Curtis Granderson and the MVP award

[Wes]

I try to look at the MVP for what the award is supposed to represent. The player who is most valuable to their team. I have a really hard time picking an MVP from the Yankees or Red Sox because if you pull Granderson or A-Gon off those teams they will still be very good if not great.

Thats why I would have to go with Bautista right now. Not trying to take away anything from A-Gon or Granderson they have both been very good, but I don't think their teams performance would drop off much without them.

By the same logic if you pull Bautista off the Jays they're still a 4th place team.

That said, my MVP is either Pedroia or Bautista right now, MLB's two leaders in WAR. Ellsbury is right there as well.

Granderson is 12th in WAR, that isn't an MVP in my book.

 

[AndruwHRJones]

I try to look at the MVP for what the award is supposed to represent. The player who is most valuable to their team. I have a really hard time picking an MVP from the Yankees or Red Sox because if you pull Granderson or A-Gon off those teams they will still be very good if not great.

Thats why I would have to go with Bautista right now. Not trying to take away anything from A-Gon or Granderson they have both been very good, but I don't think their teams performance would drop off much without them.

By the same logic if you pull Bautista off the Jays they're still a 4th place team.

That said, my MVP is either Pedroia or Bautista right now, MLB's two leaders in WAR. Ellsbury is right there as well.

Granderson is 12th in WAR, that isn't an MVP in my book.

Not sure Granderson being 12th in WAR is really a reason to say he is not MVP worthy. Are Ben Zobrist and Alex Avilla MVP worthy sitting at 5th and 7th respectively?

I think Granderson is definately in the discussion right now. I just think his average needs to climb into the mid .280's if he wants a legit chance.

 

[nosterbor]

i think he has a good shot. when was the last time a player led the league in HR-Triples-Runs scored? he has a great shot at doing just that.

 

[elmalo]

Sure, it's great to get more hits. Ask Ichiro how he felt when he hit .372 and finished 7th in balloting behind a guy that hit .290, five others that hit with lower averages, and a pitcher.

We can all cherry-pick the stats, see?

NOONE is saying avg. is THE ONLY stat to look at. As for your Ichiro example, it is quite pathetic.

He finished 7th in the MVP race that year because 5 other hitters each hit over 34 HR's, over 121 RBI's, and all batted over .300 with the exception of 1.

While Ichiro hit .372 that year, his other stats were nowhere near comparable to the other 5 hitters who finished ahead of him.

+1

 

[elmalo]

Sure, it's great to get more hits. Ask Ichiro how he felt when he hit .372 and finished 7th in balloting behind a guy that hit .290, five others that hit with lower averages, and a pitcher.

We can all cherry-pick the stats, see?

NOONE is saying avg. is THE ONLY stat to look at. As for your Ichiro example, it is quite pathetic.

He finished 7th in the MVP race that year because 5 other hitters each hit over 34 HR's, over 121 RBI's, and all batted over .300 with the exception of 1.

While Ichiro hit .372 that year, his other stats were nowhere near comparable to the other 5 hitters who finished ahead of him.

+1

 

[klute14]

Just saying, I think that he needs to piss in a cup...
On pace for 49 homers? Really?

 

[elmalo]

Just saying, I think that he needs to piss in a cup...
On pace for 49 homers? Really?

They do that no. It isnt a reliable way to test.

 

[Wes]

i think he has a good shot. when was the last time a player led the league in HR-Triples-Runs scored? he has a great shot at doing just that.

Runs scored is one of the least player-dependent variables in baseball statistics. A huge percentage of it is a measurement of your teammates, not your performance.

 

[nosterbor]

i think he has a good shot. when was the last time a player led the league in HR-Triples-Runs scored? he has a great shot at doing just that.

Runs scored is one of the least player-dependent variables in baseball statistics. A huge percentage of it is a measurement of your teammates, not your performance.

sorry, i should have added RBI also. i guess that also reflects you teammates getting on base. and not hitting in the clutch.

 

[thefasterblade]

Yes, leading the league in runs isn't the most impressive or important stat in the world, but when you have more than 20 runs scored than anyone else in baseball, you're doing something right. When you're on pace to make a list that only one modern player has made in the last 80 years, you're doing something real special.

When you factor in he is also top two in Home Runs and also RBIs, what more is needed? The guy produces runs. He puts them up on the scoreboard.


Since when was Fenway Park not one of the best stadiums to hit in? When Gonzo came over in the off season, they expected him to get up near 50 HRs. They expected that number for a reason...Fenway Park. Instead, he utilized the dimensions of the field more and has the average rather than the HRs.

 

[Wes]

i think he has a good shot. when was the last time a player led the league in HR-Triples-Runs scored? he has a great shot at doing just that.

Runs scored is one of the least player-dependent variables in baseball statistics. A huge percentage of it is a measurement of your teammates, not your performance.

sorry, i should have added RBI also. i guess that also reflects you teammates getting on base. and not hitting in the clutch.

Your sarcasm is noted but actually it's true, RBI reflects your teammates getting on base, not "hitting in the clutch." In fact the entire league hits for a higher average with RISP. Here's a brief snippet:

1) If a pitcher has gotten to the point where there are runners on base...he's not at his absolute best...there is a selection bias involved in choosing at bats where the the pitcher is already in trouble.

2) With RISP the defense is often forced to change the way they're covering the field (infield in...a shift..the wheel play...outfield in...covering the lines...etc), and the new arrangement is not advantageous to the prevention of hits compared to the way the field is typically covered (it's covered that way for a reason...through the years we've determined the best way to position fielders to stop most hits).

