BASEBALL RULE: Lost Game because of a play umps blew.

[Hendersonfan]

Run shouldn't count. A force out would end inning/game. Already 1 out, batter flies to pitcher for 2nd out and force at first (runner not tagged) is 3rd out. End of inning. It's the same thing as a 6-4-3 double play with 1 out.

If the runner from 1st had tagged and got in a rundown, runner from 3rd crosses plate, then runner from 1st is tagged out; the run would count.

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[ccouch (Chad)]

You guys need to quit referring to the play at first as a "force out". It isn't a force-out.

The run very clearly counts.

 

[Card Magnet]

The ump got it right. It really sucks on your end, but it is correct. I've had to make the same call a few times over the years myself.

There are four things that stop a run from scoring because of a third out :

- The batter is the THIRD out. (He was the second out.)
- The third out is made while the batter-runner is still in play and before he reaches first safely. (The third out came after the batter was himself out.)
- The third out is a force out. (A running failing to tag and being thrown out is NOT a force out. It's an appeal which is known as a "time play", and is not considered a force out.)
- The runner to home does not touch the plate before the third out. (looks like he beat the third out)

Technically there is a fifth scenario, but it would involve the runner missing bases, which isn't an issue here.

 

[UMich92]

The ump got it right. It really sucks on your end, but it is correct. I've had to make the same call a few times over the years myself.

There are four things that stop a run from scoring because of a third out :

- The batter is the THIRD out. (He was the second out.)
- The third out is made while the batter-runner is still in play and before he reaches first safely. (The third out came after the batter was himself out.)
- The third out is a force out. (A running failing to tag and being thrown out is NOT a force out. It's an appeal which is known as a "time play", and is not considered a force out.)
- The runner to home does not touch the plate before the third out. (looks like he beat the third out)

Technically there is a fifth scenario, but it would involve the runner missing bases, which isn't an issue here.

Thanks for the summary.

 

[A_Pharis]

The third out rule doesn't apply to first base. The hitter has to touch 1B for the run to score. Meaning even say you have 1st and 3rd, 1 out and the hitter grounds to the 2B. If the runner from 3B takes off and scores before the 3rd out, it doesn't count if they turn the DP since the hitter is out before he reaches safely, regardless of the runner.

The rule, specifically 4.09a1:
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2013/official_baseball_rules.pdf

4.09
HOW A TEAM SCORES.
(a) One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first,
second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning.
EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a
play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first
base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is
declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases.

What you bolded states if the batter is the third out. In this situation - he's not. The 3rd out is the runner on first. The "batter-runner" in the rule you quoted refers solely to the batter becoming an active baserunner towards first.

 

[thejackaryman8]

The ump got it right. It really sucks on your end, but it is correct. I've had to make the same call a few times over the years myself.

There are four things that stop a run from scoring because of a third out :

- The batter is the THIRD out. (He was the second out.)
- The third out is made while the batter-runner is still in play and before he reaches first safely. (The third out came after the batter was himself out.)
- The third out is a force out. (A running failing to tag and being thrown out is NOT a force out. It's an appeal which is known as a "time play", and is not considered a force out.)
- The runner to home does not touch the plate before the third out. (looks like he beat the third out)

Technically there is a fifth scenario, but it would involve the runner missing bases, which isn't an issue here.

I like this. Great info and I guess I would have always thought it were a force out.

 

[Hendersonfan]

How is it not a force? Runner has to get back to bag, not be tagged out. An appeal would be needed if he got to second and umpire thought he tagged.So how was infield fly not called? More than one runner and less than two outs?

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[thejackaryman8]

How is it not a force? Runner has to get back to bag, not be tagged out. An appeal would be needed if he got to second and umpire thought he tagged.So how was infield fly not called? More than one runner and less than two outs?

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Why would infield fly be called? There's not a runner on second....

 

[Hallsgator]

Runners on first and third, fly ball to the pitcher, without tagging the runner on first runs to second, the fly ball is caught, the runner on third tags, the fielder who caught the ball throws it to first, however the runner crosses the plate before the force out at first,does the run count?

Give me your opinions and I will let you know the outcome.

run counts. exact same situation happened in a college game last year i was at and the conference director of umpires said it was the correct ruling.

