Another post on how ridiculously good Jamie Moyer is

[Wes]

When Moyer sucks, he sucks, but for 8 mil we get an era of 4.56, you guys are paying Lackey 18.8 mil for an era
of 4.65?

Is that the best you can come up with? While I am not a Lackey fan, I HIGHLY doubt his ERA will be anywhere near 4.65 by the end of the year.

Yeah lets get serious, Lackey is pitching in the AL East - comparing ERA's across leagues is pointless.

 

[Lancemountain]

Pitcher IP PC H ER BB K
Moyer 1.0 54 8 7 1 1


:|

 

[P_Manning 18]

add another hit and ER to that total and u have his line for today.... 8 runs allowed ouch.

 

[schmidtfan20]

would an era of 3.80 be better for a guy making that money? lol you all overspent

 

[Jays_Cards]

would an era of 3.80 be better for a guy making that money? lol you all overspent

I absolutely agree with you. Talking about overspending, look at Howard :lol:

 

[jay1065]

would an era of 3.80 be better for a guy making that money? lol you all overspent

I'm a die-hard Sox fan, but I agree that the Sox did overspend for Lackey. Out of all the signings the Sox made prior to this season, signing Lackey made me feel uneasy. I never thought of him as "dominant" with the Angels, and he admitted that he hated pitching at Fenway. Three months in to the season, I'm not impressed. Hopefully he'll prove me wrong from today on.

 

[rebelpawn]

would an era of 3.80 be better for a guy making that money? lol you all overspent

Dude, your boy got waxed tonight, deal with it. It happens to every team and every fan goes though it. Be a man and admit it instead of trying to make yourself feel better by putting down the other team and its fans.

 

[matfanofold]

Every player in baseball would be a "compiler" if they had the talent to do so.

Either way, lifetime stats regardless of if you play for 5 years or 50 years should be considered equally.

Preach on!

One of the toughest things to teach younger collectors, in perticular, the statictic hounds, is the intangables thad add an equal weight to any modern HOF candidate. And longevity is one of thoes. Compiler or not, with each game Moyer pitches, his HOF worth and probability goes up ecpecially with outings like this. I know I've said it before, but I feel everytime I read posts like this I'm forced to do so again...

You can not statisticly compare HOF'ers to different era players, for many reasons. But most of all, because what made a certain player popular throughout the decades greatly differs from era to era. In the begining of the Hall, and the begining of Base Ball, Raw talent and production made for a popular player. There was no internet, or instant 'day to day life' reporting on everyone. All most had to go by on 99.9% of thoes players were word of mouth. And what dictated a players Popularity back when was WS rings, and statistics.

Now, we are fortunate enough to get to 'know' most players on a personal level, and get to scrutinize there every move, on and off the field. Television and 'up to the minute' reporting has made it easy to create a 'face of the game' type player with less than "HOF type stats" because of personality and antics, on and off the field. And just because some do not like it, it does not negate the FACT that popularity has just as large a role in guaging a players HOF worth and statistical greatness.

Point being, that even though Moyer has never had 'HOF type stuff', his longevity, and growing popularity with each and every start is starting to add up with thoes career numbers, creating a very legitimate argument for his induction validity. Now, do I think he will ever be a first ballot, or a top tier HOF'er? Of course not. But if he can continue to produce the rest of the year, and possibly another 1 or 2, it will be hard to negate his accomplishment.

 

[fengzhang]

10-9 with a 4.2 ERA.

If that's your average year, you won't get in. I don't care if you play this game for 50 years.

 

[maxpower]

Every player in baseball would be a "compiler" if they had the talent to do so.

Either way, lifetime stats regardless of if you play for 5 years or 50 years should be considered equally.

Could not disagree more on your last point. 500 HRs in ten years is absolutely not the same as 500 HRs over fifty years. Longevity is ONE factor in determining a player's value, but it's only one and it cuts both ways. Durability is good, but lower efficiency is bad.

 

[maxpower]

Every player in baseball would be a "compiler" if they had the talent to do so.

Either way, lifetime stats regardless of if you play for 5 years or 50 years should be considered equally.

