A little info on Game Used cards...

[jlvjr16]

that's why you gotta get stuff MEANING AUTOS AND GAME USED STUFF ON YOUR OWNNN......I hustle for my Derek Jeter, Alex Rodriguez and Mariano Rivera autographs in person...

 

[predatorkj]

In regards to what you said CLMartinez ...I am not going to say crap doesn't happen. But I do believe if somebody went out and somehow prooved that something was not really GU ,or even said player's jersey for that matter, it would screw all of these companies big time. And I mean big time. The market for all of these cards would go dead. Even old stuff. People might buy them. But they'd pay pennies on the dollar and it would just be to fill out their collections. The whole reason behind even wanting to own the cards would be gone. Like buying shortprints when you find out they made more of the shortprints than they did the regular base set. And the whole gu niche would be dead. I mean...making any more would probably be fruitless.

So, with that in mind, after all the employees who have been pissed off at any of these companies for whatever reason, I am surprised that if this does happen, we haven't heard anything about this. Sure employees who are disgruntled or get laid off or fired don't always speak badly of their former company or present company they work(ed) for. But, some do. There is always a cog in the wheel. And something like this could destroy a company.

 

[TBTwinsFan]

In regards to what you said CLMartinez ...I am not going to say crap doesn't happen. But I do believe if somebody went out and somehow prooved that something was not really GU ,or even said player's jersey for that matter, it would screw all of these companies big time. And I mean big time. The market for all of these cards would go dead. Even old stuff. People might buy them. But they'd pay pennies on the dollar and it would just be to fill out their collections. The whole reason behind even wanting to own the cards would be gone. Like buying shortprints when you find out they made more of the shortprints than they did the regular base set. And the whole gu niche would be dead. I mean...making any more would probably be fruitless.

So, with that in mind, after all the employees who have been pissed off at any of these companies for whatever reason, I am surprised that if this does happen, we haven't heard anything about this. Sure employees who are disgruntled or get laid off or fired don't always speak badly of their former company or present company they work(ed) for. But, some do. There is always a cog in the wheel. And something like this could destroy a company.

This was done (on the old BMB maybe?).

Someone had a Donruss Torii Hunter jersey card and cut it open, to find a Manny Ramirez jersey on the inside (Donruss has the names on the back of each swatch)

I read about it on Topps one day (the second go-around of that site. All the threads are deleted now so I can't look it up. I may be able to find the pic).

I can't find it. If someone knows what I am talking about, maybe they can find the pic.

 

[CLMartinez]

In regards to what you said CLMartinez ...I am not going to say crap doesn't happen. But I do believe if somebody went out and somehow prooved that something was not really GU ,or even said player's jersey for that matter, it would screw all of these companies big time. And I mean big time. The market for all of these cards would go dead. Even old stuff. People might buy them. But they'd pay pennies on the dollar and it would just be to fill out their collections. The whole reason behind even wanting to own the cards would be gone. Like buying shortprints when you find out they made more of the shortprints than they did the regular base set. And the whole gu niche would be dead. I mean...making any more would probably be fruitless.

So, with that in mind, after all the employees who have been pissed off at any of these companies for whatever reason, I am surprised that if this does happen, we haven't heard anything about this. Sure employees who are disgruntled or get laid off or fired don't always speak badly of their former company or present company they work(ed) for. But, some do. There is always a cog in the wheel. And something like this could destroy a company.

You have to keep in mind that lawyers for the card companies are no dummies. The employee are an easy fix with just one signature before you start working. The government covered up the existence of area 51 for years. Not the same, I know, but you don't think companies didn't learn from that? That place had hundreds if not thousands of employees. Most, as we're finding out now (over 50 years later) were not happy working there but yet, they can't talk or say anything about what they did there. I forgot the name of the form they signed (something about secrecy blah, blah, blah). If you put on there that they can be financially held for their action or what they say in public and they sign it, pretty good chance they will keep it to themselves.

for the same reason collectors pull cards from the packs that are supposed to be serial numbered but are not and some actually are, you don't think card companies are doing this in purpose to make us think we have a short print of some sort? A couple of years from now or sooner or later, we collectors will come up with a sorry excuse like "some disgruntled employee" stole and back doored those cards before the card company had a chance to serial number them. Why? because we didn't pull the cards ourselves and we put a lot of trust to these companies that we just won't (or we refuse to) believe they will do this to us. After all, they will not thrive without us, the customers, right? Yeah, sure they won't.

