Cards that are a hair small

[predatorkj]

Look...realistically you can't be returning every card that is 1/16th of an inch off. Trust me when I say that the cuts can be off. You are just going to start getting blocked from bidding on people's auctions.

I hate trimmers and I really would honestly rather have a card that is in a tad worse condition than for someone to trim it. I'd still pay good money for a key rookie card. I wish people would just leave the damn things alone. But like I have said before...the grading services actually made this practice a hell of a lot more lucrative. I'd honestly like to now what to look for when it comes to noticing trimming. I'd be cool if my entire collection couldn't grade higher than a 7 as long as I knew the cards hadn't been screwed with.

To this point I've returned pretty much every card that's 1/16 of an inch off with no problems (over the years it may have been 10 cards, so figure one every six months or so, which is not all that many.)

Honestly I'd be happy to ignore the issue and sell them as is with no mention, so if this is the overwhelming public opinion, it makes my life easier. What happens when someone submits that card to BGS and it gets rejected?


(It does seem that your second statement would mean that you'd be thrilled that some people are making sure that the they sell are not smaller.)

Nah...I don't mean to undermine your conscience. I am just saying...cards get miscut. A lot. That is part of my frustration. All I want to do is buy my damn singles and not have to worry about what some a-hole did to try to earn an extra buck. As it stands...its pretty hard to determine what has and hasn't been trimmed. As for someone sending in a card they purchased from you and having it returned as ungradeable...I would say that is not on your shoulders brother. All you can do is do your best job at catching stuff. If you really think something is amiss then call it how you see it.

But I know for a fact that my local card shop buys collections in bulk. I also happen to know damn good and well he doesn't check every single card out either. There isn't enough time in the day. But I always keep on his ass about doing his best. The sad part is...I am never sure if he would sit there and chunk a card if he thought it was trimmed. I don't think he is an expert enough. Hell who knows. He may very well know. I can't say. I will not say one way or the other. But I can't fault the guy for not measuring every key card he has. He really can't do it. But I would not be able to sit there and say that it was completely his fault. Just like its not yours either. Not unless you are the one doing it.

Its a very very tricky subject. All you can do is do your best to make sure you are not trying to rip someone else off. After that...let the blocks fall where they may.

 

[RiceLynnEvans75]

If this is an ethics question you should go with your gut.

If your gut is to return a smaller-than-normal card then you should measure and send back any card not normal size.

You return cards that are 1/16th off? Jesus. I'd lose my brain if you bought a card and returned it. When someone returns something, they still have to pay the original shipping or no?

I would be surprised if most trim jobs are more than 1/16 of an inch, and again would be surprised if BGS did not reject a card that was 1/16 of an inch small. Trimming is a reality, and similar to steroids it is an issue that as long as people are hush-hush about, most people are willing to ignore. That said, if a card is known to be trimmed it sells for significantly less and therefore if I would believe a card is trimmed I would not consider selling it.

The challenge of course stems from the fact that companies sometimes cut the cards a bit small...

Do you grade your cards after purchase? For me, I couldn't care less. As long as I don't know that the card is trimmed, ie. trimmed the card myself, I don't have to worry about it.

If someone returned a pack-pulled card and said that it was trimmed, I'd be very angry. eBay would obviously side with the buyer - ugh - even though he has no physical proof that the card was trimmed.

On the other side of that, unless you filmed it, there is no proof that you pulled it from a pack like that. Then again, I've heard a story somewhere of people resealing packs and then filming a "break". (I don't remember when/where I heard that). Technically, nobody can prove that some cards didn't come from someone's grandparents attic either but thankfully we all, well maybe not all, have common sense.

Personally, I can't stand when someone says pack pulled anyway. Unless it was a card that had been redeemed, the solid majority of cards are pack pulled so it's just stating the obvious. But that's for another time and place.....

 

[RiceLynnEvans75]

I'm primarily a vintage guy so this is always something I consider when making a purchase. Usually, I purchase them already graded but that's not 100% foolproof either and I revert back to my original stance of "buy the card and not the label".

I know some cards are cut short when made but just for my own eye appeal, I don't like them as they do look funny and I can spot them most of the time. Trimming is always in the back of my mind but doesn't come to the forefront unless it's a certain type of card/player or it just looks too good to be true.

 

[morgoth]

Modern is actually easier to trim than vintage. Laser cutters and such make much cleaner edges like factory cuts and its very hard to tell them apart. Smart trimmers go for cards cut slightly larger than factory but being greedy we have all seen the Tom Brady sp rc missing parf of his foot.

