Do some card dealers actually want to sell their cards?

[hofautos]

Combination of several things.

1) Marketing - tough cards bring interesting eyes
2) Marketing - as someone else mentioned, reputation of tough cards
3) They believe that eventually someone will meet their price
4) They don't mind keeping them in their "PC" until someone meets their price (they know cards that people always ask for lower price on)
5) Don't need the money, don't want to take the loss - They can always donate them or pass them down to family later

Although I am not a dealer, I understand and practice many of the reasons above myself.

Many times I sit on cards, sometimes over a year, and then someone nabs it...and many times, I get tired of looking and pay much more than I should too.
Also, sometimes just listing a card for a high price, makes others sell for higher, even if only a fraction of what you listed yours for.

Example: card x rarely shows up, but when it does it usually sells for $50. I list same card x for $100, and someone else lists as auction, and next time it sells for $70 instead of the typical $50.

The only case I would not understand is where there are tons of the same card, and they typically sell for much less, and the market is saturated...in that case the seller is just ignorant, but also in that case, it wouldn't frustrate you...obviously you started this thread because you were frustrated, so the card(s) you are thinking about are a little more rare than market saturation.

 

[uniquebaseballcards]

Buyers set the market, not sellers, so every card purchased is worth the amount sold for, unless of course the buyer was mislead or misinformed.

Sellers would like to *think* they set the market, but its pretty silly to think they really do.

Unlike buyers who pay an unusual amount of money for a card that is worth that amount, sellers who are looking to sell for an a unusual amount of money for a card worth 1/10th their asking price are crazy and/or desperate.

This is unless the seller doesn't need the money, only looking to show the card off or is just looking for the card to bring more attention to their other wares.

fixed

 

[KC37]

What bothers me most are sellers that are unreasonably high, but when they leave their table and try to buy from you, they try and make offers that low-ballers would cringe at.

Example - a friend of mine pulled the Topps Unique Ben Roethlisberger 1/1 NFL Logo Shield. He had it at the show today, and offered it to one of those kinds of sellers (with a 1/1 Topps All-Star Letter patch) for $500. Clinton Portis' shield has already sold for $250. Brees and Brady are up now, sure to hit near the $500 themselves. The d-bag seller tries to offer $150 for the pair because he "sold a JJ Arrington shield 2 years ago and only got $100". Because, you know, that's a fair comparison.

But d-bag seller won't take less than full book for a 2001 UD Pujols RC - a card available by the HUNDREDS.


There's another local guy - who is a nice guy - but whatever he pulls will be in his cases for the next 2 years. He pulled a Nolan Ryan "Express" auto 3/6 out of 2009 Ultimate, by the way, so if you wanted one of those, consider there to only be 5 available.

 

[maxpower]

Buyers set the market, not sellers, so every card purchased is worth the amount sold for, unless of course the buyer was mislead or misinformed.

Sellers would like to *think* they set the market, but its pretty silly to think they really do.

Huh? No market exists without demand AND supply. It's "silly" for either sellers OR buyers to think they "set" the market.

The difference between auction and BIN listings has clarified the issue for me. There are many, many, many cards that I sell that would go for $0.99 at auction. That's because at the moment the auction ends, there is only one interested party or there are two interested parties and the second is only willing to bid $0.99.

However, because I sell at BIN prices, my sale isn't dependent on the existence of a second bidder or on the amount that second bidder is willing to pay. My sale is dependent on the MAXIMUM amount that the buyer would pay. If that maximum is as high or higher than my asking price, a market is created. If not, there is no market. The buyer cannot set the market simply by offering a lower price.

 

[Mr.Whipple]

I just came home from a show and thats a big NO!!!!.. Two guys had great cards and sold for what they booked at. But tried offering me a Mark Sanchez patch auto #/99 for A Jordan auto /25 and two Jeters of mine. 275cv from him to my 600cv. But of course my cards had bad corners and scratches and such. His card was gem mint though. I liked a Kobe auto he had and offered it for a Score Mantle auto, Calling it a trade in my favor. I laughed shook his hand and walked away. I seen other dealers from other shows with cards they have had for a year or more. I did turn down a Pie Traynor 09 Sp legendary cut auto /5 for 300. You could barely see the auto on it and what a shame.

 

[uniquebaseballcards]

Yes, but BINs only reflect demand when they're hit by buyers. You left out some of the discussion below, we were talking BINS.

Buyers set the market, not sellers, so every card purchased is worth the amount sold for, unless of course the buyer was mislead or misinformed.

Sellers would like to *think* they set the market, but its pretty silly to think they really do.

Huh? No market exists without demand AND supply. It's "silly" for either sellers OR buyers to think they "set" the market.

