Congrats to Ron Santo Golden Era Committee HOF selection !!

[ajbraves25]

Santo - .277/.362/.464/.826/125 OPS+/66.4 career WAR(15 seasons) 5 GG 1138 R 2254 H 342 HR 1331 RBI

If Santo had not been sick and played til 78 with the Cubs with just his average seasons his power numbers projected like this:

1519 R 2903 H 462 HR 1770 RBI along with his career avg of .277/.362/.464/.826/125 OPS+/66.4 career WAR most certianly puts him in the hall. His illness cut short his career and it is a shame.

Ozzie - .262/.337/.328/.666 /87 OPS+/21.6 career WAR(19 seasons) 13 GG 1257 R 2460 H 28 HR 793 RBI 580 SB

Omar - .272/.337/.353/.690/82 OPS+/29.0 career WAR(23 seasons) 11 GG 1432 R 2841 H 80 HR 944 RBI 401 SB

So what some say is that Ozzie with a great glove and 580 steals warrants his induction? I don't remember anyone calling him out for the Hall of Very Good. I'm sorry, but I have and will continue to say he really doesn't belong. I understand the way he changed the position of SS is played, but so what. Glove and steals = 2 of 5 tools. So Omar gets right in too? First ballot, better numbers minus 2 GG and 179 steals.

Only thing Puckett has on Santo is SB and 1 more GG and he got right in. This will ALWAYS be a touchy subject garnering this much attention and I love the debates. Nobody is completely wrong or right and that is what makes this so much fun.

~AJ

 

[ajbraves25]

Why do people use the "Hall of Very Good" argument when it's called the Hall of FAME and not the "Hall of The Very Best Statistically to Ever Play the Game". That argument makes little to no sense and it debilitates your position right from the get go.

The "Hall of Very Good" is often used to lump players that don't pass the eye test but stack up when taking a deeper dive into newer statistics. I am not fond of that term either because it often comes with no hard evidence to back it up - usually just something like "because I saw him play and he didn't measure up based on my world view".

But as to your other point, it is obviously called the Hall of Fame but the voters have clearly established this means the "Hall of The Very Best Statistically to Ever Play the Game". The voting record proves this beyond a shadow of a doubt and very few guys have made based on "Fame" without having the stats. I know Ozzie Smith is often thrown out as an example but to me, the very best defensive player to ever play the most demanding position on the diamond belongs.

Personally, I don't care who gets in. If I don't think a player is worthy, I simply don't think about him as worthy. To make such a big deal of it as some do is just pointless. Like I said, boycott the Hall if it bothers you so much (not you specifically). I am more perplexed by great players NOT getting, like Trammell, Raines and Whitaker. Santo was on that list too, so I am happy he made it. He deserved it.

On a side note, anyone who doesn't think Jim Rice is a Hall of Famer is completely nuts. For 12 years (1975-1986) he was one of THE most dangerous hitters in the league. No one in baseball drove in more runs than Rice during that 12-year span. In that span he was in top-5 MVP voting SIX freaking times while winning once and was an All-Star 8 times. It's not always about longevity and massive accumulated stats, which a lot of people don't seem to understand.

Two words - Jim Brown

~AJ

 

[elmalo]

Why do people use the "Hall of Very Good" argument when it's called the Hall of FAME and not the "Hall of The Very Best Statistically to Ever Play the Game". That argument makes little to no sense and it debilitates your position right from the get go.

The "Hall of Very Good" is often used to lump players that don't pass the eye test but stack up when taking a deeper dive into newer statistics. I am not fond of that term either because it often comes with no hard evidence to back it up - usually just something like "because I saw him play and he didn't measure up based on my world view".

But as to your other point, it is obviously called the Hall of Fame but the voters have clearly established this means the "Hall of The Very Best Statistically to Ever Play the Game". The voting record proves this beyond a shadow of a doubt and very few guys have made based on "Fame" without having the stats. I know Ozzie Smith is often thrown out as an example but to me, the very best defensive player to ever play the most demanding position on the diamond belongs.

Personally, I don't care who gets in. If I don't think a player is worthy, I simply don't think about him as worthy. To make such a big deal of it as some do is just pointless. Like I said, boycott the Hall if it bothers you so much (not you specifically). I am more perplexed by great players NOT getting, like Trammell, Raines and Whitaker. Santo was on that list too, so I am happy he made it. He deserved it.

