Buying items listed on ebay off ebay?

[chris19978]

Ok your talking about the people who feel listing on ebay should end in a sale through ebay or they should get a percentage of the sale no matter if it sold on or off ebay. It will be an interesting read but I am done with my comments on this topic.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Freedom Card Board mobile app

 

[mrdallas]

Chris I was simply defending "our" side from the people who question our ethics/moral right from wrong and say they dont understand how we cant see we are "stealing". Nobody will answer my question because obviously no is above "taking advantage" of so called rules here. The silence is deafening! Guess we are all on the same side of the fence in a wierd way. Good discussion all. I cant believe not one person commented but you!

Enjoy your vacation.

 

[Dilferules]

We aren't going to agree on what? That it's stupid and probably does cost them money? Or that it really is a separate fee involved in the sale of the item, not the finding of a buyer? It's one or the other(or both in my opinion).

The rest of my post is more like a "money talks..." sort of statement. It seems to be pretty consistent with our current economic model these days. That's none of my doing sir and I am certainly not trying to facilitate it either. It's how people trying to make money think.

I'm arguing that any and all fees ebay charges are related to finding a buyer for your card, because that's really all they do of true value. You are very insistent on those two fees being for two different services/activities and no matter how I describe it you're going back to the same thing. So obviously our minds are not going to meet on the subject.

I'll agree that since the beginning of money, people have been doing whatever they can (including things a lot worse than ebay fee avoidance) to maximize their revenue. That's the obvious explanation of the motivation of sellers avoiding fees.

But can you steal something that was never going to exist?

I...I'm just not following you at all. The off-ebay sales were going to exist because they actually happened. The guy just listing with a high BIN and not getting any offers he likes isn't doing anything wrong, really. He paid ebay a listing fee, no buyer was found, so no FVF was paid. I think you are going to need to rephrase your question and explain it a lot better for anybody to understand what you're trying to get at.

The whole topic was about people calling people ending items thieves by basically stealing. I for one am done with the topic as no one will change anyones mind and I am going to enjoy my vacation I am on right now.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Freedom Card Board mobile app

Dude you're wasting time arguing with me while you're on vacation? It's been a spirited discussion and I hope there are no hard feelings from anybody because there aren't on my side. I hope you have a fun vacation!

Chris I was simply defending "our" side from the people who question our ethics/moral right from wrong and say they dont understand how we cant see we are "stealing". Nobody will answer my question because obviously no is above "taking advantage" of so called rules here. The silence is deafening! Guess we are all on the same side of the fence in a wierd way. Good discussion all. I cant believe not one person commented but you!

Enjoy your vacation.

LOL I was commuting home, eating dinner, and watching TV, not avoiding your question. People nowadays need such immediate answers! Patience. There were a couple of pretty important questions I asked a couple pages back that the person I addressed (not you) never bothered to answer but I didn't gloat about it.

I live in Washington state and our sales tax laws have an exemption for "casual and isolated sales of property or service, unless made by a person who is engaged in a business activity". Selling cards or any other items is definitely not a business activity for me, and card selling is EXTREMELY casual and isolated in my case. I average less than 10 sales of cards per year (usually far less) totalling maybe $200-300 in a very good year where I happen to pull a couple of hot cards from boxes.

As far as use tax, I had never heard of it...looks like I'm a criminal along with everybody else in the state! Though according to some people in this thread I didn't actually steal since the state never enforces the use tax . I fail to see what bearing that has on whether or not fee avoidance is stealing, though. If you think this is an "I'm so high and mighty all you terrible rascals!" thread you have missed the point so completely it's ridiculous. My argument is about whether or not one specific act is stealing, not calling people names. I'm not saying I'm better than you. Everybody has done things they aren't proud of.

 

[mrdallas]

Dilfer, i haven't missed the point. I just find it hypocritical that people are so adamant and constantly saying they cant' understand how we can't see we are "stealing" and in more than one post have called upon morals and ethics into the equation. That is why I bring up the tax argument. How can people be so offended that we don't see it as stealing yet they themselves are no better? Every day you buy or sell on eBay, (unless someone pays tax on the transaction) you as well are "stealing". You can't have it both ways. Upset that people can't see that they are "stealing" from eBay, yet doing the same thing elsewhere. It is a contradiction by itself.

And in simple terms "use" tax is the same as sales tax. Use tax should be paid by the consumer if a seller neglects to charge a sales tax. (a bit more complex than that but not much). Your exemption may hold true for you as a seller because you "claim" to be a casual seller; however, the buyer then must pay the tax when they buy from you. In reverse, if you bought something on eBay as a buyer but didn't get charged a sales tax, then you are responsible for the "use" tax. No exemptions given here. Someone by law 'should" pay the tax. Do they. Hell no.