The difference between auction and BIN listings has clarified the issue for me. There are many, many, many cards that I sell that would go for $0.99 at auction. That's because at the moment the auction ends, there is only one interested party or there are two interested parties and the second is only willing to bid $0.99.

However, because I sell at BIN prices, my sale isn't dependent on the existence of a second bidder or on the amount that second bidder is willing to pay. My sale is dependent on the MAXIMUM amount that the buyer would pay. If that maximum is as high or higher than my asking price, a market is created. If not, there is no market. The buyer cannot set the market simply by offering a lower price.

 

[maxpower]

Absolutely. I understand what you're saying, and it's true that BINs only reflect demand when they're hit by buyers (because at that point, price offered and price accepted intersect).

However, the fact that a willing buyer is a prerequisite to a market doesn't mean that the buyer "sets" the market. BOTH the buyer AND the seller are prerequisites. A seller unwilling to price a card low enough to get a hit on his BIN price is no different than a buyer who is not willing to hit an available BIN price.

Unless there's another willing buyer or another willing seller for the same card, you can't really say that the seller is overpricing the card or that the buyer is underpricing the card. They're simply expressing their own personal price points. If no deal happens, so be it.

I'm sorry to be coming across like an Econ 101 lesson. All I'm meaning to say is that I find it amusing when buyers approach me and try to tell me that I'm overpriced. To that, all I can say is that I've priced my cards at the price I'm willing to accept at this time. If I am truly overpriced, you don't have to approach me - simply buy the card somewhere else. If you can't buy the card somewhere else, I can't be overpriced because I am setting the "supply" part of the market. Then my card isn't overpriced - it's simply priced higher than you're willing to pay for it. Neither of us is wrong in that situation - it's just a matter of personal preference.

Yes, but BINs only reflect demand when they're hit by buyers. You left out some of the discussion below, we were talking BINS.

Buyers set the market, not sellers, so every card purchased is worth the amount sold for, unless of course the buyer was mislead or misinformed.

Sellers would like to *think* they set the market, but its pretty silly to think they really do.

Huh? No market exists without demand AND supply. It's "silly" for either sellers OR buyers to think they "set" the market.

The difference between auction and BIN listings has clarified the issue for me. There are many, many, many cards that I sell that would go for $0.99 at auction. That's because at the moment the auction ends, there is only one interested party or there are two interested parties and the second is only willing to bid $0.99.

However, because I sell at BIN prices, my sale isn't dependent on the existence of a second bidder or on the amount that second bidder is willing to pay. My sale is dependent on the MAXIMUM amount that the buyer would pay. If that maximum is as high or higher than my asking price, a market is created. If not, there is no market. The buyer cannot set the market simply by offering a lower price.

 

[uniquebaseballcards]

Heh, I think we're piecing this together OK. With regard to many rare cards, BINs are a poor indicator of market any way you look at it. Not only could the BINs be high, they can be low reflections of true market conditions...they're set by a seller's guess. Sellers may not set their BINs according to market conditions, they may be setting their bids at a level that will enable them to buy a car, need money ASAP, etc., they can be misinformed. We see sellers trolling ebay for BINs all the time looking for bargains they can flip because they know many BINs do not in fact reflect true market conditions.

The problem, really, is with Ebay. Ebay just isn't equipped properly for the sales of certain kinds of merchandise, such as high-end, rare cards. True auction houses are much better equipped to set the true market for high end, rare cards.

Absolutely. I understand what you're saying, and it's true that BINs only reflect demand when they're hit by buyers (because at that point, price offered and price accepted intersect).

However, the fact that a willing buyer is a prerequisite to a market doesn't mean that the buyer "sets" the market. BOTH the buyer AND the seller are prerequisites. A seller unwilling to price a card low enough to get a hit on his BIN price is no different than a buyer who is not willing to hit an available BIN price.

Unless there's another willing buyer or another willing seller for the same card, you can't really say that the seller is overpricing the card or that the buyer is underpricing the card. They're simply expressing their own personal price points. If no deal happens, so be it.

I'm sorry to be coming across like an Econ 101 lesson. All I'm meaning to say is that I find it amusing when buyers approach me and try to tell me that I'm overpriced. To that, all I can say is that I've priced my cards at the price I'm willing to accept at this time. If I am truly overpriced, you don't have to approach me - simply buy the card somewhere else. If you can't buy the card somewhere else, I can't be overpriced because I am setting the "supply" part of the market. Then my card isn't overpriced - it's simply priced higher than you're willing to pay for it. Neither of us is wrong in that situation - it's just a matter of personal preference.

Yes, but BINs only reflect demand when they're hit by buyers. You left out some of the discussion below, we were talking BINS.