Preach on!

One of the toughest things to teach younger collectors, in perticular, the statictic hounds, is the intangables thad add an equal weight to any modern HOF candidate. And longevity is one of thoes. Compiler or not, with each game Moyer pitches, his HOF worth and probability goes up ecpecially with outings like this. I know I've said it before, but I feel everytime I read posts like this I'm forced to do so again...

You can not statisticly compare HOF'ers to different era players, for many reasons. But most of all, because what made a certain player popular throughout the decades greatly differs from era to era. In the begining of the Hall, and the begining of Base Ball, Raw talent and production made for a popular player. There was no internet, or instant 'day to day life' reporting on everyone. All most had to go by on 99.9% of thoes players were word of mouth. And what dictated a players Popularity back when was WS rings, and statistics.

Now, we are fortunate enough to get to 'know' most players on a personal level, and get to scrutinize there every move, on and off the field. Television and 'up to the minute' reporting has made it easy to create a 'face of the game' type player with less than "HOF type stats" because of personality and antics, on and off the field. And just because some do not like it, it does not negate the FACT that popularity has just as large a role in guaging a players HOF worth and statistical greatness.

Point being, that even though Moyer has never had 'HOF type stuff', his longevity, and growing popularity with each and every start is starting to add up with thoes career numbers, creating a very legitimate argument for his induction validity. Now, do I think he will ever be a first ballot, or a top tier HOF'er? Of course not. But if he can continue to produce the rest of the year, and possibly another 1 or 2, it will be hard to negate his accomplishment.

Interesting discussion. I agree that Moyer's chances for induction are better than some people think, but I think it will be based mostly on popularity and the 'story', rather than his on field greatness.

Whether that's a legitimate reason is up for debate. Personally, I'm impressed that he's been able to be effective for so long and I can understand why people like him. That being said, I think people get carried away by their personal feelings. This thread is a perfect case in point. 'Ridiculously good'? More like 'very solid'. In the league of Smoltz, Glavine, Griffey, or Thomas? Again, those guys were elite at their best AND had long careers, while Moyer was merely solid for a long time.

 

[Wes]

Every player in baseball would be a "compiler" if they had the talent to do so.

Either way, lifetime stats regardless of if you play for 5 years or 50 years should be considered equally.

Preach on!

One of the toughest things to teach younger collectors, in perticular, the statictic hounds, is the intangables thad add an equal weight to any modern HOF candidate. And longevity is one of thoes. Compiler or not, with each game Moyer pitches, his HOF worth and probability goes up ecpecially with outings like this. I know I've said it before, but I feel everytime I read posts like this I'm forced to do so again...

You can not statisticly compare HOF'ers to different era players, for many reasons. But most of all, because what made a certain player popular throughout the decades greatly differs from era to era. In the begining of the Hall, and the begining of Base Ball, Raw talent and production made for a popular player. There was no internet, or instant 'day to day life' reporting on everyone. All most had to go by on 99.9% of thoes players were word of mouth. And what dictated a players Popularity back when was WS rings, and statistics.

Now, we are fortunate enough to get to 'know' most players on a personal level, and get to scrutinize there every move, on and off the field. Television and 'up to the minute' reporting has made it easy to create a 'face of the game' type player with less than "HOF type stats" because of personality and antics, on and off the field. And just because some do not like it, it does not negate the FACT that popularity has just as large a role in guaging a players HOF worth and statistical greatness.

Point being, that even though Moyer has never had 'HOF type stuff', his longevity, and growing popularity with each and every start is starting to add up with thoes career numbers, creating a very legitimate argument for his induction validity. Now, do I think he will ever be a first ballot, or a top tier HOF'er? Of course not. But if he can continue to produce the rest of the year, and possibly another 1 or 2, it will be hard to negate his accomplishment.

Interesting discussion. I agree that Moyer's chances for induction are better than some people think, but I think it will be based mostly on popularity and the 'story', rather than his on field greatness.

