker autos regardless of what the numbering on each card might be?

Honestly, I dont.....
I cannot think of a single product that delivers three Hall of Fame or superstar autographs per box at this sort of level (especially when cards are 120pt thick with lots of foil coverage).....

I know what it costs to get these guys to sign. I definitely paid cheaper than my competitors do (on majority of names).
Therefore, I am confident the value (and more important the enjoyment) will be very solid....

If another company did an on-card version of this, it would be $250 a box to maintain their margins based on what they pay... and thats IF you could even build this checklist on-card (noting the rare opportunities like Piazza that I pointed out).....

BG

 

[ChasHawk]

So is the checklist going be all HOFers and should-be HOFers then?

$53 a card just seems like a lot for some of the names listed. Idk, maybe I'm wrong, the market will decide.

 

[George_Calfas]

So is the checklist going be all HOFers and should-be HOFers then?

$53 a card just seems like a lot for some of the names listed. Idk, maybe I'm wrong, the market will decide.

This is why the checklist is needed, without it you assume a lot.

 

[Leaf]

So is the checklist going be all HOFers and should-be HOFers then?

$53 a card just seems like a lot for some of the names listed. Idk, maybe I'm wrong, the market will decide.

As a note, the cost to print each card is nearly $5 per card (damn small print runs!!!)

Thats before we even put a signature on them!
Add photography, boxes, image rights, autographs, labor, etc and you quickly find it is not nearly as profitable as one might think.

The checklist is very strong overall.. I feel very comfortable with what weve offered as opposed to watering it down with no-name prospects to get the price down.... BG

p.s.- you should remember that Topps and other companies are USUALLY paying MORE for autographs that what the sell for on ebay when someone runs .99 and let it rip......

 

[morgoth]

Brian, I think the hobby as a whole is fairly capable of consuming another pack driven product in the form/mold of a 1 or 2 hit per box product that features base cards. The only question that remains to be seen is can LEAF produce a baseball product that can deliver on all fronts (quality, originality, value, checklist, ect..)..? Dont get me wrong, I love the lottery style products like RR and such, and the 'all hit' stuff like Valiant, but to producr a comprehensive set like topps (or even bowman) takes a bit more effort to do.

I for one would welcome a traditional baseball offering from LEAF!

I can do it and have the ability and willingness to look at it (and we are looking at this for our SECOND Golf set).
However, I know for a fact the market cannot and will not consume safely 2000 cases of a Leaf Baseball Draft product.
To make the product like that would be completely irresponsible to our dealers/distributors.

I personally do NOT think an unlicensed company can deliver value on all fronts with that limitation.
HOWEVER, I think we give ourselves the best chance to compete by creating products that are designed to DIFFER from the standard Topps products.

I feel pretty strongly that the 12-15 standard items Topps makes are more than enough in that style (actually, too many in my opinion.. I mean really, who needs Updates/Highlights for real!).....

Hopefully, we can find a way to create a more affordable entry level while still maintaining our product's identity and the strong value that accompanies that.

BG

Brian, I think the market would bear a set that had very high end base cards like the Valient set you did mixed in with good patch cards and a limited amount of high end autos. It would be a Totally Certified type of product with 2 to 3 hits a box.

 

[Leaf]

Brian, I think the hobby as a whole is fairly capable of consuming another pack driven product in the form/mold of a 1 or 2 hit per box product that features base cards. The only question that remains to be seen is can LEAF produce a baseball product that can deliver on all fronts (quality, originality, value, checklist, ect..)..? Dont get me wrong, I love the lottery style products like RR and such, and the 'all hit' stuff like Valiant, but to producr a comprehensive set like topps (or even bowman) takes a bit more effort to do.

I for one would welcome a traditional baseball offering from LEAF!

I can do it and have the ability and willingness to look at it (and we are looking at this for our SECOND Golf set).
However, I know for a fact the market cannot and will not consume safely 2000 cases of a Leaf Baseball Draft product.
To make the product like that would be completely irresponsible to our dealers/distributors.

I personally do NOT think an unlicensed company can deliver value on all fronts with that limitation.
HOWEVER, I think we give ourselves the best chance to compete by creating products that are designed to DIFFER from the standard Topps products.

I feel pretty strongly that the 12-15 standard items Topps makes are more than enough in that style (actually, too many in my opinion.. I mean really, who needs Updates/Highlights for real!).....

Hopefully, we can find a way to create a more affordable entry level while still maintaining our product's identity and the strong value that accompanies that.

BG

Brian, I think the market would bear a set that had very high end base cards like the Valient set you did mixed in with good patch cards and a limited amount of high end autos. It would be a Totally Certified type of product with 2 to 3 hits a box.

I am listening.... our Metal golf set WILL include VERY limited base cards..
Our second set might be a traditional pack item... BG