AL Cy Young?

[vwnut13]

John Kruk says Price>Buchholz because Price has more K and hasn't missed a start or spent time on the DL.

OK. So why Price>Sabathia?

Price has three more starts. 30 more innings, and the stats are nearly identical.

 

[Canocollector#1]

Just making my case for CC-

Since the Start of June he is 13-2

In that same span he has 16 consecutive quality starts, which is third longest streak by any AL pitcher this millennium. Others being Santana (21) in 2004 and Felix Hernandez (19) last year.

During the same span he had gotten at least 1 out in the 7th inning in 15 consecutive starts, which was snapped today due to a long rain delay. It was the longest streak by an AL pitcher since Jack Morris in 1983, who did that in (19) consecutive starts.

My case against would be that Buchholz ERA is 25% lower than Sabathia's. More than makes up for the two less wins IMO.

Right, but CC has 48.1 more IP than Buchholz and has 55 more SO. Coming into today, before they both made their starts, CC B/9 was 3.0 and Buchholz was 3.4. Again coming into today CC 7.1 K/9 and Buchholz 6.0 K/9. Again same thing, CC K/B 2.34 and Buchholz 2.78.

 

[Wes]

[quote="Canocollector#1":1ptuwl1g]Just making my case for CC-

Since the Start of June he is 13-2

In that same span he has 16 consecutive quality starts, which is third longest streak by any AL pitcher this millennium. Others being Santana (21) in 2004 and Felix Hernandez (19) last year.

During the same span he had gotten at least 1 out in the 7th inning in 15 consecutive starts, which was snapped today due to a long rain delay. It was the longest streak by an AL pitcher since Jack Morris in 1983, who did that in (19) consecutive starts.

My case against would be that Buchholz ERA is 25% lower than Sabathia's. More than makes up for the two less wins IMO.

Right, but CC has 48.1 more IP than Buchholz and has 55 more SO. Coming into today, before they both made their starts, CC B/9 was 3.0 and Buchholz was 3.4. Again coming into today CC 7.1 K/9 and Buchholz 6.0 K/9. Again same thing, CC K/B 2.34 and Buchholz 2.78.[/quote:1ptuwl1g]

K rates are important but I would still put ERA above them in terms of effectiveness.

 

[MallCopKJ]

Clay Buchholz in August 4-0, 0.99 ERA.

 

[scotty21690]

John Kruk says Price>Buchholz because Price has more K and hasn't missed a start or spent time on the DL.

That's bullcrap that Buchholz gets penalized for missing a few starts!

For those of you who think that CC should get it over Clay, not only does Clay have the lowest ERA in the AL but he also has a lower WHIP than CC (IMO WHIP and ERA are the two most important stats of a pitcher). That is also why I would probably give the nod to CC over Price if I had to choose one of them right now.


One more thing to condsider is that the Red Sox have a .772 winning % when Buchholz starts and the Yankees have a .703 winning % when CC starts.

 

[Topnotchsy]

John Kruk says Price>Buchholz because Price has more K and hasn't missed a start or spent time on the DL.

That's bullcrap that Buchholz gets penalized for missing a few starts!

For those of you who think that CC should get it over Clay, not only does Clay have the lowest ERA in the AL but he also has a lower WHIP than CC (IMO WHIP and ERA are the two most important stats of a pitcher). That is also why I would probably give the nod to CC over Price if I had to choose one of them right now.


One more thing to condsider is that the Red Sox have a .772 winning % when Buchholz starts and the Yankees have a .703 winning % when CC starts.

I picked Buchholz, but don't agree with the bolded statement. You can only help your team win if you are out there, and therefore are far less valuable when not playing.

Further, the winning percentage in starts is a completely irrelevant stat. It looks nice, but in fact when considering it next to wins and loses, the better the numbers are, the worse the pitcher has done and the more times he was bailed out. (Think about it, if the pitcher was winning when he left the game and the team lost he gets a no-decision and the win-loss record in his starts goes down. If he is losing and gets bailed out and they win the win-loss percentage in his starts will go up with no affect on his win-loss. There are examples where there was more than one change in who is winning so the numbers do not tell the complete story, but a high win-loss per start ratio when compared to actual win loss record is often an indicator that he got bailed out a lot.) Not saying this is the case with Buchholz.

 

[bigpops65]

I would say it is Clay Buchholz, David Price and CC Sabathia, in that order.

Cliff Lee is out of the discussion because he hasn't produced in Texas.

Felix Hernandez is out of the discussion because he is a game under .500.

Buchholz gets the nod because of how effective he has pitched, seemingly always getting through 7 innings in his starts, especially since the break (yesterday he was cut off after six innings because of the rain delays). And, he is the AL Leader in ERA and has 15 wins so far.