"Clutchness" requires more than a demonstration that a player has a higher average with RISP...it requires the domstration that the player has hit significantly better than their average with bases empty...significantly being defined as a larger difference than is normally expected for RISP situations.

Hope that makes sense as to why simple RBI counts are not valuable for determining player value.

 

[vwnut13]

However, three of the main candidates, Ellsbury, Granderson, and Gonzalez play in teams with equally good lineups.

It's not like Granderson is driving in and scoring more runs because he has better players around him.

Gonzalez has Ellsbury and Pedroia in front of him, along with Ortiz and Youkilis behind him.

Granderson has Gardner and Jeter in front of him. And Teixeira and Cano behind him.

Considering that Granderson is hitting 0.075 less than Gonzalez, Granderson must be doing something right.

 

[Wes]

However, three of the main candidates, Ellsbury, Granderson, and Gonzalez play in teams with equally good lineups.

It's not like Granderson is driving in and scoring more runs because he has better players around him.

Gonzalez has Ellsbury and Pedroia in front of him, along with Ortiz and Youkilis behind him.

Granderson has Gardner and Jeter in front of him. And Teixeira and Cano behind him.

Considering that Granderson is hitting 0.075 less than Gonzalez, Granderson must be doing something right.

His inferior OBP and superior runs scored statistics disagree with you.

Adrian, for example, has a .412 OBP yet has only 81 runs scored. Granderson has a .366 OBP and 107 runs.

Adrian is on base more yet has scored less.

His teammates have not driven him in at the same rate that Granderson's teammates have driven him in.

 

[RL24]

However, three of the main candidates, Ellsbury, Granderson, and Gonzalez play in teams with equally good lineups.

It's not like Granderson is driving in and scoring more runs because he has better players around him.

Gonzalez has Ellsbury and Pedroia in front of him, along with Ortiz and Youkilis behind him.

Granderson has Gardner and Jeter in front of him. And Teixeira and Cano behind him.

Considering that Granderson is hitting 0.075 less than Gonzalez, Granderson must be doing something right.

His inferior OBP and superior runs scored statistics disagree with you.

Adrian, for example, has a .412 OBP yet has only 81 runs scored. Granderson has a .366 OBP and 107 runs.

Adrian is on base more yet has scored less.

His teammates have not driven him in at the same rate that Granderson's teammates have driven him in.

Does Granderson really count as one of Granderson's teammates? He has hit 33 HRs, and scored a run every time. If he didn't hit them, he would only have 74 runs. Then he would be having as good a season as Adrian Gonzalez, I guess. :: scratches head ::

If Adrian had hit 33 HRs so far this year, he would have 96 runs scored, and we could all say it's because his teammates drive him in.

 

[Zymco]

Granderson went 6-20 this week with 5 home runs. #lol

 

[miguelcabrera]

wonder where he got the roids from

 

[vwnut13]

Adrian is on base more yet has scored less.

His teammates have not driven him in at the same rate that Granderson's teammates have driven him in.

FACT: Adrian Gonzalez is one of the slowest players in the game, if not the slowest.

Granderson is able to produce runs by, stealing, bunting, tagging up, and most impotantly, scoring from second on a single.

Here are some intersting stats......

in 2011 Adrian Gonzalez is on pace for 742 PA.

Here is his projection for his career and this season over 742 PA.

CAREER.............................THIS SEASON
190 Hits............................234 Hits
40 Doubles........................50 Doubles
33 HR...............................25 HR
111 RBI............................127 RBI
102 Runs..........................112 Runs

This year he is on pace to hit 40 more singles than his career average over 742 Plate appearances, while hitting 8 less home runs and only driving in 16 more and scoring 10 more.

 

[nosterbor]

i am a Yankee Hater! i hate the Yankees! but i have to give the guy his due this year. when i look at his numbers they are just better than every one else,the guy just gets after it and makes things happen. as of right now he would be my MVP! as for Gonzalez, he should have 50 HRS by now in that ball park with that avg. seems like a big power outage for him this year. WHY?

 

[nborton]

For some reason everyone is shocked at Granderson's power numbers. People don't realize that if you take into consideration the stadium, Granderson would have put up the same kind of numbers in Detroit. Someone took all Granderson's hits from when he was in Detroit, and adjusted it for how many would clear the wall in NY, and I think he was right on the pace he's currently on.

 

[UMich92]

Adrian is on base more yet has scored less.

His teammates have not driven him in at the same rate that Granderson's teammates have driven him in.

FACT: Adrian Gonzalez is one of the slowest players in the game, if not the slowest.

Granderson is able to produce runs by, stealing, bunting, tagging up, and most impotantly, scoring from second on a single.

Here are some intersting stats......

in 2011 Adrian Gonzalez is on pace for 742 PA.

Here is his projection for his career and this season over 742 PA.

CAREER.............................THIS SEASON
190 Hits............................234 Hits
40 Doubles........................50 Doubles
33 HR...............................25 HR
111 RBI............................127 RBI
102 Runs..........................112 Runs

This year he is on pace to hit 40 more singles than his career average over 742 Plate appearances, while hitting 8 less home runs and only driving in 16 more and scoring 10 more.

Thanked post in regards to speed. Yes, it is a fact that runs scored depends heavily on depends. However, what is oftern overlooked is that a player with speed, ie Granderson, will give his team many more opportunities to drive him in than a player without speed, ie Gonzalez. Granderson has 22 SB. One would assume that many of these SB helped him to score a run that otherwise would not have been.

Anyway, at this point I still think Gonzalez would be a slight favorite of Granderson. Though, I'm rooting for Granderson.