Actually Change Things?

[mchenrycards]

If we want change in this industry it initially has to come from us the buyer not the manufacturer.
As long as we buy these products just to turn around and flip nothing will ever change. We have to use our wallets and stop buying these overpriced scratch off tickets and just buy what we want/ like for our collection. That's what got most of us into this business buying cards because it was fun & entertaining.

Ding ding ding ding ding.....we have a winner!!!!!

If nobody buys it there is no reason to make it!!

 

[BBCgalaxee]

I'm "eagerly"waiting to see what wbc tribute will be replaced with.

Probably will be some new installment of bowman heritage since it combines two (cheap) things topps loves, retro and prospects.

Oh wait my bad, I mean " inception-ally bowman heritage" because we all know the hobby needs more $100 packs.

 

[Austin]

I've always wondered why Topps doesn't do these ideas:

2. Make factory sets available as HTA and online only.

Why would Topps do that?
Factory sets sold at Walmart, Target and other stores are a massive money maker for Topps. Especially during the holiday season.
And it's many kids' introduction to baseball cards.

 

[mchenrycards]

To get back to the original question.......

Let the card companies make their expensive packs but make it a tiered system. Have a price point of 2.95 per pack with the ability for some hits and a decent card design with "shineys" the kids will like. Dont go cheap on this tier and include a attractive design because the kids are the one's you are trying to pull into the hobby Have a higher price point of 5.99 or even 9.99 where older kids and adults on a budget can participate in the hobby without blowing their life savings. Add some nicer inserts, autographs or game used and the chance to pull a decent, large hit. Have another price point at 20+ dollars and yet an even higher price point with the super premium cards. Using this type of method you can cover the full spectrum of card collectors, make a decent profit to make the sharholders happy and offer products that are attractive, collectable and not a potential drag on the hobby.

This might be a total pie in the sky idea on my part but I think some sort of tiered structure like this can begin to make most, if not all colelctors as well as card makers happy.

 

[mchenrycards]

Why would Topps do that?
Factory sets sold at Walmart, Target and other stores are a massive money maker for Topps. Especially during the holiday season.
And it's many kids' introduction to baseball cards.

I agree with this as I saw a number of sets at my local Wal MArt a few days ago and actually smiled a little bit. Many guys who collected as kids will buy these sets for their very young kids as a gateway to the hobby. They put a set away each year since their kids are born and at 50 bucks each are not a cheap proposition. I suspect Topps sells a huge number of these sets through retail outlets. Why make it even more difficult for casual collectors to enter the card market by making them search for the Topps web site to buy a set for their kids. Get them out there so the casual collector can have them in their hands right away making a complete set a very good impule item at Christmas.

 

[maxe0213]

If we want change in this industry it initially has to come from us the buyer not the manufacturer.
As long as we buy these products just to turn around and flip nothing will ever change. We have to use our wallets and stop buying these overpriced scratch off tickets and just buy what we want/ like for our collection. That's what got most of us into this business buying cards because it was fun & entertaining.
I know it's a vicious circle because it would require the lcs to cut back on preordering from the distributors. Some store owners are fearful that they'll miss out on ordring the "product of the year" but in most cases reducing your preordering will be more benificial in the long run. Ordering retro products do you need to order both Qypsy Queen & Allen & Ginter ?
Most owners know their customers well enough (if not just simply ask em) that they could cut back preordering the garbage products and eventually they'll stop making them.
I know this will annoy alot of people here but the prospect products are the biggest problem. They're nothing but boxes of high priced lottery tickets. You buy them hoping to hit it big....but in most cases that doesn't happen and they then turn and complain about the value not put into the product. A lot of the time I see customers leave the base cards on the table after breaking a box or two (not worth keeping ?) Do we really need all 3 Bowman, BC & Draft Products?
Sorry for the long rambling read but bottom line is if we the consumer stop buying every product that comes out and just pick out the one or two that we enjoy & have fun opening and ignore trying to win a big ticket card eventually some change will happen - if the card companies don't cut back on their production of the garbage sets at least you are making a change and saving some money to buy what you want & enjoy.

A+ answer. Thank you for saying what many people have been trying to say this entire thread. Don't like it don't buy it. Thats the only way this will change the hobby

 

[maxe0213]

I'm "eagerly"waiting to see what wbc tribute will be replaced with.