With the slew of law suits popping up recently and FBI investigations PSA and BGS are becoming much more sensitive to trimming and are starting to reject cards more often. Also there is a big lawsuit from a bunch of collectors against a seller, Scott Susor, whom was basically caught trimming red handed, mostly low pop set registry cards. Its amazing nobody has sued Burdick yet.

 

[Topnotchsy]

Look...realistically you can't be returning every card that is 1/16th of an inch off. Trust me when I say that the cuts can be off. You are just going to start getting blocked from bidding on people's auctions.

I hate trimmers and I really would honestly rather have a card that is in a tad worse condition than for someone to trim it. I'd still pay good money for a key rookie card. I wish people would just leave the damn things alone. But like I have said before...the grading services actually made this practice a hell of a lot more lucrative. I'd honestly like to now what to look for when it comes to noticing trimming. I'd be cool if my entire collection couldn't grade higher than a 7 as long as I knew the cards hadn't been screwed with.

To this point I've returned pretty much every card that's 1/16 of an inch off with no problems (over the years it may have been 10 cards, so figure one every six months or so, which is not all that many.)

Honestly I'd be happy to ignore the issue and sell them as is with no mention, so if this is the overwhelming public opinion, it makes my life easier. What happens when someone submits that card to BGS and it gets rejected?


(It does seem that your second statement would mean that you'd be thrilled that some people are making sure that the they sell are not smaller.)

Nah...I don't mean to undermine your conscience. I am just saying...cards get miscut. A lot. That is part of my frustration. All I want to do is buy my damn singles and not have to worry about what some a-hole did to try to earn an extra buck. As it stands...its pretty hard to determine what has and hasn't been trimmed. As for someone sending in a card they purchased from you and having it returned as ungradeable...I would say that is not on your shoulders brother. All you can do is do your best job at catching stuff. If you really think something is amiss then call it how you see it.

But I know for a fact that my local card shop buys collections in bulk. I also happen to know damn good and well he doesn't check every single card out either. There isn't enough time in the day. But I always keep on his ass about doing his best. The sad part is...I am never sure if he would sit there and chunk a card if he thought it was trimmed. I don't think he is an expert enough. Hell who knows. He may very well know. I can't say. I will not say one way or the other. But I can't fault the guy for not measuring every key card he has. He really can't do it. But I would not be able to sit there and say that it was completely his fault. Just like its not yours either. Not unless you are the one doing it.

Its a very very tricky subject. All you can do is do your best to make sure you are not trying to rip someone else off. After that...let the blocks fall where they may.

I wonder if the bolded statement is the prevailing opinion. Anyone else have an opinion on that? (And anyone actually have it happen?)

 

[Topnotchsy]

^

 

[RiceLynnEvans75]

Look...realistically you can't be returning every card that is 1/16th of an inch off. Trust me when I say that the cuts can be off. You are just going to start getting blocked from bidding on people's auctions.

I hate trimmers and I really would honestly rather have a card that is in a tad worse condition than for someone to trim it. I'd still pay good money for a key rookie card. I wish people would just leave the damn things alone. But like I have said before...the grading services actually made this practice a hell of a lot more lucrative. I'd honestly like to now what to look for when it comes to noticing trimming. I'd be cool if my entire collection couldn't grade higher than a 7 as long as I knew the cards hadn't been screwed with.

To this point I've returned pretty much every card that's 1/16 of an inch off with no problems (over the years it may have been 10 cards, so figure one every six months or so, which is not all that many.)

Honestly I'd be happy to ignore the issue and sell them as is with no mention, so if this is the overwhelming public opinion, it makes my life easier. What happens when someone submits that card to BGS and it gets rejected?


(It does seem that your second statement would mean that you'd be thrilled that some people are making sure that the they sell are not smaller.)

Nah...I don't mean to undermine your conscience. I am just saying...cards get miscut. A lot. That is part of my frustration. All I want to do is buy my damn singles and not have to worry about what some a-hole did to try to earn an extra buck. As it stands...its pretty hard to determine what has and hasn't been trimmed. As for someone sending in a card they purchased from you and having it returned as ungradeable...I would say that is not on your shoulders brother. All you can do is do your best job at catching stuff. If you really think something is amiss then call it how you see it.