From what you said about "screwing the companies big time if they get caught" they will not get caught simply because we are making it harder for them to get caught by making excuse for them. We blame other collectors, eBay sellers and everybody else for this kind of stuff. Again, simply because we trust these companies sooooooo much are we're all sure they will neer do such a thing. The only ones we blame them for is the ones that are so obvious but we make up a reason for that too. EVERYBODY MAKES A MISTAKE. Even if you catch a card company with their mistake, chances are they will blame some "sub contractor" for hiring the incompetent person that did that mistake. There is no way to prove this, but I'm pretty sure with the kind of money involved, the card companies lawyers will not allow (let's say Topps) place these little jerseys' in the same facility where they print the cards. I will even say that the people placing these little jerseys' don't even work for Topps but work for Momma and Papa shop with a sub contract from a company with a contract with Topps. When you prove that the card you paid three months salary for, thinking it had a little piece of the $250,000 jersey actually had Cal Ripken's jersey on it, who do you think you can go after? Even a newbie in sports cards collecting is told "THE CARD IS ONLY WORTH AS MUCH AS SOMEONE IS WILLING TO PAY" ????? Really? Oh by the way, YOU CAN BUY OR SUBSCRIBE A PRICE GUIDE. What? How does that make sense?
Anyway, let's say you went after Topps. What's stopping them from sending you a little type written letter with company logo and all, looking fancy. Look here Mr. Collector, we sent the little jerseys to a company we contracted to do this job. Although we strive for excellence, we make mistakes too. Please contact contracted company so and so if you have any more questions regarding your card. So you contact the contracted company and you get this reply. We sent all the little jersey to a company we contracted to do this job for us. However, after doing our research, we found that that company no longer exist. Now what? Do you go back to Topps and cry fraud? Nobody from Topps (in their right mind) will say, okay, you got us. You caught us red handed so we'll give you your money back plus some for your troubles. Trust me when I tell you, THEY WILL PAY THEIR LAWYERS MUCH, MUCH MORE before they give you more than a refund for the price of a pack of whatever the card you have came from. They will pay their lawyers ten times more for what your claiming. Why? Because paying you can be viewed my others as admission of guilt and if they paid you, the next guy who paid as much as you did will do the same. In the rare instance that Topps lawyers missed up big time and you ended up getting paid, guess what? YOU CAN NOT SAY ANYTHING to anyone because now we're back to that darn piece of paper about some secrecy blah, blah.

Sorry for the long read but to cut it short, keep this in mind.

ANYTHING man made can be manipulated. Even laws the politicians make in writing. Just amend the darn thing and move on. Get up, lick your wounds and go on with your life.... Peace!

 

[rsmath]

I just wish there was more information regarding why there's only Topps now.

I would imagine it partially has to do with UD being behind in licensing payments to MLBP and another might be that MLBP was able to extract more money from Topps as an exclusive licensed company than what MLBP could have gotten if they allowed Donruss/Panini or some other company have a license in addition to Topps.

 

[predatorkj]

CLMartinez, yes I am aware of certain companies making you sign a form that after you leave, and even while you are there, you are not allowed to discuss company information with anyone else(including publicly). But I am also of the belief that if something like this were to get out, that piece of paper would be the last thing that company would be worried about. Besides, what...you gonna sue a normal 9-5 joe for several million in damages? Good luck buddy. Plus, if it ever did get to court, I have a hard time believing that the judge would dismiss the case or anything because the basis of the situation is...the companies are defrauding millions of collectors out of money they spend on these products for these very cards. Just because your company makes everyone sign little pieces of paper saying they won't spill the beans to anyone else(oil companies are really good about this), it doesn't give your company the right to defraud people and use this agreement to cover it up.