Probably will be some new installment of bowman heritage since it combines two (cheap) things topps loves, retro and prospects.

Oh wait my bad, I mean " inception-ally bowman heritage" because we all know the hobby needs more $100 packs.

Inception was a huge money maker this year. not sure where your hate is coming from about it. Nicest prospect cards available. If anything Platinum and Sterling are the two garbage prospect products.

 

[BBCgalaxee]

Inception is a nice looking product for sure but that price tag it's hideous.

Three autos for $100 vs 6 sterling autos for $100? And sterling isn't completely loaded with second third fourth year prospect autos.

Sent from my HTCONE using Freedom Card Board mobile app

 

[bobthewondercat77]

Revenue would of course drop, and staff would have to be let go, but ths could even out and the end result would be a simplified and purer product and business.

Or I'm just crazy.

You're not crazy, but you're not thinking at all like a business.

Can you imagine getting a job at Topps and then trying to sell them on a plan where they will make LESS money and need to fire employees?

If you all want to change the hobby from the inside like this thread is about, then you need to think about propositions that make Topps (or whomever) MORE profit, AND change the hobby in a direction you like. Topps is by all accounts a decently successful company that is making plenty of money -- they're not in a crisis like some are projecting, so they are not going to be interested in plans to shrink their business.

Some other points on this thread:

-- no, they are not particularly focused on getting kids to collect... selling boxes of cards for $100-$500 is, unsurprisingly, way more profitable for them. No need to break away from this model.

-- Also -- we can't undo the GU/AU/"hit" nature of the hobby at this point. You just can't unring that bell. People are looking for value per box, for fun hits with resale value, for mojo and for the buzz of small-stakes gambling. You can offer products (Opening Day) that are not designed for this market, but at this point they are for a very limited audience. Who here buys Opening Day boxes?? Card store owners, would you be excited to try to sell a product with fewer hits, fewer GU, fewer AU, lower resale value, alongside the current selection of products?

 

[maxe0213]

Inception is a nice looking product for sure but that price tag it's hideous.

Three autos for $100 vs 6 sterling autos for $100? And sterling isn't completely loaded with second third fourth year prospect autos.

Sent from my HTCONE using Freedom Card Board mobile app

Its 5 autos for 100 in Inception bud. And they look much nicer than Sterling. AND the checklist is much better.

You can offer products (Opening Day) that are not designed for this market, but at this point they are for a very limited audience. Who here buys Opening Day boxes??

I myself was a victim of opening day. I probably opened 10 blasters and 1 hobby box because when I first came back into the hobby a few years back as an 18 year old I was like "Wait I can buy this for 10 bucks or this same blaster different cards for 20. I think I'll save the 10 bucks and buy the cheaper one." (Thats before I knew what I was looking for and what products to break, its a nice cheap product but virtually no value is in there.)

 

[Mighty Bombjack]

You're not crazy, but you're not thinking at all like a business.

Can you imagine getting a job at Topps and then trying to sell them on a plan where they will make LESS money and need to fire employees?

If you all want to change the hobby from the inside like this thread is about, then you need to think about propositions that make Topps (or whomever) MORE profit, AND change the hobby in a direction you like. Topps is by all accounts a decently successful company that is making plenty of money -- they're not in a crisis like some are projecting, so they are not going to be interested in plans to shrink their business.

Some other points on this thread:

-- no, they are not particularly focused on getting kids to collect... selling boxes of cards for $100-$500 is, unsurprisingly, way more profitable for them. No need to break away from this model.

-- Also -- we can't undo the GU/AU/"hit" nature of the hobby at this point. You just can't unring that bell. People are looking for value per box, for fun hits with resale value, for mojo and for the buzz of small-stakes gambling. You can offer products (Opening Day) that are not designed for this market, but at this point they are for a very limited audience. Who here buys Opening Day boxes?? Card store owners, would you be excited to try to sell a product with fewer hits, fewer GU, fewer AU, lower resale value, alongside the current selection of products?

To your first point, I was trying to say that while revenue would go down, overall profit COULD stay the same if cuts were made and downscaling were done right.

To your final point, I fear that you're right. Breakers have become addicted to hits. No dealer keeps his profits by saying "here's the NEW crack, now with 60 percent less cocaine!"

the hobby may be too far gone.