Buyers set the market, not sellers, so every card purchased is worth the amount sold for, unless of course the buyer was mislead or misinformed.

Sellers would like to *think* they set the market, but its pretty silly to think they really do.

Huh? No market exists without demand AND supply. It's "silly" for either sellers OR buyers to think they "set" the market.

The difference between auction and BIN listings has clarified the issue for me. There are many, many, many cards that I sell that would go for $0.99 at auction. That's because at the moment the auction ends, there is only one interested party or there are two interested parties and the second is only willing to bid $0.99.

However, because I sell at BIN prices, my sale isn't dependent on the existence of a second bidder or on the amount that second bidder is willing to pay. My sale is dependent on the MAXIMUM amount that the buyer would pay. If that maximum is as high or higher than my asking price, a market is created. If not, there is no market. The buyer cannot set the market simply by offering a lower price.

 

[hofautos]

i overprice my cards, so that buyers can negotiate and feel good about their purchase...everyone wants to deal...so why ask what you are willing to take. I typically list my cards at 1.5 to 2 times what I am willing to take, and i am always excited when someone offers close to my bin or hits the bin without any negotiating!!

I just listed a matt holliday int'l refractor for $289, and wanted $150 for it. Someone offered $194, and it did the "auto accept". I love it!

 

[predatorkj]

Absolutely. I understand what you're saying, and it's true that BINs only reflect demand when they're hit by buyers (because at that point, price offered and price accepted intersect).

However, the fact that a willing buyer is a prerequisite to a market doesn't mean that the buyer "sets" the market. BOTH the buyer AND the seller are prerequisites. A seller unwilling to price a card low enough to get a hit on his BIN price is no different than a buyer who is not willing to hit an available BIN price.

Unless there's another willing buyer or another willing seller for the same card, you can't really say that the seller is overpricing the card or that the buyer is underpricing the card. They're simply expressing their own personal price points. If no deal happens, so be it.

I'm sorry to be coming across like an Econ 101 lesson. All I'm meaning to say is that I find it amusing when buyers approach me and try to tell me that I'm overpriced. To that, all I can say is that I've priced my cards at the price I'm willing to accept at this time. If I am truly overpriced, you don't have to approach me - simply buy the card somewhere else. If you can't buy the card somewhere else, I can't be overpriced because I am setting the "supply" part of the market. Then my card isn't overpriced - it's simply priced higher than you're willing to pay for it. Neither of us is wrong in that situation - it's just a matter of personal preference.

Yes, but BINs only reflect demand when they're hit by buyers. You left out some of the discussion below, we were talking BINS.

Buyers set the market, not sellers, so every card purchased is worth the amount sold for, unless of course the buyer was mislead or misinformed.

Sellers would like to *think* they set the market, but its pretty silly to think they really do.

Huh? No market exists without demand AND supply. It's "silly" for either sellers OR buyers to think they "set" the market.

The difference between auction and BIN listings has clarified the issue for me. There are many, many, many cards that I sell that would go for $0.99 at auction. That's because at the moment the auction ends, there is only one interested party or there are two interested parties and the second is only willing to bid $0.99.

However, because I sell at BIN prices, my sale isn't dependent on the existence of a second bidder or on the amount that second bidder is willing to pay. My sale is dependent on the MAXIMUM amount that the buyer would pay. If that maximum is as high or higher than my asking price, a market is created. If not, there is no market. The buyer cannot set the market simply by offering a lower price.

I diasgaree wholeheartedly. Buyers always set the market. It doesn't matter what you are selling. As long as you can sell it then you are just fine. But if a buyer refuses to buy...you are SOL. Don't believe me? Just think about all the houses( this may be a bad example because you don't live where I do and don't know exactly what I am referencing but I think you can get the gist of it) that were going up during the housing boom. It seemed like every single new neighborhood had houses starting no lower than the $200's. But the real thing was, once the banks snapped back to reality and stopped giving people loans there was no way in hell they could repay...these house still sit unlived in. I have a few whole neighborhoods where nobody lives that are within a 5 minute drive of my house. Nice brand new homes. Some of them mansions.

The point was that there are only so many people who can afford or will pay for a house that costs that much. Just like there are only so many people who can and will pay you $xx amount of dollars for xx card. But to sit there and think that you have any control over that as a seller is ludicrous. You might have 5 Dan Marino rookies you are selling at BV. There might be two people who come along and are more than fine paying that much for whatever reason. But you may be left holding the rest. You can sit there all day long and crow about what they are worth and that people are just lowballing you. Chances are...just because a certain amount of buyers will pay a certain amount for a card...it doesn't mean others will. The only thing you can bank on getting this kind of return on is really hot cards or cards that are rare that a player collector will want. But even then...there are still only so many people willing to pay that much. If I had to turn around and sell my Bagwells...chances are I wouldn't get as much as I payed for them. And even then...chances are that I am actually selling to the few people actually willing to pay a decent amount for them simply because they avidly collect his cards. To a guy in Florida or New York that doesn't collect Bagwell like I do...those cards are worth a lot less and they'd be willing to pay a lot less. A seller truly is at the mercy of buyers. Because if they don't like your price...they move on. And there are certainly plenty of cards to choose from. You are not holding too much over their head.