Now I'll admit, I don't know the first thing about the legality of it. So the above is my opinion and that is all it can be. I'd like to think if a case like this was to come out, no matter the type of business involved, that it would not be thrown out simply because the guy squealing was made to sign a gag order. It's illegal and nobody should have the power to run an illegal or fraudulent operation and then be able to legally keep everyone involved quiet. If that was the case, hell, why not open up a murder for hire business? Or a brothel? Who can stop you if you have everyone sign something swearing them to secrecy?


And before it's even brought up, yes, collectors do spend a lot of money every year buying these products for the hits. They will spend money and I mean big money, because they are going after these. Now while topps, donruss, and UD don't guarantee they will pull anything specific, they are supposed to guarantee that they aren't lying or selling fake stuff. They say it's been presented to them as real, as a company. So if it was proven that they knowingly purchased or used fake autos or memorabilia in their products, or that they intentionally used items for one purpose when they were not really for that purpose(jersey switching for different players) what the hell is the difference between them and the Marino family? One thing and one thing only...they were issued in packs.

 

[jrinne]

Ive always felt that "game used" jersey cards are just a nostalgic part of the hobby. Ive never bought these cards with the intent to believe they are actually worn in a game but maybe an event. The only company that I truly believe can stand by the "game used" title is In The Game Products. I know everyone feels different about which company actually does what but from my experience they are the only ones I believe who offer a true piece that was used in a game.

 

[CLMartinez]

CLMartinez, yes I am aware of certain companies making you sign a form that after you leave, and even while you are there, you are not allowed to discuss company information with anyone else(including publicly). But I am also of the belief that if something like this were to get out, that piece of paper would be the last thing that company would be worried about. Besides, what...you gonna sue a normal 9-5 joe for several million in damages? Good luck buddy. Plus, if it ever did get to court, I have a hard time believing that the judge would dismiss the case or anything because the basis of the situation is...the companies are defrauding millions of collectors out of money they spend on these products for these very cards. Just because your company makes everyone sign little pieces of paper saying they won't spill the beans to anyone else(oil companies are really good about this), it doesn't give your company the right to defraud people and use this agreement to cover it up.

*** That piece of paper is everything simply because what good is your word when you can't keep your word? You signed a paper stating this and that and here you are in court telling me this and that. Which am I suppose to believe now? With this kind of money involved, the card companies are not worried about how much money they can get from normal 9-5 joe. They are will sue him until they come to an agreement to clear the company's name. You think that judge gives a hoot about what companies do? Really? Mr. judge can only listen to testimonies, agree or disagree to what lawyers from each side are yapping about and slap you with contempt of court and jail time if you get stubborn in there. You are about these companies doesn't have the right to defraud people but we both know they do. It's just that darn difficult to prove.

Now I'll admit, I don't know the first thing about the legality of it. So the above is my opinion and that is all it can be. I'd like to think if a case like this was to come out, no matter the type of business involved, that it would not be thrown out simply because the guy squealing was made to sign a gag order. It's illegal and nobody should have the power to run an illegal or fraudulent operation and then be able to legally keep everyone involved quiet. If that was the case, hell, why not open up a murder for hire business? Or a brothel? Who can stop you if you have everyone sign something swearing them to secrecy?


And before it's even brought up, yes, collectors do spend a lot of money every year buying these products for the hits. They will spend money and I mean big money, because they are going after these. Now while topps, donruss, and UD don't guarantee they will pull anything specific, they are supposed to guarantee that they aren't lying or selling fake stuff. They say it's been presented to them as real, as a company. So if it was proven that they knowingly purchased or used fake autos or memorabilia in their products, or that they intentionally used items for one purpose when they were not really for that purpose(jersey switching for different players) what the hell is the difference between them and the Marino family? One thing and one thing only...they were issued in packs.