I don't want to get into a pissing match here as I am not trying to make this personal as it isn't. But, it feels like a case of do as I say not as I do. Unless you are just being devil advocate on this subject of avoiding fees/charges/tax as they all are the same principle

 

[Kennesawsportscards]

Any person on here who says it is stealing. Serious question? Do you charge tax on the cards that you sell on eBay? No. Then you are stealing from the government and that is breaking the law. Unless you pay the tax at the end of the year for your cutomers. Just sayin__
And techically speaking. That is illegal

Let me add. If you are buying on eBay and didn't get charged a tax when you bought and dont pay a use tax at the end of the year. Then u are stealing...

Using your terminology, technically it is and yes I do.

 

[Kennesawsportscards]

Dilfer, i haven't missed the point. I just find it hypocritical that people are so adamant and constantly saying they cant' understand how we can't see we are "stealing" and in more than one post have called upon morals and ethics into the equation. That is why I bring up the tax argument. How can people be so offended that we don't see it as stealing yet they themselves are no better? Every day you buy or sell on eBay, (unless someone pays tax on the transaction) you as well are "stealing". You can't have it both ways. Upset that people can't see that they are "stealing" from eBay, yet doing the same thing elsewhere. It is a contradiction by itself.

And in simple terms "use" tax is the same as sales tax. Use tax should be paid by the consumer if a seller neglects to charge a sales tax. (a bit more complex than that but not much). Your exemption may hold true for you as a seller because you "claim" to be a casual seller; however, the buyer then must pay the tax when they buy from you. In reverse, if you bought something on eBay as a buyer but didn't get charged a sales tax, then you are responsible for the "use" tax. No exemptions given here. Someone by law 'should" pay the tax. Do they. Hell no.

I don't want to get into a pissing match here as I am not trying to make this personal as it isn't. But, it feels like a case of do as I say not as I do. Unless you are just being devil advocate on this subject of avoiding fees/charges/tax as they all are the same principle

Since this is directed at me....There is only judgement on your part when you assume that taxes are not being paid. And for that you assume incorrectly.

 

[sportscardtheory]

Since this is directed at me....There is only judgement on your part when you assume that taxes are not being paid. And for that you assume incorrectly.

Sure is easy to say.

 

[mrdallas]

Since this is directed at me....There is only judgement on your part when you assume that taxes are not being paid. And for that you assume incorrectly.

The above statement was not only directed at you as you are not the only person on this thread who has such a strong opinion. If you have paid tax on every purchase and sale ever done on eBay then you have every right feel as strongly as you do. Heck, everyone has their right to an opinion even if they don't pay taxes, albeit hypocritical if they don't.

As for being judgmental, it doesn't take much to find out if people are charging tax on items they are selling on eBay

 

[mrdallas]

Sure is easy to say.

(edited)
sorry sports, I should have reread the thread . You are in my corner HAHA. And yes it is easy to say.

 

[sportscardtheory]

(edited)
sorry sports, I should have reread the thread . You are in my corner HAHA. And yes it is easy to say.

Yeah, unless he's a business owner, I don't believe him for a second. 99.999% of non-business-owning ebay sellers don't claim ebay sales to the government and that is more along the lines of stealing than breaking a website's TOS.

 

[mrdallas]

Yeah, unless he's a business owner, I don't believe him for a second. 99.999% of non-business-owning ebay sellers don't claim ebay sales to the government and that is more along the lines of stealing than breaking a website's TOS.

Checking whether a tax is being charged isn't a hard theory to test. And even business owners (not calling out the OP this is a blanket statement) sometime choose not to charge a sales tax when selling through the Internet. Just a reality.

 

[RStadlerASU22]

Yeah, unless he's a business owner, I don't believe him for a second. 99.999% of non-business-owning ebay sellers don't claim ebay sales to the government and that is more along the lines of stealing than breaking a website's TOS.

That is not stealing either... Only if you were charging tax and not filing, this stealing the tax revenue. Stealing may have tweaks to the definition but it really is really taking something that isn't yours. These shill , FVF , tax things don't really fit the "stealing" definition IMO. Misused maybe , not stealing.

Ryan

 

[Dilferules]

Dilfer, i haven't missed the point. I just find it hypocritical that people are so adamant and constantly saying they cant' understand how we can't see we are "stealing" and in more than one post have called upon morals and ethics into the equation. That is why I bring up the tax argument. How can people be so offended that we don't see it as stealing yet they themselves are no better? Every day you buy or sell on eBay, (unless someone pays tax on the transaction) you as well are "stealing". You can't have it both ways. Upset that people can't see that they are "stealing" from eBay, yet doing the same thing elsewhere. It is a contradiction by itself.