As for BINS...I myself have hit a few I deem to be higher than the going rate. But it saves me from having to competitvely bid and it also was convient. But it doesn't mean anyone else would hit it. Its why I have said time and time again...I don't like to use ebay as a going market rate for anything. On ebay...you are selling to the actual people who want certain cards. Obviously certain players have certain fans. But to think that the rest of the card buying population will net you equivalent prices is just setting yourself up for failure. What you pay good money on ebay for, I can find in a card shop cheaper depending on the card. Simply because I wasn't having to bid against an actual collector of said player. Maybe if everything was sold soley on ebay then we could go with it.

 

[klute14]

Well said.

I think that we are giving these dealers way to much credit for knowing what they have into a card? I highly doubt that these dealers have an accurate P&L, Balance Sheet and Statement of Cash Flows to indicate their business operations. No way. Case in point. I was looking for a 1975 SSPC Dave Kingman Promo at a show and was ecstatic when I located one. It had a price tag of $5 on it. The card "books" for $1. I asked him if he would take $3 (I hadn't seen one in this condition ever so I was willing to overpay). He said nope, he had to much money into it and he needed to get $5 for it. I politely said thank you and moved on. Really??? You really remember what you had into this DAVE KINGMAN card? I call BS. I have gone to the same show for the past 6 years and the same seller still has this same card with the same price of $5. (I have procured the card several years ago on ebay for $1). For S&G I always ask if he will accept my offer for $3 and every year he says he can't because he will lose money. I just walk away shaking my head. Doesn't he realize that he is already in the hole with that card by lugging it show to show for at least 6 years? By the time you factor in show costs, fuel costs, his time and other ancillary costs, he will NEVER make up his "cost". Why wouldn't you take $3 and be done with it? Does he really keep that detailed records where this "loss" will stick out on his P&L? No way. How many cards has he sold where he has made a profit to cover this "loss"? C'mon now. Slow moving or obsolete inventory costs you money. It's in your best interest to turn your inventory as quickly as possible to maximize profit and cash flow, if this is your primary business.

I diasgaree wholeheartedly. Buyers always set the market. It doesn't matter what you are selling. As long as you can sell it then you are just fine. But if a buyer refuses to buy...you are SOL. Don't believe me? Just think about all the houses( this may be a bad example because you don't live where I do and don't know exactly what I am referencing but I think you can get the gist of it) that were going up during the housing boom. It seemed like every single new neighborhood had houses starting no lower than the $200's. But the real thing was, once the banks snapped back to reality and stopped giving people loans there was no way in hell they could repay...these house still sit unlived in. I have a few whole neighborhoods where nobody lives that are within a 5 minute drive of my house. Nice brand new homes. Some of them mansions.

The point was that there are only so many people who can afford or will pay for a house that costs that much. Just like there are only so many people who can and will pay you $xx amount of dollars for xx card. But to sit there and think that you have any control over that as a seller is ludicrous. You might have 5 Dan Marino rookies you are selling at BV. There might be two people who come along and are more than fine paying that much for whatever reason. But you may be left holding the rest. You can sit there all day long and crow about what they are worth and that people are just lowballing you. Chances are...just because a certain amount of buyers will pay a certain amount for a card...it doesn't mean others will. The only thing you can bank on getting this kind of return on is really hot cards or cards that are rare that a player collector will want. But even then...there are still only so many people willing to pay that much. If I had to turn around and sell my Bagwells...chances are I wouldn't get as much as I payed for them. And even then...chances are that I am actually selling to the few people actually willing to pay a decent amount for them simply because they avidly collect his cards. To a guy in Florida or New York that doesn't collect Bagwell like I do...those cards are worth a lot less and they'd be willing to pay a lot less. A seller truly is at the mercy of buyers. Because if they don't like your price...they move on. And there are certainly plenty of cards to choose from. You are not holding too much over their head.


As for BINS...I myself have hit a few I deem to be higher than the going rate. But it saves me from having to competitvely bid and it also was convient. But it doesn't mean anyone else would hit it. Its why I have said time and time again...I don't like to use ebay as a going market rate for anything. On ebay...you are selling to the actual people who want certain cards. Obviously certain players have certain fans. But to think that the rest of the card buying population will net you equivalent prices is just setting yourself up for failure. What you pay good money on ebay for, I can find in a card shop cheaper depending on the card. Simply because I wasn't having to bid against an actual collector of said player. Maybe if everything was sold soley on ebay then we could go with it.