I wish I knew someone with a large stash of his rookies. :mrgreen:

 

[daveyou]

selfish part of me says david price but he's hit a little bit of a wall recently and unless he finishes strong, he's out

since i hardly watch the yanks or red sox, i have to go by the numbers and cc is pitching lights out! if he keeps up, i'd give him a slight edge over clay. lester's pitching pretty decent as well so that might negate the voting a bit?

my personal favorite that i voted for is felix hernandez. sucks that his record is the way it is because the mariners can't score when he pitches. lol! johan of the american league.

very very impressed with his 3 starts against the yanks this year. 3-0, pitching 8 or more innings and giving up only 1 earned run in that three games if my memory serves me correctly

dave

 

[Russ S.]

 

[Sly]

I'm going to throw this out as another knock against Buchholz (and Price):

He has 7 starts where he pitched LESS than 6 innings (including a 1 IP outing before he went on the DL).

Compare that to Felix who has 2, CC has 3, Lee has 1. Hell, Price has 5 - though frankly, Price has 11 games where he's gone 6 or less (nearly half his starts).

To me, a Cy Young pitcher needs to go deep into games, and going 5-6 innings is not going deep.

 

[RL24]

K rates are important but I would still put ERA above them in terms of effectiveness.

The same arguments used against W-L records can be used for ERA. It's all up to your bullpen. How many inherited runners have the their bullpens allowed to score?

It's really messed up for relievers, because they can come into the game with the bases loaded, allow 3 runs to score, and get out of the inning with a 0.00 ERA. Maybe the starting pitcher had pitched 8 innings and allowed 0 runs, but his ERA just went from 0 to 2.66 even though he didn't allow any runs to score. He was just responsible for them.

I think both of the numbers are important, but I believe there is a lot of luck involved. (See the Ubaldo 30 Win thread...)


I think CC is going to win it. He has been heating up, as he usually does this time of year. Yesterday's game was awesome... 6 IP, 3 H, O ER, 8 SO... and the best part is he only threw 76 pitches. It was almost like a day off. He'll be more rested than usual going into the stretch where he normally tears it up. Could get scary... it might be Milwaukee all over again!

 

[bigpops65]

I'm going to throw this out as another knock against Buchholz (and Price):

He has 7 starts where he pitched LESS than 6 innings (including a 1 IP outing before he went on the DL).

Compare that to Felix who has 2, CC has 3, Lee has 1. Hell, Price has 5 - though frankly, Price has 11 games where he's gone 6 or less (nearly half his starts).

To me, a Cy Young pitcher needs to go deep into games, and going 5-6 innings is not going deep.

Just as a note, the 1 IP outing was at San Francisco, and it was the game he pulled his hamstring running the bases.

If one of the criteria is how a pitcher does down the stretch, Buchholz is 7-1 in his last 10 start (including the 1 IP against SF and 4 IP against Oakland in his first start after the injury). His ERA in those 10 starts is 1.93, and he has allowed just 48 hits in 60 2/3 innings. He's also gone AT LEAST six innings in each of his last six starts, and hasn't allowed an earned run in his last three.

 

[vwnut13]

I'm going to throw this out as another knock against Buchholz (and Price):

He has 7 starts where he pitched LESS than 6 innings (including a 1 IP outing before he went on the DL).

Compare that to Felix who has 2, CC has 3, Lee has 1. Hell, Price has 5 - though frankly, Price has 11 games where he's gone 6 or less (nearly half his starts).

To me, a Cy Young pitcher needs to go deep into games, and going 5-6 innings is not going deep.

Just as a note, the 1 IP outing was at San Francisco, and it was the game he pulled his hamstring running the bases.

If one of the criteria is how a pitcher does down the stretch, Buchholz is 7-1 in his last 10 start (including the 1 IP against SF and 4 IP against Oakland in his first start after the injury). His ERA in those 10 starts is 1.93, and he has allowed just 48 hits in 60 2/3 innings. He's also gone AT LEAST six innings in each of his last six starts, and hasn't allowed an earned run in his last three.

Sabathia is 13-2 since June.

And about percentage of games started that the team won, if a player has started five less games does that really matter?

That means that Buchholz has not gone out and allowed the redsox to win when he started FIVE less times than Sabathia.

If the Yankees were to win tonight the Yankees would have a winning percentage of 1.000 when Nova starts. Does that make him better than Sabathia and Buchholz, and every other pitcher in baseball?

_____________________________


And, I would like to see the argument as to why Price is better than Sabathia (not directed at you).

Is it because he isn't a Yankee?
Is it because you prospected him?
Is it because you own some of his cards?

Just wondering all.

 

[scotty21690]

John Kruk says Price>Buchholz because Price has more K and hasn't missed a start or spent time on the DL.

That's bullcrap that Buchholz gets penalized for missing a few starts!

For those of you who think that CC should get it over Clay, not only does Clay have the lowest ERA in the AL but he also has a lower WHIP than CC (IMO WHIP and ERA are the two most important stats of a pitcher). That is also why I would probably give the nod to CC over Price if I had to choose one of them right now.


One more thing to condsider is that the Red Sox have a .772 winning % when Buchholz starts and the Yankees have a .703 winning % when CC starts.