 

[Hallsgator]

found the play by play. same ruling except the out here took place at 2B


[TABLE="width: 90%"]
[TR="bgcolor: #87cefa"]
[TD]Bowling Green 6th - Kubuski,A singled through the right side. Walker,L flied out to rf. Lancaster,P singled; Kubuski,A advanced to second. Rait,J singled to left field; Lancaster,P advanced to second; Kubuski,A advanced to third. Howard,B flied out to rf, SAC, RBI; Lancaster,P out at second rf to 2b, runner left early; Kubuski,A scored. 1 run, 3 hits, 0 errors, 1 LOB.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[MansGame]

The game starts over, because someone hit the reset button.

 

[LazerShow15]

The ump got it right. It really sucks on your end, but it is correct. I've had to make the same call a few times over the years myself.

There are four things that stop a run from scoring because of a third out :

- The batter is the THIRD out. (He was the second out.)
- The third out is made while the batter-runner is still in play and before he reaches first safely. (The third out came after the batter was himself out.)
- The third out is a force out. (A running failing to tag and being thrown out is NOT a force out. It's an appeal which is known as a "time play", and is not considered a force out.)
- The runner to home does not touch the plate before the third out. (looks like he beat the third out)

Technically there is a fifth scenario, but it would involve the runner missing bases, which isn't an issue here.

So run counts or not in my teams situation

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[Card Magnet]

How is it not a force? Runner has to get back to bag, not be tagged out. An appeal would be needed if he got to second and umpire thought he tagged.So how was infield fly not called? More than one runner and less than two outs?

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It's not a force out since the batter flied out. When a fly ball is caught, it negates all would-be cases of force outs. If a runner could choose to stay on his base instead of advancing, then there is no force out scenario.

--------------------------

An appeal is any play made by the fielding team to point out to the umpire any uncalled infraction. That just means that an infraction occurs but it's not one that is specifically called out by the umpire. It could be an infraction that has no call made (like when runners do not tag up) or because the umpire missed the infraction. No call made just means the umpire makes no announcement or signal like he would an our or foul ball.

Sometimes a manager or player need to explain to the umpire what the appeal is, but not in this case. Doubling up and runners missing a base are two of the most common appeals, and they usually don't require any verbal explanation of the appeal being made.

Pointing out a rule and how it applies to the situation is an appeal. What you're saying isn't an appeal. The umpire saying the runner did tag up is a judgment call. Appeals cannot be made on judgement calls. Even if a manager asks for another umpire to chime in on a judgment call, it's not actually an appeal (though people often call it that).

In the case of doubling up, failing to do so is an uncalled infraction, meaning that although the runner failed to do so, the umpire does not make any call (like how he would yell "foul" or "out") and allows the runner and play to continue. The defense then makes the appeal by throwing the ball to the base.

In this case, the umpire is to assume that's done as an appeal for the running not doubling up and then calls the runner safe/out based on his judgment on if the runner did tag up. Anything that runner may have done after second base is then nullified.

--------------------------

There is no infield fly because 2nd base is unoccupied. Both cases of the infield fly rule call for a runner to be on second. It's less than two outs with at least two runners in force out position.

 

[Card Magnet]

So run counts or not in my teams situation

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The run counts.

 

[toadfan106]

This should end this discussion - the exact scenario is listed in the MLB rule book, rule 2.0:

Rule 2.00 (Force Play) Comment: Confusion regarding this play is removed by remembering
that frequently the “force” situation is removed during the play.

Example: Not a force out. One out. Runner on first and third. Batter flies out. Two out.
Runner on third tags up and scores. Runner on first tries to retouch before throw from fielder reaches
first baseman, but does not get back in time and is out. Three outs. If, in umpire’s judgment, the runner
from third touched home before the ball was held at first base, the run counts.

 

[Pine Tar]

Here is what really happens. Topps fleeces MLB into letting them be the sole producers of MLB licensed cards for the next 20 years.

Then Leaf goes out and buys said Topps cards and has then slabbed by Becket and inserts them into a product called "The best Purchased Card(s) of <insert year here> and revolutionizes the secondary card market.

Run scores

 

[IUjapander]

The game is halted so the crowd can unmercifully taunt any pitcher who can't lob a caught infield fly over to first base in the time it would take a tagging runner on 3rd base to sprint all the way home. What did he do, rainbow a high pop-up over to the first sacker? I mean, infield fly to the pitcher is a pretty short throw to first..

This was my first thought as well. What was the pitcher doing to take so long?

 

[Hallsgator]

i'm confused though, why did the the runner on 3rd tag on a fly ball to the pitcher and why did the pitcher not throw home?