 

[maxpower]

Heh, I think we're piecing this together OK. With regard to many rare cards, BINs are a poor indicator of market any way you look at it. Not only could the BINs be high, they can be low reflections of true market conditions...they're set by a seller's guess. Sellers may not set their BINs according to market conditions, they may be setting their bids at a level that will enable them to buy a car, need money ASAP, etc., they can be misinformed. We see sellers trolling ebay for BINs all the time looking for bargains they can flip because they know many BINs do not in fact reflect true market conditions.

The problem, really, is with Ebay. Ebay just isn't equipped properly for the sales of certain kinds of merchandise, such as high-end, rare cards. True auction houses are much better equipped to set the true market for high end, rare cards.

Hahaha. I agree with most of what you're saying. BINs are not a terribly accurate way of pricing cards (for the reasons you discuss).

My contention is that eBay auctions are a similarly inaccurate way of pricing. If Buyer A is willing to pay $10 and Buyer B is willing to pay $0.99, the eBay auction model would price the item at $1.04. That's hardly a 'true market' either.

I think the idea of a 'true market price' is a myth for many of the cards sold on eBay. Even for ungraded 84T Mattingly rookies where there is a near constant supply and demand, the price has a wide range between $1 and $9. There's clearly a correct price range, but the idea that there is one "right" price is fairly tough to defend. A buyer can legitimately offer $2, but likewise, the seller can legitimately ask for $8. Neither really has the wrong price, but no deal is going to get done between the two parties. And the problem is even worse for modern, serial-numbered cards.

To bring it back around to the OP, I guess I'm saying that I strongly disagree with the idea that sellers with "high" prices are somehow crazy or have a strategy of not selling their cards. Yes, sometimes the sellers get it wrong and a card just sits forever. And sometimes a seller gets it right and eventually gets his asking price.

 

[jlyles]

I don't understand why we still have "Beckett value/book value/book price". I made an offer on a lot of cards that sell for $.99 each (yet they book for 45 together), I offered $7. The guy declined, countered with $18, and told me "Thanks for the chuckle, please let me know if you have any real interest."

Any real interest? I offered you more than they're worth.. I replied to him with this: "The chuckle? I guess you've never checked what the
cards ACTUALLY sell for. Thanks for the chuckle."

He replied "I don't give $H!+ what other people give cards away for, they are 95% of the reason the industry is in absolute ruins...that and the genius' that don't realize when you buy a card at 20% of book value, the only thing that happens is you LOWER THE VALUE OF THE CARD YOU BOUGHT!. I don't give cards away, 40% of book value is fair, if you need to steal cards for more of a discount there are plenty of hacks out there willing to help you. Enjoy!"

What a ******* dick. Have fun keeping those cards until you die. I would have bought them had he countered $12 or less and hadn't been an ass.

 

[ChasHawk]

I don't understand why we still have "Beckett value/book value/book price". I made an offer on a lot of cards that sell for $.99 each (yet they book for 45 together), I offered $7. The guy declined, countered with $18, and told me "Thanks for the chuckle, please let me know if you have any real interest."

Any real interest? I offered you more than they're worth.. I replied to him with this: "The chuckle? I guess you've never checked what the
cards ACTUALLY sell for. Thanks for the chuckle."

He replied "I don't give $H!+ what other people give cards away for, they are 95% of the reason the industry is in absolute ruins...that and the genius' that don't realize when you buy a card at 20% of book value, the only thing that happens is you LOWER THE VALUE OF THE CARD YOU BOUGHT!. I don't give cards away, 40% of book value is fair, if you need to steal cards for more of a discount there are plenty of hacks out there willing to help you. Enjoy!"

What a ******* dick. Have fun keeping those cards until you die. I would have bought them had he countered $12 or less and hadn't been an ass.

This right here is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about.

I run into this type of seller more than once at every show I've ever been to.

 

[Sportsnutcards]

I just came home from a show and thats a big NO!!!!.. Two guys had great cards and sold for what they booked at. But tried offering me a Mark Sanchez patch auto #/99 for A Jordan auto /25 and two Jeters of mine. 275cv from him to my 600cv. But of course my cards had bad corners and scratches and such. His card was gem mint though. I liked a Kobe auto he had and offered it for a Score Mantle auto, Calling it a trade in my favor. I laughed shook his hand and walked away. I seen other dealers from other shows with cards they have had for a year or more. I did turn down a Pie Traynor 09 Sp legendary cut auto /5 for 300. You could barely see the auto on it and what a shame.