But I know for a fact that my local card shop buys collections in bulk. I also happen to know damn good and well he doesn't check every single card out either. There isn't enough time in the day. But I always keep on his ass about doing his best. The sad part is...I am never sure if he would sit there and chunk a card if he thought it was trimmed. I don't think he is an expert enough. Hell who knows. He may very well know. I can't say. I will not say one way or the other. But I can't fault the guy for not measuring every key card he has. He really can't do it. But I would not be able to sit there and say that it was completely his fault. Just like its not yours either. Not unless you are the one doing it.

Its a very very tricky subject. All you can do is do your best to make sure you are not trying to rip someone else off. After that...let the blocks fall where they may.

I wonder if the bolded statement is the prevailing opinion. Anyone else have an opinion on that? (And anyone actually have it happen?)

I have actually heard of this on two occasions on another board. In one instance, since both people knew each other well, the original person just swapped the cards back with no hard feelings as the original person did not know about it. On the second instance, holy hell flooded the board because the original owner would not accept the card back. For anybody actually not involved in the matter, it's a tough decision to say who is right or wrong.

In regards to actual graders, I've heard plenty of stories of people receiving a card back as trimmed/altered/etc, send it back in and it comes back graded.

 

[miguelcabrera]

people trim cards to get a better grade
a lot of these are rejected by bgs as evidence of trimming
however people trim and continue to trim because some cards make it through the companies
so its not just raw cards that are trimmed
if companies could detect every trimmed card then people would stop trimming because whats the point

 

[Topnotchsy]

I have actually heard of this on two occasions on another board. In one instance, since both people knew each other well, the original person just swapped the cards back with no hard feelings as the original person did not know about it. On the second instance, holy hell flooded the board because the original owner would not accept the card back. For anybody actually not involved in the matter, it's a tough decision to say who is right or wrong.

In regards to actual graders, I've heard plenty of stories of people receiving a card back as trimmed/altered/etc, send it back in and it comes back graded.

I agree with this (bold.)

people trim cards to get a better grade
a lot of these are rejected by bgs as evidence of trimming
however people trim and continue to trim because some cards make it through the companies
so its not just raw cards that are trimmed
if companies could detect every trimmed card then people would stop trimming because whats the point

This is true, but I don't imagine anyone consider it the job of the seller to offer an opinion on trimming if a company graded the card, for a couple of reasons:

1. Even a card that is small may not have been trimmed.
2. The holder makes it more difficult to tell as you can not size it up against another card.

If the card was one like the 2001 Fleer Legacy Auto even graded I would never consider selling it. (Regarding cards where rumors have floated around like the 2001 SPx and Bowman Chrome, I'm unsure.)

 

[smapdi]

1/16" is a pretty big difference. Get a ruler out and see what that is. It's the sort of thing where you'd automatically notice a border being short.

But it's pretty common to see 1/32" or so variation. Next time you open a box, stack up all the cards and there's bound to be 1 or 2 that stick up above the rest, or dip below them.

 

[Topnotchsy]

1/16" is a pretty big difference. Get a ruler out and see what that is. It's the sort of thing where you'd automatically notice a border being short.

But it's pretty common to see 1/32" or so variation. Next time you open a box, stack up all the cards and there's bound to be 1 or 2 that stick up above the rest, or dip below them.

Laid on another card it is obvious, not sure how many would notice without comparing.

 

[Mudcatsfan]

Top, i know exactly what you're talking about and everyone on here who's saying they wouldn't care about 1/16" of an inch probably doesn't have a ruler handy. That's a HUGE DIFFERENCE on the border of a card.

I HATE HATE HATE getting a card that clearly looks trimmed because it puts you in the position of asking for a refund and thus, 'insulting' the person who sold it to you, because they take it like you're accusing them of trimming, OR you suck it up and risk being called a trimmer when you resell it.

IT sucks, and if a card looks thin in a scan, i won't even consider buying it.

Its just a shame when you cant tell till you get it in hand.

I say, ask for the refund, unless the price was sooooo good on it, that you figure you're willing to buy the card 'damaged'.

 

[Krom]

Top, i know exactly what you're talking about and everyone on here who's saying they wouldn't care about 1/16" of an inch probably doesn't have a ruler handy. That's a HUGE DIFFERENCE on the border of a card.

Your right 1/16 is about the width of a pencil lead. When the Heyward blue was compared to about 8 to 10 08 chrome autos, all of them were the same except the Heyward. Short compared to every one. Not worth the risk. But i have to say there are not many of my chrome autos i checked when i recieved them but i was glad i did when i sent t back. But i had a 71 Aaron that looked about an 8 i paid around 100 bucks and when i sold it years later the buyer saw little black touch ups makeing it worthless. It was too late to do anything about it so ths s*it does happen.