That alone is enough to get them out of trouble. We bought the real jersey, here's the receipt to prove it. We sent it to get cut up with this security company, and here's the receipt for that. We had the company cutting the jersey place them in a ziplock and with the same security company delivered to this address whom we have a contract with to stuff the little jerseys' to the cards and here's the receipts for that. After a couple of weeks, we received the cards with little jerseys in them and we simply put them and packs and sold them. As far as our company is concerned, we sold the real thing. How you come in my office and accuse of fraud is beyond me but I will see in you court. Now What? There's a lot of maybe's from the get go. From the second they touched that jersey to the time they sold the cards involves at least 20 people. With that kind of money, hopefully no one was alone in handling it. Sometimes even with two or three people don't make a difference. No matter how much money you have in your account, $250K divided by three, four or five is still a lot of money.

Predator - we can discuss this forever but let me just say that really hope that the card companies are doing what they're legally suppose to do. For me, everyone has a price and we both know the people involved in handling memorabilia of this value is very, very lucky to make 1/3 that amount in a year. Hopefully you're not taking this discussion personal, just something to think about. I am actually hoping that I am wrong for our sake.

 

[predatorkj]

I'm not taking anything personally. I just think it's one of those deals where their wording on their cards won't save their ass. If a collector does find out they aren't real, somebody will be responsible. It's one company's product. They are liable IMO. Now if they go off and sue their card printers or manufacturing people, that is their business. But the collector wouldn't be suing them. Just the company selling the cards.

 

[ASTROBURN]

I just wish there was more information regarding why there's only Topps now.

I would imagine it partially has to do with UD being behind in licensing payments to MLBP and another might be that MLBP was able to extract more money from Topps as an exclusive licensed company than what MLBP could have gotten if they allowed Donruss/Panini or some other company have a license in addition to Topps.

But in my reading they killed the Topps monopoly back in the 70's and the Players Association made a buttload more money allowing others to make baseball cards. Seems wierd to revert to the old ways...

 

[LWMM]

As for a company selling fake autos, about the only instance I know of is that cut card featuring Cobb and Ruth and two other players. It was a big to do a few years back. Many people do not believe it was authentic. You know what I think? I think that these companies have to buy cuts the same way we do. They aren't special or immune to anything. I will say that I think they will buy where and when they can and do try to save money in the process. Now they are not going to spend a zillion bucks to get everything re-authenticated. It would be astronomical. So I do believe they are basing it to be real off of whatever the Auction Houses' authenticators say. And just like me or you...that is all they can do when it comes to the Auction House transaction they are involved in. And they should be able to hold those Auction Houses liable in the event of forgery. The only difference is while you and me care and would try to do our homework and may even take it to another authenticator, they take the authentication and run with it.

I've been told different but I do not believe it. And honestly, in the event that a cut or memorabilia was proven to be fake, the consumer could sue the company but then the company could sue the place they purchased their items from. Not to mention, their language on the backs of the cards does not guarantee you anything anymore. It's a nice little loophole. About the only thing you see anymore is it's been presented as real to the company. I used to see a lot of "guaranteed authenticity" but not anymore.

Game used items, even before they become generic in their rendered state, often share the same nebulous authenticity that autographs have. Do you think that this Maris bat was used by him? Clearly most of the bidders do not as it ended for only $350, yet it is consistent with what Maris himself would have used. What about this Mel Ott bat? He has one order for this model, which was possibly canceled. If not from that order the bat would have been ordered by the Giants for anyone to use, but did Ott in particular use it? Plenty of jerseys, too, are of indeterminate authenticity, even those purchased directly from players' representatives (think of Favre and Manny Ramirez). With vintage jerseys paperwork can often no longer be verified, fewer media resources (e.g., photographs and video) are available and less is known about styles.

As soon as a card manufacturer cuts up an item, it becomes much harder to determine authenticity. It is impossible to analyze the item first hand, and there may not be enough detailed images to do so otherwise. Even with those images, some things will be impossible to determine (the weight of the cloth, for instance, which can differentiate major and minor league jerseys). No doubt some Halper jerseys were cut up, and now all that remains to judge most of them by are small pictures in auction catalogs. Most importantly, there is no longer anyone with a significant vested interest in the item's authenticity. Does someone with a $100 Babe Ruth card really want to spend the thousands worth of time and money that it would take to retroactively determine if the jersey used was actually a gamer? Someone looking to purchase a full jersey that cost half a million certainly would, but once the jersey is cut up and distributed, all you have are thousands of small time investors. You could even argue that those people are more interested in not contesting the jersey's authenticity, because if it is successfully contested, thousands of cards will become worthless. The cloak of ambiguity offered by card companies here helps the investor. (You could also argue that many owners of full jerseys would prefer not to contest authenticity, just that it is much harder to keep others from contesting it when it is offered for sale.)