The Pie traynor would have been a nice card if it was not faded. He said he had pulled it that way... Bordentown was tough yesterday. Usually, i don't have enough money, this time no one was looking to deal and I bought almost nothing.

 

[maxpower]

I see two different types of behavior here. The first is the dealer's rudeness, for which there is no excuse ("fracking dick" indeed). The second, however, is his prerogative to ask whatever he wants on his cards. In my opinion, the difference between $12 (what you were willing to pay) and $18 (what he was asking) is perfectly within the range of normal eBay variance. What cards "ACTUALLY sell for" is usually a range and not a single price. If the cards you're talking about are like most cards on eBay, sometimes they sell for $0.99 each and sometimes they get bids at $3.99 or even $4.99. It's not inconceivable that a seller would get $18 for cards that you're willing to pay $12 for.

But this is the great thing about the market. If a card truly is "worth" what the buyer says it is, he can simply go to a different dealer and purchase it there. No muss, no fuss!

I don't understand why we still have "Beckett value/book value/book price". I made an offer on a lot of cards that sell for $.99 each (yet they book for 45 together), I offered $7. The guy declined, countered with $18, and told me "Thanks for the chuckle, please let me know if you have any real interest."

Any real interest? I offered you more than they're worth.. I replied to him with this: "The chuckle? I guess you've never checked what the
cards ACTUALLY sell for. Thanks for the chuckle."

He replied "I don't give $H!+ what other people give cards away for, they are 95% of the reason the industry is in absolute ruins...that and the genius' that don't realize when you buy a card at 20% of book value, the only thing that happens is you LOWER THE VALUE OF THE CARD YOU BOUGHT!. I don't give cards away, 40% of book value is fair, if you need to steal cards for more of a discount there are plenty of hacks out there willing to help you. Enjoy!"

What a fracking dick. Have fun keeping those cards until you die. I would have bought them had he countered $12 or less and hadn't been an ass.

This right here is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about.

I run into this type of seller more than once at every show I've ever been to.

 

[maxpower]

Well, I have to completely disagree with predatorkj's characterization of the market. Even in a buyer's market, you still need sellers to complete the market. The buyer cannot set the price unilaterally. 'No buyer, no sale' is true, but the same could be said for 'no seller, no sale'. If the two can't agree on a price, then there is no market. The seller has to sit on inventory and the buyer has to do without whatever good he's trying to buy. Again, I'm not saying that the seller sets the market price or that the buyer isn't necessary ... all I'm saying is that you need both, or you have no market.

As for the Kingman card, you're right that the seller is likely full of shat on the P&L claims. However, both of you seem pretty darn stubborn. His behavior doesn't seem any less crazy to me than you going back year after year trying to get the card for $3 rather than just paying $5. Either one of you could end this six-year standoff for $2, and yet neither will.

I understand that at this point, it's more about winning-losing than the actual card, but still... I question both his desire to actually sell the card AND your desire to purchase it. =)

Well said.

I think that we are giving these dealers way to much credit for knowing what they have into a card? I highly doubt that these dealers have an accurate P&L, Balance Sheet and Statement of Cash Flows to indicate their business operations. No way. Case in point. I was looking for a 1975 SSPC Dave Kingman Promo at a show and was ecstatic when I located one. It had a price tag of $5 on it. The card "books" for $1. I asked him if he would take $3 (I hadn't seen one in this condition ever so I was willing to overpay). He said nope, he had to much money into it and he needed to get $5 for it. I politely said thank you and moved on. Really??? You really remember what you had into this DAVE KINGMAN card? I call BS. I have gone to the same show for the past 6 years and the same seller still has this same card with the same price of $5. (I have procured the card several years ago on ebay for $1). For S&G I always ask if he will accept my offer for $3 and every year he says he can't because he will lose money. I just walk away shaking my head. Doesn't he realize that he is already in the hole with that card by lugging it show to show for at least 6 years? By the time you factor in show costs, fuel costs, his time and other ancillary costs, he will NEVER make up his "cost". Why wouldn't you take $3 and be done with it? Does he really keep that detailed records where this "loss" will stick out on his P&L? No way. How many cards has he sold where he has made a profit to cover this "loss"? C'mon now. Slow moving or obsolete inventory costs you money. It's in your best interest to turn your inventory as quickly as possible to maximize profit and cash flow, if this is your primary business.