 

[BBCgalaxee]

Right, five autos in inception my bad.

Still 5 is less than six for the same price and inception, while nice looking, didn't look better than sterling and checklist isn't Better than sterling. But that's just my opinion.

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[maxe0213]

Right, five autos in inception my bad.

Still 5 is less than six for the same price and inception, while nice looking, didn't look better than sterling and checklist isn't Better than sterling. But that's just my opinion.

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I don't see how you can say the checklist isn't better. But alright! I know its just an opinion.

Sterling is an awful product IMO. Cards sell for dirt and never holds any value. Inception is here to stay as it was extremely well received in the hobby. Probably in the top 3 products for Baseball last year.

 

[petMonster]

Right, five autos in inception my bad.

Still 5 is less than six for the same price and inception, while nice looking, didn't look better than sterling and checklist isn't Better than sterling. But that's just my opinion.

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I don't see how you can say the checklist isn't better. But alright! I know its just an opinion.

Sterling is an awful product IMO. Cards sell for dirt and never holds any value. Inception is here to stay as it was extremely well received in the hobby. Probably in the top 3 products for Baseball last year.

This is a perfect example of why the hobby itself is NOT broken. No one single person could say they know how to "fix" the hobby because they would merely be acting on their own opinion. I, for one, don't like either product all that much and wouldn't spend my hard earned money on any of it. The both of you obviously disagree. So who's right and who's wrong? Obviously there's no factual answer to that question.

I think the real problem is that hobbyists themselves might be a little broken. All the manufacturers make a ton of different product and many collectors out there think they have an obligation to keep up with it all, or some just can't stand the idea that a product they don't personally like might still be on the shelves next year. Guess what?....Topps doesn't make Bowman Sterling for the Bowman Inception fan, and vice versa. Some people may like both, some may like neither, and some might like one or the other. They don't even LOOK the same! So why are you guys arguing about this? Neither of you are right or wrong...it's all about different strokes for different folks.

I say pick what you like and stick with it. If you hate that a product doesn't yield a good ROI, then don't support it. If you think prospect products are too much like playing the lottery and you're likely not going to win (nor can you afford to not win), then don't buy it. If you hate the design of a particular set, then don't buy it. If you think a product is just downright too confusing (like I feel about Bowman/BC), then don't buy it. If you hate that a product doesn't use MLB logos and team names, then don't buy it. If Inception has good enough sales every year, then despite the fact that YOU don't like it, it's probably here to stay. If Sterling has good enough sales, then that will probably stick around as well. If a certain product fails miserably because most people truly don't like it, then it will vanish. Unfortunately, sometimes people hate a product but feel obligated to buy it anyway for some reason, and this sends the wrong message to the manufacturer. If you hate a product but have continued to spend money on it, then you are contributing to the success of this problem and have no right to ever complain about it again.

 

[petMonster]

As for my own innovative ideas, I think players should be given instant Polaroid cameras and take selfies and pics of other players, and then the player who took the pic and the player(s) in the pic should sign it and give it back to a card rep. These can then make their way into product as box toppers. The card manufacturer could even slab it nicely like A&G does with its mini GU, auto, and plates.

 

[petMonster]

Also, the internet really did change the hobby in such a way that was extremely good, as well as extremely bad. It's great because you can find out info about just about any card release, or you can find and obtain really rare stuff for your collection that without the internet might have been impossible to locate in your lifetime. But at the same time, now everything is WAY TOO AVAILABLE. The internet doesn't really hurt the value of extremely rare cards, but all those other cards that you USED to need to go to the LCS or the LC show, or even trade with buddies to obtain...those particular cards hold almost zero value now that you can find them by the hundreds on eBay and other sites at any given time. It means that the vast majority of the cards you find in packs are almost completely irrelevant. If you could crash the internet overnight, I guarantee some of those cool looking insert cards or base rookies or high numbered autos would start to gain some value again. What the companies could do to combat this global access is to bring production numbers way down across the board. But obviously most manufacturers don't care that the market is flooded with product as long as people keep buying it. Why would they ever make all their releases limited enough for collectability/value sake if it doesn't actually do anything for, or even hurt, their own bottom line? What's good for hobbyists isn't always good for the manufacturer.