If you were representing an auction company purchasing a Roger Maris bat, soon to become indistinguishable from what comes out of a wood chipper, let alone the wood he once wielded in a game, which one would you purchase: the one that costs $350, or the one that costs $23,000?

 

[predatorkj]

Okay...first off, I don't know jack about GU Maris items. But I'd have to go out on a limb and think one used during the '61 season would go for way more than one used with no specific timeframe given. Hell...it could be a batting practice bat that was used once in a game. Who knows.


But that is what I said earlier. In fact, other than the collector's aspect, nothing else you really said went against my point. I mean...I know they don't go out of their way to re-authenticate their items. They don't have the vested interest to do so. But I also do not think Topps, Donruss, Leaf, Fleer, Panini, Upper Deck, or any other company has gone out their way to knowinlgy produce a fake. Do I think some of the items they pick up on the auction circuit or through MLB or NBA or NFL or NHL are not always necessarily game used? Sometimes. But that is the same problem anyone would face when buying from any of these sources. It's not the same, nor will it ever be, as taking a Chris Carpenter jersey patch and inserting it into an Albert Pujols card on purpose. That...I think they would tend to stay away from. That way, at the end of the day, while they can't vouch 100% for who they purchased from, they can at least say they did it right on their end. As for them not re-authenticating the items...honestly, while it sucks for us collectors, they are at no more of an obligation to do that than I would be if I purchased a game used item from MLB and sold it as such on ebay. Now, if it turns out fake, the buyer goes after me, and then I go after MLB.

As for collectors not wanting to go through the trouble of authenticating a square inch piece of jersey retroactively...I'll agree. But we would have a vested interest in doing so. It's just not financially feasible for every random card. In this hobby, be it cards or memorabilia, while it has historically been the intention of quite a few to hide dark secrets, there are people who aren't about that and do everything they can to keep people honest. So I'd say anyone doing something of that nature had better watch their ass.

 

[LWMM]

Okay...first off, I don't know jack about GU Maris items. But I'd have to go out on a limb and think one used during the '61 season would go for way more than one used with no specific timeframe given. Hell...it could be a batting practice bat that was used once in a game. Who knows.


But that is what I said earlier. In fact, other than the collector's aspect, nothing else you really said went against my point. I mean...I know they don't go out of their way to re-authenticate their items. They don't have the vested interest to do so. But I also do not think Topps, Donruss, Leaf, Fleer, Panini, Upper Deck, or any other company has gone out their way to knowinlgy produce a fake. Do I think some of the items they pick up on the auction circuit or through MLB or NBA or NFL or NHL are not always necessarily game used? Sometimes. But that is the same problem anyone would face when buying from any of these sources. It's not the same, nor will it ever be, as taking a Chris Carpenter jersey patch and inserting it into an Albert Pujols card on purpose. That...I think they would tend to stay away from. That way, at the end of the day, while they can't vouch 100% for who they purchased from, they can at least say they did it right on their end. As for them not re-authenticating the items...honestly, while it sucks for us collectors, they are at no more of an obligation to do that than I would be if I purchased a game used item from MLB and sold it as such on ebay. Now, if it turns out fake, the buyer goes after me, and then I go after MLB.

As for collectors not wanting to go through the trouble of authenticating a square inch piece of jersey retroactively...I'll agree. But we would have a vested interest in doing so. It's just not financially feasible for every random card. In this hobby, be it cards or memorabilia, while it has historically been the intention of quite a few to hide dark secrets, there are people who aren't about that and do everything they can to keep people honest. So I'd say anyone doing something of that nature had better watch their ass.