I diasgaree wholeheartedly. Buyers always set the market. It doesn't matter what you are selling. As long as you can sell it then you are just fine. But if a buyer refuses to buy...you are SOL. Don't believe me? Just think about all the houses( this may be a bad example because you don't live where I do and don't know exactly what I am referencing but I think you can get the gist of it) that were going up during the housing boom. It seemed like every single new neighborhood had houses starting no lower than the $200's. But the real thing was, once the banks snapped back to reality and stopped giving people loans there was no way in hell they could repay...these house still sit unlived in. I have a few whole neighborhoods where nobody lives that are within a 5 minute drive of my house. Nice brand new homes. Some of them mansions.

The point was that there are only so many people who can afford or will pay for a house that costs that much. Just like there are only so many people who can and will pay you $xx amount of dollars for xx card. But to sit there and think that you have any control over that as a seller is ludicrous. You might have 5 Dan Marino rookies you are selling at BV. There might be two people who come along and are more than fine paying that much for whatever reason. But you may be left holding the rest. You can sit there all day long and crow about what they are worth and that people are just lowballing you. Chances are...just because a certain amount of buyers will pay a certain amount for a card...it doesn't mean others will. The only thing you can bank on getting this kind of return on is really hot cards or cards that are rare that a player collector will want. But even then...there are still only so many people willing to pay that much. If I had to turn around and sell my Bagwells...chances are I wouldn't get as much as I payed for them. And even then...chances are that I am actually selling to the few people actually willing to pay a decent amount for them simply because they avidly collect his cards. To a guy in Florida or New York that doesn't collect Bagwell like I do...those cards are worth a lot less and they'd be willing to pay a lot less. A seller truly is at the mercy of buyers. Because if they don't like your price...they move on. And there are certainly plenty of cards to choose from. You are not holding too much over their head.


As for BINS...I myself have hit a few I deem to be higher than the going rate. But it saves me from having to competitvely bid and it also was convient. But it doesn't mean anyone else would hit it. Its why I have said time and time again...I don't like to use ebay as a going market rate for anything. On ebay...you are selling to the actual people who want certain cards. Obviously certain players have certain fans. But to think that the rest of the card buying population will net you equivalent prices is just setting yourself up for failure. What you pay good money on ebay for, I can find in a card shop cheaper depending on the card. Simply because I wasn't having to bid against an actual collector of said player. Maybe if everything was sold soley on ebay then we could go with it.

 

[predatorkj]

I don't understand why we still have "Beckett value/book value/book price". I made an offer on a lot of cards that sell for $.99 each (yet they book for 45 together), I offered $7. The guy declined, countered with $18, and told me "Thanks for the chuckle, please let me know if you have any real interest."

Any real interest? I offered you more than they're worth.. I replied to him with this: "The chuckle? I guess you've never checked what the
cards ACTUALLY sell for. Thanks for the chuckle."

He replied "I don't give $H!+ what other people give cards away for, they are 95% of the reason the industry is in absolute ruins...that and the genius' that don't realize when you buy a card at 20% of book value, the only thing that happens is you LOWER THE VALUE OF THE CARD YOU BOUGHT!. I don't give cards away, 40% of book value is fair, if you need to steal cards for more of a discount there are plenty of hacks out there willing to help you. Enjoy!"

What a fracking dick. Have fun keeping those cards until you die. I would have bought them had he countered $12 or less and hadn't been an ass.

I do agree with the seller on one key point. The use or lack thereof of BV is what has caused this hobby's downfall. At least to a degree. Back in the day if you sold cards you used BV. I couldn't walk into any shop with my mom when I was younger or even when I started going on my own and not feel the cards were a wee bit overpriced. Why? Using BV to price them. Even if they were willing to go lower...Its kind of intimidating seeing a shop where not one single card is less than $5 and things go up to the thousands. You feel outmanned and outgunned quick, financially. Another example...have any of you actually looked through a Beckett price guide within the last few years? If you were a casual fan, as I was between 2001 and 2006, every time you flipped through one it seemed there were billions of dollars worth of BV of cards made between 2000-2006. I mean literally. Page after page after page of $100-$500 cards. Anybody looking probably said "Jesus Christ...this hobby is way too expensive". And it kind of got that way. But with so much saturation...the cards have now lowered in value which kind of makes BV a starting point at best even though some use it religiously.

Now...people not paying BV means that the cards sell for less and are actually worth less in most people's eyes. The fact that a particular card may book for $50 but can regularly be had for about $20 or thereabouts does mean the cards are worth less. And the sellers who sell their cards for whatever the market bears are pretty much killing any value that BV holds. I could honestly care less. But it seems many people hate this because it means their cards ar enow worth less than they think.

 

[predatorkj]

Well, I have to completely disagree with predatorkj's characterization of the market. Even in a buyer's market, you still need sellers to complete the market. The buyer cannot set the price unilaterally. 'No buyer, no sale' is true, but the same could be said for 'no seller, no sale'. If the two can't agree on a price, then there is no market. The seller has to sit on inventory and the buyer has to do without whatever good he's trying to buy. Again, I'm not saying that the seller sets the market price or that the buyer isn't necessary ... all I'm saying is that you need both, or you have no market.