 

[predatorkj]

people trim cards to get a better grade
a lot of these are rejected by bgs as evidence of trimming
however people trim and continue to trim because some cards make it through the companies
so its not just raw cards that are trimmed
if companies could detect every trimmed card then people would stop trimming because whats the point

Its been going on for years. Grading changed it because now we have "experts" who deem the grade. So now...how do you word it correctly...uhhmmm...we have a sort of "fair" system everyone is "supposed" to subscribe to. Basically...if BGS or PSA or SGC says it has grade X then whatever grade it got is considered the grade it holds. Hence it took all the guesswork out of the equation and now people buy cards more "comfortably". And sellers don't have to work about hyping up the grade on any important card. Obviously the words in quotations are more or less subjective.

The problem became that after the grading starts...all of a sudden you can take a rinky dink card not worth more than $50 raw and now it turns into a several hundred dollar card. Or in the case of some, several thousand dollars. To me...that is where the problem lies. Owning the card became WAY less important than owning a gem mint card. Now don't get me wrong...owning a mint copy of any card is pretty much any advanced collector's goal when collecting. But it shouldn't become so bizarre to the point where a half point of a grade so crazily affects the value of the card. Grading did that and did it well. So its my opinion that while it was going on before...grading made it WAY more profitable and in turn it really got the gears churning.

But I have heard plenty of old school collectors talk about pressing and trimming and all kinds of crap. And this is before grading ever started. So its been going on. Ever since people worried so much about condition...it became a problem. Any time an opportunity presents itself...there are always those who will take advantage of it.

 

[predatorkj]

1/16" is a pretty big difference. Get a ruler out and see what that is. It's the sort of thing where you'd automatically notice a border being short.

But it's pretty common to see 1/32" or so variation. Next time you open a box, stack up all the cards and there's bound to be 1 or 2 that stick up above the rest, or dip below them.

Laid on another card it is obvious, not sure how many would notice without comparing.

A 1/16th is a big difference if compared. But it really may not be noticed to the naked eye. Its pretty small really.

 

[predatorkj]

Top, i know exactly what you're talking about and everyone on here who's saying they wouldn't care about 1/16" of an inch probably doesn't have a ruler handy. That's a HUGE DIFFERENCE on the border of a card.

I HATE HATE HATE getting a card that clearly looks trimmed because it puts you in the position of asking for a refund and thus, 'insulting' the person who sold it to you, because they take it like you're accusing them of trimming, OR you suck it up and risk being called a trimmer when you resell it.

IT sucks, and if a card looks thin in a scan, i won't even consider buying it.

Its just a shame when you cant tell till you get it in hand.

I say, ask for the refund, unless the price was sooooo good on it, that you figure you're willing to buy the card 'damaged'.

I used to work with a tape measure in hand daily. I am quite aware of how big it is but if its done on both borders(each side) now you are talking about a 1/32 of an inch and that is a lot less noticeable. But like you said...how can you automatically tell from a computer screen? You need it in hand.

 

[Topnotchsy]

Top, i know exactly what you're talking about and everyone on here who's saying they wouldn't care about 1/16" of an inch probably doesn't have a ruler handy. That's a HUGE DIFFERENCE on the border of a card.

I HATE HATE HATE getting a card that clearly looks trimmed because it puts you in the position of asking for a refund and thus, 'insulting' the person who sold it to you, because they take it like you're accusing them of trimming, OR you suck it up and risk being called a trimmer when you resell it.

IT sucks, and if a card looks thin in a scan, i won't even consider buying it.

Its just a shame when you cant tell till you get it in hand.

I say, ask for the refund, unless the price was sooooo good on it, that you figure you're willing to buy the card 'damaged'.

I used to work with a tape measure in hand daily. I am quite aware of how big it is but if its done on both borders(each side) now you are talking about a 1/32 of an inch and that is a lot less noticeable. But like you said...how can you automatically tell from a computer screen? You need it in hand.

Thanks for the responses guys. I measured it and the difference is roughly 1/32 of an inch (I believe.) It has no border, so it's a total of 1/32 off.

As for telling based on the image, it's kind of the same way I was able to tell it was off even though it was only 1/32 off... which is I have no real clue, but somehow I notice it's a drop off.

Mud- The issue for me is not whether I want the card or not at that price, it is whether there would be an ethical issue in reselling it. I've sent back cards in the past but this one is not a rookie card and the difference in size is quite small. (Also I bought a few things from the seller and would rather not try to send back one, but that is besides the point.)