 

[maxe0213]

The internet also brought in tons of collectors to this hobby. I know if the internet wasn't available I would more than likely not be apart of this hobby. Without the internet it is so much more difficult to have a deep collection especially if there are only one or two hobby shops around (and in some cases none).

 

[petMonster]

I'm gonna keep going since I'm on a roll....

Another innovation the hobby could use is more trickery. I can't tell you how often I hear a new story of:

...a special promo card from the mid 1990's that was supposed to be destroyed after a new promo version was made but the original somehow made it to the market.

...a special oversized card from the early 90's that was only included in retail boxes that were eventually pulled from shelves and destroyed because sales were so awful.

...a special insert card from the late 90's that was produced in extremely rare quantity before the manufacturer had to file for bankruptcy, but the limited card made it out alive.

...etc.

There are countless cards that have been shrouded in mystery for a while and have gained legendary status as a result. Many of those (like the 1990 Frank Thomas NNOF) happened on accident, and others (like the 2013 A&G Glossies or the Crash the Game instant winners) happened on purpose. Regardless, this mystery/trickery gets people excited, and it often leads them on some sort of journey for answers. If you put a lot of time and effort into figuring out about a certain card or even a whole product, it's likely to mean a little more to you than something that was all spelled out for you in a checklist.

People might site A&G's Crack the Code mystery as an example of trickery/mystery that doesn't work on the average collector, but Ginter forces you to connect all the dots to figure it out. I'm talking about cards released through random channels like contests or at events or through mail-in offers, etc...but just don't announce all the details. For example, if you have a contest with 500 winners (10 from each state), then each winner could receive a card or a set, but they might receive a variation based on what state they live in. One of these lucky contest winners from each state could receive an even further variation (creating 50 total 1/1's) and just don't tell them about it. When some of these make there way to eBay, people will eventually notice discrepancies and then the questions/adventures begin. Where did these cards come from? How many variations are there? What's the print run of each? All that digging is sure to capture the hearts and minds of a good number of collectors out there. And I can think of a dozen more examples off the top of my head, so if I can do it, I'm sure the card manufacturers could come up with a ton of great ideas.

 

[petMonster]

The internet also brought in tons of collectors to this hobby. I know if the internet wasn't available I would more than likely not be apart of this hobby. Without the internet it is so much more difficult to have a deep collection especially if there are only one or two hobby shops around (and in some cases none).

I totally agree...that's why I say it's both good an bad. But there is no going back on the internet. We will not un-invent the internet. That being said, we can embrace the internet but also adjust to the problem of cards being way too available. Name a card off the top of your head and I bet I can find several of them on eBay right this second. And if I want to buy it, I'm going to buy it from the guy who's selling it for cheaper. This drives the price down because there is no amount of rarity on the vast majority of the cards you would randomly name. And this really does make them irrelevant.

Now consider finding that same card at a LCS (and there's no internet). If you name a hometown guy (like Adam Jones, since I'm in Baltimore), there's a pretty good chance (but not a guarantee) that I can find the card at the LCS. But if I'm looking for an Austin Jackson insert card, there's a pretty good chance it will NOT be at my LCS. If by some lucky chance I see it there, I'm willing to pay a little more for it because I might not see it again for a while. That gives it slightly more value because I'm now willing to pay a little more for it.

If card manufacturers would seriously cut back on production, then some of these base cards and cool inserts and etc would still be somewhat easy to find online, but if there was no guarantee you'd see it online every single day that you searched for it, it would probably make it slightly more relevant to many people. As it stands right now, I could probably buy a huge lot of Austin Jackson 2013 Bowman base cards and wipe my butt with them and it really wouldn't matter that much because they are overflowing from every site that sells baseball cards, and they are probably cheaper than toilet paper.

 

[maxe0213]

Totally agree with what you are saying. Another thing is that there are just so many DAMN PARALLELS. in 2013 Bowman Draft I can't even count without going to a checklist. It has to be 15 plus parallels per player if you count the red wave, blue wave, silver wave, black wave, and every chrome/paper parallel. Now cards numbered /15 or /35 (The black refractors I believe because they are numbered different in chrome and draft) are worth almost nothing. Normally a card /15 would be a fairly rare card but because there are so many parallels you can pick up plenty of the /50 and lower cards for a buck or cheaper. I love chrome color but its just so un-valuable now.