As for the Kingman card, you're right that the seller is likely full of shat on the P&L claims. However, both of you seem pretty darn stubborn. His behavior doesn't seem any less crazy to me than you going back year after year trying to get the card for $3 rather than just paying $5. Either one of you could end this six-year standoff for $2, and yet neither will.

I understand that at this point, it's more about winning-losing than the actual card, but still... I question both his desire to actually sell the card AND your desire to purchase it. =)

That's fine. It would be weird if everyone agreed with me on everything. My point is that while you do have to have a seller to have a market at all, the people setting the price are the ones paying. Because like I said...this hobby is much too big to hold anything over one buyers head. There is a Bagwell Crusades Red up right now on ebay with a BIN/BO of $999. There is also an MLB logoman for BIN of $599. While I would never even offer a fraction of this price even though I do want those two cards...who is really setting the market? A seller holding a card ransom or a buyer who actually has money to spend? If the card can't be sold , or in some cases, isn't sold very often, for what a seller wants to sell it at, then how could we say the seller is setting the price? He may be setting his price but you can't say that is the market value because its not selling. There may be 10 other sellers actually selling the same card on a regular basis for way less. That would eb the market value.

What you are basically saying is that I could go out right now and purchase anything, from a lamp to a television, and then set my price and tell people that I set the market value on it. Its not likely. If I go buy a lamp and say "Well...I am setting the value on it at $600", yet the same lamp can be had a J.C. Penney's for a whopping $40...what is the real going rate or market value? My $600 that doesn't sell or the $40 people are scooping them up in Penney's for? Hell...lets say I do sell my lamp. Does that still mean that the $600 I sold it for is the going rate? Nope. Its why this hobby is weird too because with things like 1/1's and whatnot...the value can fluctaute like nobody's business. What one person may buy it for is fine and dandy but they can't reasonably expect to get the same back for it. they may get less or more but its hard to nail down just one price.

I just think you have a money trail and wherever that leads is who is setting the value. Now if all sellers used ebay or all sellers used BV...and stuck to it much like gas stations stick to their prices...then you are closer to setting the market value. Since every seller is different...its not likely they can do this. Yet I go to the corner and see Chevron, Mobile, Exxon, and Valero all selling the same gas for real close prices. That's setting the market value. But then again...if people refuse to buy it...then what's the market value and who has more control or leverage? The buyer or the seller? It just depends on who breaks first. But in a case like cards...the buyer always has the upper hand because there are way too many cards for one card or one seller to have all the aces up his sleeve. Just like the inverse is true for gas because gas is gas and everyone needs it. They have the leverage. Nobody needs a card. If they do...there are still many other options and places for that money to go. Its what happens when you deal with a market that is based on a want and not a need. You sacrifice leverage.

 

[predatorkj]

Well said.

I think that we are giving these dealers way to much credit for knowing what they have into a card? I highly doubt that these dealers have an accurate P&L, Balance Sheet and Statement of Cash Flows to indicate their business operations. No way. Case in point. I was looking for a 1975 SSPC Dave Kingman Promo at a show and was ecstatic when I located one. It had a price tag of $5 on it. The card "books" for $1. I asked him if he would take $3 (I hadn't seen one in this condition ever so I was willing to overpay). He said nope, he had to much money into it and he needed to get $5 for it. I politely said thank you and moved on. Really??? You really remember what you had into this DAVE KINGMAN card? I call BS. I have gone to the same show for the past 6 years and the same seller still has this same card with the same price of $5. (I have procured the card several years ago on ebay for $1). For S&G I always ask if he will accept my offer for $3 and every year he says he can't because he will lose money. I just walk away shaking my head. Doesn't he realize that he is already in the hole with that card by lugging it show to show for at least 6 years? By the time you factor in show costs, fuel costs, his time and other ancillary costs, he will NEVER make up his "cost". Why wouldn't you take $3 and be done with it? Does he really keep that detailed records where this "loss" will stick out on his P&L? No way. How many cards has he sold where he has made a profit to cover this "loss"? C'mon now. Slow moving or obsolete inventory costs you money. It's in your best interest to turn your inventory as quickly as possible to maximize profit and cash flow, if this is your primary business.

He is hoping you come to your senses and just pay the extra $2. I think you should. Something like that is not that big of a deal. But now since you ask every year...he is probably more inclined to tell you no. Chances are he is just annoyed. IMO...if you can't reason with a seller and you know it...stay away. I am not saying you don't have a valid point but when two people really want something...they will go to the ends of the earth.