Whether that's a legitimate reason is up for debate. Personally, I'm impressed that he's been able to be effective for so long and I can understand why people like him. That being said, I think people get carried away by their personal feelings. This thread is a perfect case in point. 'Ridiculously good'? More like 'very solid'. In the league of Smoltz, Glavine, Griffey, or Thomas? Again, those guys were elite at their best AND had long careers, while Moyer was merely solid for a long time.

I would argue that Moyer has just barely been above average and I would contend that he would immediately become the worst pitcher in the HOF by a good margin.

 

[markakis8]

Well said.

Every player in baseball would be a "compiler" if they had the talent to do so.

Either way, lifetime stats regardless of if you play for 5 years or 50 years should be considered equally.

 

[Vagrant]

I think another point is that the Hall of Fame is for famous players. That also has to be considered. There are players that have benefited from being in high profile markets and that helped to bridge the gap between other players who perhaps were just as deserving. The thing about Moyer is that the more people talk about him, good or bad, the more famous he gets. Everybody knows the oldest player in the game right now and what he's doing at 47 is amazing and hasn't been seen for a long time. It's actually kind of funny. The more haters he gets, the more famous he gets. The more you talk about him, the more he's talked about. While I understand that fame and infamy are two different things, I have a feeling that the people that are going to be voting on Moyer in the future will have a much more immense amount of respect for what he's doing now than we ever will.

I would say that Moyer has been right up there with the most talked about pitchers in baseball for the last 3 or 4 years. That helps his case a lot more than one might think.

 

[markakis8]

There is no doubt Moyer will be the "worst HOF pitcher" (I refuse to give him the title "worst HOF" with Rizzuto in there) if one wants to put such a label on a HOFer.

These debates can get pretty heated b/c on one level many are saying "no way" b/c of their opinion on whether he SHOULD be in the HOF and refuse to look at the entire picture (these are the same people that were saying no way to Rice, Dawson, Sutter, etc.) and others are merely saying he WILL, whether they think he deserves it or not.

I fall into the latter - but only if he gets to 300 wins. He has to get to 300. If he does, he's in period. Do I like it? I really don't care anymore who gets in and who doesn't. It's not the Hall of Fame anymore.

I would argue that Moyer has just barely been above average and I would contend that he would immediately become the worst pitcher in the HOF by a good margin.

 

[Vagrant]

Take this into consideration. I know that the hall of fame is not for "oddities", but what we're watching with Jamie Moyer is a player who mastered the art of finesse pitching to a degree that Greg Maddux would be proud to represent. There are few players who have done more with less natural talent than those two pitchers.

Jamie Moyer had gone 59-76 right until his 33 year old season in the major leagues. Then he goes to Seattle.

In 11 seasons with Seattle, Moyer has a record of 145-87 with a 3.97 ERA. Twice won 20 games during that stretch. 20 complete games with 6 shutouts.

For comparison sake, Roy Oswalt in his 10+ year career now sits with a career record of 141-78 with a 3.23 ERA. Twice won 20 games during that stretch. 18 complete games and 6 shutouts.

I don't think anybody here would argue that Oswalt isn't a staff ace, yet would argue all day long that Moyer with Seattle wasn't a staff ace but rather just a wily vet with sneaky skills.

The man has won 200+ games after his 33rd birthday. It goes beyond anything we've ever seen. He did it without a dominant pitch. Without a 95 MPH heater. Without striking out a man per inning. He just gutted through on hard work and never quit even when the odds were stacked against him. He never stopped working on becoming a better pitcher.

It's sad that this could be the most amazing story in baseball and a lot of people are doubting that. At an age where most pitchers start slowing down considerably, Moyer accelerated to levels he had never reached prior to that.

Had he played his first 10 years in the MLB as well as he played those 11 in Seattle, we'd be talking about the potential to reach 400 wins right now.

 

[200lbhockeyplayer]

The Rizzuto argument fails quickly on the "fame" issue, Rizzuto was indeed a star of the day...Moyer was perhaps for a season.

During Moyer's "ridiculously good" career he never once led his league in anything accept for earned runs and he did that twice. Is that a Hall of Famer? At least Don Sutton led the league ERA once and was selected to a whopping 4 All-Star games compared to Moyer's big ONE.