So basically, is 1/32 of an inch enough of a reason to assume trimming?

 

[predatorkj]

Top, i know exactly what you're talking about and everyone on here who's saying they wouldn't care about 1/16" of an inch probably doesn't have a ruler handy. That's a HUGE DIFFERENCE on the border of a card.

I HATE HATE HATE getting a card that clearly looks trimmed because it puts you in the position of asking for a refund and thus, 'insulting' the person who sold it to you, because they take it like you're accusing them of trimming, OR you suck it up and risk being called a trimmer when you resell it.

IT sucks, and if a card looks thin in a scan, i won't even consider buying it.

Its just a shame when you cant tell till you get it in hand.

I say, ask for the refund, unless the price was sooooo good on it, that you figure you're willing to buy the card 'damaged'.

I used to work with a tape measure in hand daily. I am quite aware of how big it is but if its done on both borders(each side) now you are talking about a 1/32 of an inch and that is a lot less noticeable. But like you said...how can you automatically tell from a computer screen? You need it in hand.

Thanks for the responses guys. I measured it and the difference is roughly 1/32 of an inch (I believe.) It has no border, so it's a total of 1/32 off.

As for telling based on the image, it's kind of the same way I was able to tell it was off even though it was only 1/32 off... which is I have no real clue, but somehow I notice it's a drop off.

Mud- The issue for me is not whether I want the card or not at that price, it is whether there would be an ethical issue in reselling it. I've sent back cards in the past but this one is not a rookie card and the difference in size is quite small. (Also I bought a few things from the seller and would rather not try to send back one, but that is besides the point.)

So basically, is 1/32 of an inch enough of a reason to assume trimming?

You know...I have never been in a print shop where they made baseball cards but if what they use to cut the cards is anything(and I do mean anything) like what my dad had to use at his print shop to cut stuff...then trust me...1/32 of an inch aint crap.

 

[Topnotchsy]

I used to work with a tape measure in hand daily. I am quite aware of how big it is but if its done on both borders(each side) now you are talking about a 1/32 of an inch and that is a lot less noticeable. But like you said...how can you automatically tell from a computer screen? You need it in hand.

Thanks for the responses guys. I measured it and the difference is roughly 1/32 of an inch (I believe.) It has no border, so it's a total of 1/32 off.

As for telling based on the image, it's kind of the same way I was able to tell it was off even though it was only 1/32 off... which is I have no real clue, but somehow I notice it's a drop off.

Mud- The issue for me is not whether I want the card or not at that price, it is whether there would be an ethical issue in reselling it. I've sent back cards in the past but this one is not a rookie card and the difference in size is quite small. (Also I bought a few things from the seller and would rather not try to send back one, but that is besides the point.)

So basically, is 1/32 of an inch enough of a reason to assume trimming?[/quote]

You know...I have never been in a print shop where they made baseball cards but if what they use to cut the cards is anything(and I do mean anything) like what my dad had to use at his print shop to cut stuff...then trust me...1/32 of an inch aint crap.[/quote]
Pardon the ignorance, are you saying it is an issue or not an issue?

 

[predatorkj]

I used to work with a tape measure in hand daily. I am quite aware of how big it is but if its done on both borders(each side) now you are talking about a 1/32 of an inch and that is a lot less noticeable. But like you said...how can you automatically tell from a computer screen? You need it in hand.

Thanks for the responses guys. I measured it and the difference is roughly 1/32 of an inch (I believe.) It has no border, so it's a total of 1/32 off.

As for telling based on the image, it's kind of the same way I was able to tell it was off even though it was only 1/32 off... which is I have no real clue, but somehow I notice it's a drop off.

Mud- The issue for me is not whether I want the card or not at that price, it is whether there would be an ethical issue in reselling it. I've sent back cards in the past but this one is not a rookie card and the difference in size is quite small. (Also I bought a few things from the seller and would rather not try to send back one, but that is besides the point.)

So basically, is 1/32 of an inch enough of a reason to assume trimming?

You know...I have never been in a print shop where they made baseball cards but if what they use to cut the cards is anything(and I do mean anything) like what my dad had to use at his print shop to cut stuff...then trust me...1/32 of an inch aint crap.[/quote]
Pardon the ignorance, are you saying it is an issue or not an issue?[/quote]


I'd have to see what machine they use to cut the cards. That would tell me everything I need to know. That's all I can say.