The comparison between bats is not one between two bats used by Maris, one during the '61 season and one at a less noteworthy time. The latter bat was possibly never used by Maris at all; but who really knows? The Ott bat that I referenced is even more ambiguous. The point that I was trying to make is not that there is an inherent ambiguity with all game used items (although with few exceptions there is), but that given the use card companies put them to, it rarely makes sense for a card company to lessen that ambiguity by purchasing premier pieces. Collectors of game used items have the relative luxury of being able to analyze each piece, which is what happened with the Maris bats. The one that sold for $23,000 was almost certainly used by him, hence the final price (being used in 1961 helps too, but even if it instead was from 1960 and sold for $10,000, that's still 30 times more than the other bat). The bat offered by MEARS, which has a great deal of uncertainty, sold for only $350. If a card company purchases the latter bat and cuts it up, it becomes a generic Maris game used bat; no longer can a collector look at it and say "that's only worth $350".

The difference between our two positions is that while you are effectively saying that card companies, as consumers in the same game used market that collectors participate in, are subject to the same ambiguities as collectors, I am saying that card companies have an ability to manipulate those ambiguities in a way that collectors cannot.

 

[predatorkj]

Okay...first off, I don't know jack about GU Maris items. But I'd have to go out on a limb and think one used during the '61 season would go for way more than one used with no specific timeframe given. Hell...it could be a batting practice bat that was used once in a game. Who knows.


But that is what I said earlier. In fact, other than the collector's aspect, nothing else you really said went against my point. I mean...I know they don't go out of their way to re-authenticate their items. They don't have the vested interest to do so. But I also do not think Topps, Donruss, Leaf, Fleer, Panini, Upper Deck, or any other company has gone out their way to knowinlgy produce a fake. Do I think some of the items they pick up on the auction circuit or through MLB or NBA or NFL or NHL are not always necessarily game used? Sometimes. But that is the same problem anyone would face when buying from any of these sources. It's not the same, nor will it ever be, as taking a Chris Carpenter jersey patch and inserting it into an Albert Pujols card on purpose. That...I think they would tend to stay away from. That way, at the end of the day, while they can't vouch 100% for who they purchased from, they can at least say they did it right on their end. As for them not re-authenticating the items...honestly, while it sucks for us collectors, they are at no more of an obligation to do that than I would be if I purchased a game used item from MLB and sold it as such on ebay. Now, if it turns out fake, the buyer goes after me, and then I go after MLB.

As for collectors not wanting to go through the trouble of authenticating a square inch piece of jersey retroactively...I'll agree. But we would have a vested interest in doing so. It's just not financially feasible for every random card. In this hobby, be it cards or memorabilia, while it has historically been the intention of quite a few to hide dark secrets, there are people who aren't about that and do everything they can to keep people honest. So I'd say anyone doing something of that nature had better watch their ass.

The comparison between bats is not one between two bats used by Maris, one during the '61 season and one at a less noteworthy time. The latter bat was possibly never used by Maris at all; but who really knows? The Ott bat that I referenced is even more ambiguous. The point that I was trying to make is not that there is an inherent ambiguity with all game used items (although with few exceptions there is), but that given the use card companies put them to, it rarely makes sense for a card company to lessen that ambiguity by purchasing premier pieces. Collectors of game used items have the relative luxury of being able to analyze each piece, which is what happened with the Maris bats. The one that sold for $23,000 was almost certainly used by him, hence the final price (being used in 1961 helps too, but even if it instead was from 1960 and sold for $10,000, that's still 30 times more than the other bat). The bat offered by MEARS, which has a great deal of uncertainty, sold for only $350. If a card company purchases the latter bat and cuts it up, it becomes a generic Maris game used bat; no longer can a collector look at it and say "that's only worth $350".

The difference between our two positions is that while you are effectively saying that card companies, as consumers in the same game used market that collectors participate in, are subject to the same ambiguities as collectors, I am saying that card companies have an ability to manipulate those ambiguities in a way that collectors cannot.

I suppose I can agree with that.