On a side note, anyone who doesn't think Jim Rice is a Hall of Famer is completely nuts. For 12 years (1975-1986) he was one of THE most dangerous hitters in the league. No one in baseball drove in more runs than Rice during that 12-year span. In that span he was in top-5 MVP voting SIX freaking times while winning once and was an All-Star 8 times. It's not always about longevity and massive accumulated stats, which a lot of people don't seem to understand.

Rice was a beast and should have been in the Hall much earlier.

 

[elmalo]

Santo - .277/.362/.464/.826/125 OPS+/66.4 career WAR(15 seasons) 5 GG 1138 R 2254 H 342 HR 1331 RBI

If Santo had not been sick and played til 78 with the Cubs with just his average seasons his power numbers projected like this:

1519 R 2903 H 462 HR 1770 RBI along with his career avg of .277/.362/.464/.826/125 OPS+/66.4 career WAR most certianly puts him in the hall. His illness cut short his career and it is a shame.

Ozzie - .262/.337/.328/.666 /87 OPS+/21.6 career WAR(19 seasons) 13 GG 1257 R 2460 H 28 HR 793 RBI 580 SB

Omar - .272/.337/.353/.690/82 OPS+/29.0 career WAR(23 seasons) 11 GG 1432 R 2841 H 80 HR 944 RBI 401 SB

So what some say is that Ozzie with a great glove and 580 steals warrants his induction? I don't remember anyone calling him out for the Hall of Very Good. I'm sorry, but I have and will continue to say he really doesn't belong. I understand the way he changed the position of SS is played, but so what. Glove and steals = 2 of 5 tools. So Omar gets right in too? First ballot, better numbers minus 2 GG and 179 steals.

Only thing Puckett has on Santo is SB and 1 more GG and he got right in. This will ALWAYS be a touchy subject garnering this much attention and I love the debates. Nobody is completely wrong or right and that is what makes this so much fun.

~AJ

Ozzie Smith is a first ballot hall of famer for his glove, not sure why it is so hard to grasp.
I find this interestin as well:
Albert Belle
G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+
1539 6673 5853 974 1726 389 21 381 1239 88 41 683 961 .295 .369 .564 .933 143
Kirby Puckett
G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+
1783 7831 7244 1071 2304 414 57 207 1085 134 76 450 965 .318 .360 .477 .837 124
One of them is first ballot, lesser stats but a better "image", i.e the sportswriters loved him. The other was a much more dangerous and feared hitter however he didnt play the media game so the sportswriters dont like him and he didnt get enough votes to stay on the ballot. Funny how it turns out that the one with the good image actually wasnt all that good of a person.

 

[ajbraves25]

Santo - .277/.362/.464/.826/125 OPS+/66.4 career WAR(15 seasons) 5 GG 1138 R 2254 H 342 HR 1331 RBI

If Santo had not been sick and played til 78 with the Cubs with just his average seasons his power numbers projected like this:

1519 R 2903 H 462 HR 1770 RBI along with his career avg of .277/.362/.464/.826/125 OPS+/66.4 career WAR most certianly puts him in the hall. His illness cut short his career and it is a shame.

Ozzie - .262/.337/.328/.666 /87 OPS+/21.6 career WAR(19 seasons) 13 GG 1257 R 2460 H 28 HR 793 RBI 580 SB

Omar - .272/.337/.353/.690/82 OPS+/29.0 career WAR(23 seasons) 11 GG 1432 R 2841 H 80 HR 944 RBI 401 SB

So what some say is that Ozzie with a great glove and 580 steals warrants his induction? I don't remember anyone calling him out for the Hall of Very Good. I'm sorry, but I have and will continue to say he really doesn't belong. I understand the way he changed the position of SS is played, but so what. Glove and steals = 2 of 5 tools. So Omar gets right in too? First ballot, better numbers minus 2 GG and 179 steals.

Only thing Puckett has on Santo is SB and 1 more GG and he got right in. This will ALWAYS be a touchy subject garnering this much attention and I love the debates. Nobody is completely wrong or right and that is what makes this so much fun.

~AJ

Ozzie Smith is a first ballot hall of famer for his glove, not sure why it is so hard to grasp.
I find this interestin as well:
Albert Belle
G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+
1539 6673 5853 974 1726 389 21 381 1239 88 41 683 961 .295 .369 .564 .933 143
Kirby Puckett
G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+
1783 7831 7244 1071 2304 414 57 207 1085 134 76 450 965 .318 .360 .477 .837 124
One of them is first ballot, lesser stats but a better "image", i.e the sportswriters loved him. The other was a much more dangerous and feared hitter however he didnt play the media game so the sportswriters dont like him and he didnt get enough votes to stay on the ballot. Funny how it turns out that the one with the good image actually wasnt all that good of a person.