Come on, I'll never get this argument that he should be considered one of the greatest players in the history of the game.

Is it impressive that he is able to continue to pitch at his age at this level? Of course, but an employee who has worked for the same company for 60 years doesn't automatically warrant "Employee of the Year" consideration, why should he?

We've evolved into a weird little "award people for doing their job" society.

 

[gt2590]

Once in a while, Moyer gets bombed, especially by a team that takes alot of pitches. But he's been much better this year than I would have thought. He's beloved in the clubhouse and the community too.

But he will need to get to 300 wins to get into Cooperstown.

 

[Wes]

Take this into consideration. I know that the hall of fame is not for "oddities", but what we're watching with Jamie Moyer is a player who mastered the art of finesse pitching to a degree that Greg Maddux would be proud to represent. There are few players who have done more with less natural talent than those two pitchers.

Jamie Moyer had gone 59-76 right until his 33 year old season in the major leagues. Then he goes to Seattle.

In 11 seasons with Seattle, Moyer has a record of 145-87 with a 3.97 ERA. Twice won 20 games during that stretch. 20 complete games with 6 shutouts.

For comparison sake, Roy Oswalt in his 10+ year career now sits with a career record of 141-78 with a 3.23 ERA. Twice won 20 games during that stretch. 18 complete games and 6 shutouts.

I don't think anybody here would argue that Oswalt isn't a staff ace, yet would argue all day long that Moyer with Seattle wasn't a staff ace but rather just a wily vet with sneaky skills.

The man has won 200+ games after his 33rd birthday. It goes beyond anything we've ever seen. He did it without a dominant pitch. Without a 95 MPH heater. Without striking out a man per inning. He just gutted through on hard work and never quit even when the odds were stacked against him. He never stopped working on becoming a better pitcher.

It's sad that this could be the most amazing story in baseball and a lot of people are doubting that. At an age where most pitchers start slowing down considerably, Moyer accelerated to levels he had never reached prior to that.

Had he played his first 10 years in the MLB as well as he played those 11 in Seattle, we'd be talking about the potential to reach 400 wins right now.

Sucking for a decade should hurt your resume.

 

[Vagrant]

Take this into consideration. I know that the hall of fame is not for "oddities", but what we're watching with Jamie Moyer is a player who mastered the art of finesse pitching to a degree that Greg Maddux would be proud to represent. There are few players who have done more with less natural talent than those two pitchers.

Jamie Moyer had gone 59-76 right until his 33 year old season in the major leagues. Then he goes to Seattle.

In 11 seasons with Seattle, Moyer has a record of 145-87 with a 3.97 ERA. Twice won 20 games during that stretch. 20 complete games with 6 shutouts.

For comparison sake, Roy Oswalt in his 10+ year career now sits with a career record of 141-78 with a 3.23 ERA. Twice won 20 games during that stretch. 18 complete games and 6 shutouts.

I don't think anybody here would argue that Oswalt isn't a staff ace, yet would argue all day long that Moyer with Seattle wasn't a staff ace but rather just a wily vet with sneaky skills.

The man has won 200+ games after his 33rd birthday. It goes beyond anything we've ever seen. He did it without a dominant pitch. Without a 95 MPH heater. Without striking out a man per inning. He just gutted through on hard work and never quit even when the odds were stacked against him. He never stopped working on becoming a better pitcher.

It's sad that this could be the most amazing story in baseball and a lot of people are doubting that. At an age where most pitchers start slowing down considerably, Moyer accelerated to levels he had never reached prior to that.

Had he played his first 10 years in the MLB as well as he played those 11 in Seattle, we'd be talking about the potential to reach 400 wins right now.

Sucking for a decade should hurt your resume.

I guess the value in redemption stories are kind of lost on the crowd around here. I think penalizing a guy for taking his lumps on the way to learning how to be a dominant pitcher without dominant stuff is a bit wonky.

I suppose a better question would be ..... would people still find lots of fault with Jamie Moyer had he made his MLB debut at 33 and did what he has done or did his image until his stint with Seattle sour what he did with them and after them?