And in simple terms "use" tax is the same as sales tax. Use tax should be paid by the consumer if a seller neglects to charge a sales tax. (a bit more complex than that but not much). Your exemption may hold true for you as a seller because you "claim" to be a casual seller; however, the buyer then must pay the tax when they buy from you. In reverse, if you bought something on eBay as a buyer but didn't get charged a sales tax, then you are responsible for the "use" tax. No exemptions given here. Someone by law 'should" pay the tax. Do they. Hell no.

I don't want to get into a pissing match here as I am not trying to make this personal as it isn't. But, it feels like a case of do as I say not as I do. Unless you are just being devil advocate on this subject of avoiding fees/charges/tax as they all are the same principle

It's everybody else that is bringing morals and ethics into the conversation, either because they are taking what I say as a moral attack or because they want to argue that not paying ebay isn't stealing based on some type of moral grounds. I've tried to keep it to the topic and am not trying to pass moral judgement but simply stating that I believe the practice we have discussed at length here is stealing because the seller is not paying ebay money they have earned. In fact look at this quote from my very first post on this thread:

That's a point I made late in the other thread so I'll re-make it here for anybody that didn't read it. I have more of an issue with people who for some reason think this is not ripping off/stealing from ebay, than with people who just own up to it and say they know it's wrong but they don't care because they got their money so screw ebay. Don't try to make excuses or delude yourself, own up to it.

And what did I do when you brought up use tax (or earlier in the thread [or was that the original thread, there have been so many posts I've lost track] when somebody brought up paypal gift): I owned up that I knew what I was doing was stealing and I did it anyway. So I'm not sure how this invalidates my argument that fee avoidance is stealing. Is somebody unable to argue that drinking and driving is a crime if they themselves drive 5 mph over the speed limit? Is somebody unable to argue that running up to somebody on the sidewalk and punching them in the face is a crime if they themselves occasionally jaywalk? Saying that somebody is unable to call something stealing because they have done something else wrong in their life is some Blowout boards stuff, come on FCB is better than that.

If your argument is that I shouldn't act high and mighty because I've stolen, well then congratulations you're right, but my point has never been to act high and mighty and impart moral judgement on board members that disagree with me. I'm sorry if you took it that way, and I realize that you're not the only one because some people have clearly taken my position as a personal attack even though I have tried to stay on the topic of arguing that a particular act is stealing. However, I'm not going to let the fact that some people are taking it as a moral attack stop me from arguing my point. If you couldn't tell, I'm kind of stubborn that way . All I can do is continue to try to keep it on target.

Heck, everyone has their right to an opinion even if they don't pay taxes, albeit hypocritical if they don't.

Your line of reasoning from the previous post commenting on my hypocrisy was "Upset that people can't see that they are "stealing" from eBay, yet doing the same thing elsewhere. It is a contradiction by itself." I have freely admitted that by not paying use tax I am stealing (and I thought I made that clear in the last post) so I fail to see how being upset that people can't see they are stealing from ebay makes me a hypocrite. I'd be a hypocrite if I said nonpayment of use tax WASN'T stealing, or if I said I was better than you. Neither of which I have done.

 

[sportscardtheory]

That is not stealing either... Only if you were charging tax and not filing, this stealing the tax revenue. Stealing may have tweaks to the definition but it really is really taking something that isn't yours. These shill , FVF , tax things don't really fit the "stealing" definition IMO. Misused maybe , not stealing.

Ryan

I don't think you know what you are talking about. Not charging a tax that you are supposed to charge is "stealing" from the government. Not that I care if people do this, I don't. But to call breaking a site's TOS stealing while believing that not claiming taxes on ebay sales isn't, is... well, pretty ignorant.

 

[mrdallas]

It's everybody else that is bringing morals and ethics into the conversation, either because they are taking what I say as a moral attack or because they want to argue that not paying ebay isn't stealing based on some type of moral grounds. I've tried to keep it to the topic and am not trying to pass moral judgement but simply stating that I believe the practice we have discussed at length here is stealing because the seller is not paying ebay money they have earned. In fact look at this quote from my very first post on this thread:



And what did I do when you brought up use tax (or earlier in the thread [or was that the original thread, there have been so many posts I've lost track] when somebody brought up paypal gift): I owned up that I knew what I was doing was stealing and I did it anyway. So I'm not sure how this invalidates my argument that fee avoidance is stealing. Is somebody unable to argue that drinking and driving is a crime if they themselves drive 5 mph over the speed limit? Is somebody unable to argue that running up to somebody on the sidewalk and punching them in the face is a crime if they themselves occasionally jaywalk? Saying that somebody is unable to call something stealing because they have done something else wrong in their life is some Blowout boards stuff, come on FCB is better than that.