So if you had a vote, you would put Keith Hernandez in the Hall of Fame? Probably the best player to even pick it at that position. By yours and MANY people argument Ozzie got in purely due to his glove. So Hernandez isn't in for what reason? Omar has to get in to by those standards. Like I said nobody is right or wrong and that's what makes this topic so interesting.

Santo is in, should've been in a decade ago.

~AJ

 

[elmalo]

Santo - .277/.362/.464/.826/125 OPS+/66.4 career WAR(15 seasons) 5 GG 1138 R 2254 H 342 HR 1331 RBI

If Santo had not been sick and played til 78 with the Cubs with just his average seasons his power numbers projected like this:

1519 R 2903 H 462 HR 1770 RBI along with his career avg of .277/.362/.464/.826/125 OPS+/66.4 career WAR most certianly puts him in the hall. His illness cut short his career and it is a shame.

Ozzie - .262/.337/.328/.666 /87 OPS+/21.6 career WAR(19 seasons) 13 GG 1257 R 2460 H 28 HR 793 RBI 580 SB

Omar - .272/.337/.353/.690/82 OPS+/29.0 career WAR(23 seasons) 11 GG 1432 R 2841 H 80 HR 944 RBI 401 SB

So what some say is that Ozzie with a great glove and 580 steals warrants his induction? I don't remember anyone calling him out for the Hall of Very Good. I'm sorry, but I have and will continue to say he really doesn't belong. I understand the way he changed the position of SS is played, but so what. Glove and steals = 2 of 5 tools. So Omar gets right in too? First ballot, better numbers minus 2 GG and 179 steals.

Only thing Puckett has on Santo is SB and 1 more GG and he got right in. This will ALWAYS be a touchy subject garnering this much attention and I love the debates. Nobody is completely wrong or right and that is what makes this so much fun.

~AJ

Ozzie Smith is a first ballot hall of famer for his glove, not sure why it is so hard to grasp.
I find this interestin as well:
Albert Belle
G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+
1539 6673 5853 974 1726 389 21 381 1239 88 41 683 961 .295 .369 .564 .933 143
Kirby Puckett
G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+
1783 7831 7244 1071 2304 414 57 207 1085 134 76 450 965 .318 .360 .477 .837 124
One of them is first ballot, lesser stats but a better "image", i.e the sportswriters loved him. The other was a much more dangerous and feared hitter however he didnt play the media game so the sportswriters dont like him and he didnt get enough votes to stay on the ballot. Funny how it turns out that the one with the good image actually wasnt all that good of a person.

So if you had a vote, you would put Keith Hernandez in the Hall of Fame? Probably the best player to even pick it at that position. By yours and MANY people argument Ozzie got in purely due to his glove. So Hernandez isn't in for what reason? Omar has to get in to by those standards. Like I said nobody is right or wrong and that's what makes this topic so interesting.

Santo is in, should've been in a decade ago.

~AJ

The big difference is that one was a ss and the other was a first baseman.

 

[ChasHawk]

Quick question; why is it when someone disagrees with a selection that they are idiots, or not knowledgeable, uninformed, or whatever negative statement they can come up with, if they don't have the same opinion? I watched Santo play during his playing days and he was a very good player and I really liked him as a player, but I personally don't think he would be a HOFer. At this point it really doesn’t matter to much what I think because he’s in the HOF now. I do believe that if they start to put in “very good” players then it becomes the HOF of the very good, not the best. Then you can start the comparisons, i.e. if Ron Santo is in then Ken Boyer should be in as well. It’s my opinion that Boyer was just as good if not better than Santo.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but he did not receive over 43.1% to enter Cooperstown in fifteen (15) tries with the writers and four (4) with the Veterans Committee. Those that vote for the Baseball's greatest honor didn't believe he should be in the HOF. Also, he played for the Cubs and they didn't make it to the postseason during his playing career, which is the goal of a team, which I think hurt him in his HOF bid.

I do think it’s a shame to put him in after his passing.

Boyer was a better hitter than Brooks Robinson...I'll give him that.

.287/.349/.462/.810

 

[Mark70Z]

ChasHawk; great comment and thanks for those particular stats, even though I didn't even discuss Brooks Robinson.

By the way did you ever actually watch any of these guys your discussing actually play? If so, then you'd know and hopefully understand what I'm saying.