I picked Buchholz, but don't agree with the bolded statement. You can only help your team win if you are out there, and therefore are far less valuable when not playing.

Well that is not his fault that he got hurt, it's baseball and it happens. IMO if he meets the minimum requirements then missing a few starts should not matter because when he has pitched he has been that effective and has given his team a great chance of winning.

Further, the winning percentage in starts is a completely irrelevant stat. It looks nice, but in fact when considering it next to wins and loses, the better the numbers are, the worse the pitcher has done and the more times he was bailed out. (Think about it, if the pitcher was winning when he left the game and the team lost he gets a no-decision and the win-loss record in his starts goes down. If he is losing and gets bailed out and they win the win-loss percentage in his starts will go up with no affect on his win-loss. There are examples where there was more than one change in who is winning so the numbers do not tell the complete story, but a high win-loss per start ratio when compared to actual win loss record is often an indicator that he got bailed out a lot.) Not saying this is the case with Buchholz

While I agree the W/L may be irrelevant (see: Felix Hernandez) I just thought that the W% in GS was an interesting stat.

I definitely understand your argument but in games in which he starts the Red Sox are 17-5, actual record of 15-5. One of the NDs was the game in which he was injured (he only pitched one inning) and the other he pitched 8 innings and only 1 ER and the Red Sox won it in the 9th. Two of his losses were QSs, and another he had 4R but 0ER. He has been that good of a pitcher this season.


One more interesting thing, is that when people say that a certain pitcher has a lot of wins because they get really good run support.

Buchholz has 3 wins in 5 starts when his team scores 0-2 runs (1.78 ERA/1.047 WHIP). Now that is impressive, IMO.
CC has 1 win in 5 starts when his team scores 0-2 runs (3.79 ERA/1.374 WHIP)

CC is the better pitcher when his team scores 3-5 runs (7-1 2.47ERA/1.203WHIP) then Clay (2-3 3.15ERA/1.405WHIP)

When Buchholz gets 6+ runs of support he is (10-0 2.01 ERA 1.164 WHIP in 10 starts) and CC is (9-0 3.13ERA 1.17 WHIP in 13 starts)


So yes Buchholz gets pretty decent run support but he has pitched well enough to make that argument obsolete.


If the season ended now I would say that Buchholz would be the front runner. There is still a lot of baseball left so you never know who will make a move (Felix winning his last 8 starts?! lol). I am going to assume it will be between CC and Clay so it will be interesting to see how they pitch until the end of the season as Clay has never been in this position before. That's the great thing about baseball, ANYTHING can happen.

 

[scotty21690]

I'm going to throw this out as another knock against Buchholz (and Price):

He has 7 starts where he pitched LESS than 6 innings (including a 1 IP outing before he went on the DL).

Compare that to Felix who has 2, CC has 3, Lee has 1. Hell, Price has 5 - though frankly, Price has 11 games where he's gone 6 or less (nearly half his starts).

To me, a Cy Young pitcher needs to go deep into games, and going 5-6 innings is not going deep.

Clay has 10 starts out of 21 (The injured start doesnt really count) in which he has pitched 7+ innings, which is almost half his starts. I consider 7+ going deep into games. He has never had this kind of workload before in the bigs so I'm sure Francona doesn't want him to throw out his arm this early in his career. He did pitch almost 200 total innings last year but I would assume that is his limit. Francona doesn't usually let him pitch past 110 pitches either. He most likely would have gone 7 innings last start had we not gone through 7 rain delays during the game, lol. CC is a workhorse and is expected to pitch a ton of innings over the course of a season.

 

[Sly]

I'm going to throw this out as another knock against Buchholz (and Price):

He has 7 starts where he pitched LESS than 6 innings (including a 1 IP outing before he went on the DL).

Compare that to Felix who has 2, CC has 3, Lee has 1. Hell, Price has 5 - though frankly, Price has 11 games where he's gone 6 or less (nearly half his starts).

To me, a Cy Young pitcher needs to go deep into games, and going 5-6 innings is not going deep.

Clay has 10 starts out of 21 (The injured start doesnt really count) in which he has pitched 7+ innings, which is almost half his starts. I consider 7+ going deep into games. He has never had this kind of workload before in the bigs so I'm sure Francona doesn't want him to throw out his arm this early in his career. He did pitch almost 200 total innings last year but I would assume that is his limit. Francona doesn't usually let him pitch past 110 pitches either. He most likely would have gone 7 innings last start had we not gone through 7 rain delays during the game, lol. CC is a workhorse and is expected to pitch a ton of innings over the course of a season.

That kind of proves my point. So not even HALF the time Buchholz is going "deep into the game." On the other hand, Felix has gone 7+ IP in 19 of 27 starts, CC has it in 18 of his 27 starts and Lee has in 19 of his 22 starts (THAT'S impressive). Price meanwhile has done it in only 11 of his 24 starts.

Again, just my personal opinion, but regardless of wins (which are overrated), it's between CC, Felix and Lee.