If your argument is that I shouldn't act high and mighty because I've stolen, well then congratulations you're right, but my point has never been to act high and mighty and impart moral judgement on board members that disagree with me. I'm sorry if you took it that way, and I realize that you're not the only one because some people have clearly taken my position as a personal attack even though I have tried to stay on the topic of arguing that a particular act is stealing. However, I'm not going to let the fact that some people are taking it as a moral attack stop me from arguing my point. If you couldn't tell, I'm kind of stubborn that way . All I can do is continue to try to keep it on target.



Your line of reasoning from the previous post commenting on my hypocrisy was "Upset that people can't see that they are "stealing" from eBay, yet doing the same thing elsewhere. It is a contradiction by itself." I have freely admitted that by not paying use tax I am stealing (and I thought I made that clear in the last post) so I fail to see how being upset that people can't see they are stealing from ebay makes me a hypocrite. I'd be a hypocrite if I said nonpayment of use tax WASN'T stealing, or if I said I was better than you. Neither of which I have done.

You have tried to stay on target ghost rider I am not disputing that. Where I see the hypocrisy.. It is that it comes across in your posts that you are so against doing it because it is stealing. Not just that you want us to agree that it is stealing but that you are seriously against it. So I am pointing out that now by your own admission do some sort of skirting yourself. I am asking how you can play both sides of the fence. That is my angle in a nutshell. Make sense?

As for the way this thread has gone and being like BO, I am actually rather impressed people have been as cordial as they have. As heated of a discussion as this has gone, it has pretty much been a discussion/debate and although testy at times, no nukes have been tossed, just some friendly fire

 

[mrdallas]

I don't think you know what you are talking about. Not charging a tax that you are supposed to charge is "stealing" from the government. Not that I care if people do this, I don't. But to call breaking a site's TOS stealing while believing that not claiming taxes on ebay sales isn't, is... well, pretty ignorant.

I believe Ryan feels that neither are stealing. At least that is how I read his statement

 

[Dilferules]

But to call breaking a site's TOS stealing while believing that not claiming taxes on ebay sales isn't, is... well, pretty ignorant.

Please point out where somebody has led you to think that they believe this. I've been very clear on it and have not seen anybody claiming that one is stealing while the other is not.

You have tried to stay on target ghost rider I am not disputing that. Where I see the hypocrisy.. It is that it comes across in your posts that you are so against doing it because it is stealing. Not just that you want us to agree that it is stealing but that you are seriously against it. So I am pointing out that you and now by your own admission do some sort of skirting yourself. I am asking how you can play both sides of the fence. That is my angle in a nutshell. Make sense?

As for the way this thread has gone and being like BO, I am actually rather impressed people have been as cordial as they have. As heated of a discussion as this has gone, it has pretty much been a discussion/debate and although testy at times, no nukes have been tossed, just some friendly fire

Yeah I got annoyed and lost my temper once, and made a post that was more rude than I should have, but other than that I feel like people have been mostly decent and not so much about doing the classic "flip the tables to attack the other person" game like that other place.

Regarding the hypocrisy, okay I see the angle you're coming at it from now. I am against doing things that I consider to be stealing and I do understand that I probably haven't been super impartial about that even though I've tried to just make the argument that a particular act was stealing. I do feel guilty for the few times I've paid with paypal gift and I try to avoid it, but really I have no excuses there, I allowed myself to do it. I don't exactly feel guilty or bad about not paying use tax, so if you feel that makes me a hypocrite for being against avoiding ebay fees I'm not going to argue with you. It still does nothing to affect whether or not avoiding ebay fees is stealing, which is the main topic of the thread.

 

[Dilferules]

I believe Ryan feels that neither are stealing. At least that is how I read his statement

He specifically says in his last post that he doesn't consider the FVF stuff to be "stealing", though.

EDIT: Whatever post I was quoting seems to have been deleted and the board changed my quote to a totally different thing, so now it appears to make no sense. Weird.

 

[mrdallas]

He specifically says in his last post that he doesn't consider the FVF stuff to be "stealing", though.

Correct, According to his last statement he feels that that none of it is stealing just misused. These shill , FVF , tax things don't really fit the "stealing" definition IMO. Misused maybe , not stealing

 

[Dilferules]

Correct, According to his last statement he feels that that none of it is stealing just misused. These shill , FVF , tax things don't really fit the "stealing" definition IMO. Misused maybe , not stealing

I don't even know what happened to my post, I thought I was quoting sportscardtheory saying that he felt Ryan believed that not paying FVF was stealing. Did a post get deleted and it caused my quote to change to your post, or is my brain just melting? Ugh.