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Does greening or hulking affect grade

pootshwan

Member
Jan 26, 2010
917
Connecticut
So this isn't a baseball card but does happen on the earlier Topps Chrome baseball cards. This is high profile card that commands some serious cash, that is why I used it in this example.

Take a look at this Kobe 1996 Topps Chrome BGS 10 Pristine

I looked up the serial on BGS website and it shows as being graded on Monday, October 08, 2012.

There is a possibility that when the card was graded it didn't have any loss of color...but does it even matter?

Does greening or hulking affect overall grade for PSA & BGS?

Regardless of what the companies think, what is your opinion on the subject?
 

Randy Shields

Well-known member
Aug 20, 2008
2,224
OH-IO
I honestly think it's just a simple matter of the way the seller applied the lighting to the card when he took the picture. He could have edited it with a different filter too.

A lot of sellers do this to try to enhance the presentation of the card. That doesn't mean though that it always works out better.
 

JoshHamilton

Active member
Aug 7, 2008
12,079
I’m completely done with chrome cards because of this :/

IMO it’s not a matter of if current chrome cards start greening but when
 

Shaggy

Active member
Staff member
Administrator
Nov 6, 2019
265
Arizona
I have been wondering this myself. I am all over the older chromes and see alot of the hulking. I have noticed several newer carded cards(PSA is in the 4xxxxxxxxxx and 5xxxxxxxx) and alot of the cards that are hulked over are still getting good grades, PSA 8's and 9s and some 10s. So I am thinking that PSA doesn't degrade the card due to the hulking, but of course this is just my opinion.
 

Shaggy

Active member
Staff member
Administrator
Nov 6, 2019
265
Arizona
I’m completely done with chrome cards because of this :/

IMO it’s not a matter of if current chrome cards start greening but when

Hey Josh, do you mind changing out your sig pic as its showing a broken image from tinypic
 

smapdi

Well-known member
Aug 7, 2008
4,280
I'd think it's a surface demerit. If you were to take a PSA 10 or whatever that's hulking out, crack and regrade it, assuming no other changes to the card I'd have to think it would not be a 10 again.

Either way, I'd have to assume it affects value. I avoid buying hulked out cards, and I'm sure many other collectors do, too.
 

Randy Shields

Well-known member
Aug 20, 2008
2,224
OH-IO
Okay so after doing a little research I see that this is an issue and I was not aware of it to be totally honest. Apparently I'm a bit behind the times because the Topps Chrome and Finest baseball, basketball and football cards that I have from those years and other years have no greening issues on them at all. And being away from the hobby for 6 years I guess I kind of missed out on all of the greening and hulking conversations.

But after reading some threads pertaining to this I see a lot of people believing it's caused by sunlight or indoor lighting, while others believe it's caused by humidity and still some who believe it's caused by the way they were produced and others with the way they were stored. And most believe that Topps starting making them a different way and this hasn't really been an issue since around 1999.

No one seems to have a firm grasp of what causes this but it is a very disappointing part of that shiney generation.

Either way for me personally it does present a problem if the cards that have this were to be graded with this issue or regraded with this issue and have it not be a knock.

IF they were to ignore this issue then why not ignore any other issue that causes any kind of depreciation of a card? And I'm not just talking chrome cards.
I mean how can you simply ignore the "aging process" no matter what it pertains to?
 

mjda

New member
May 2, 2012
22
You posted this thread on every card forum I frequent. How much money do you make posting your affiliate links on these forums?
 

Philip J. Fry

Well-known member
Aug 9, 2008
5,578
Ohio
I miss older TC/BC goo...good times.

Yep. The attention to detail, especially with refractors, was incredible. Long live etching! (Yes, I'm aware that newer releases of Topps Chrome do have etching, but I stumbled across Bowman Chrome and ugh, no depth at all (aka etching) and the cards seem "flat" in that respect.

As for the topic at hand, I have several chrome-based cards from the 90s and a good number of those cards are starting to get green. They're stored in boxes in penny sleeves and rarely see light.
 

PeteD

Active member
Oct 15, 2009
2,140
Southern Ont.
Yep. The attention to detail, especially with refractors, was incredible. Long live etching! (Yes, I'm aware that newer releases of Topps Chrome do have etching, but I stumbled across Bowman Chrome and ugh, no depth at all (aka etching) and the cards seem "flat" in that respect.

As for the topic at hand, I have several chrome-based cards from the 90s and a good number of those cards are starting to get green. They're stored in boxes in penny sleeves and rarely see light.
Yep. The attention to detail, especially with refractors, was incredible. Long live etching! (Yes, I'm aware that newer releases of Topps Chrome do have etching, but I stumbled across Bowman Chrome and ugh, no depth at all (aka etching) and the cards seem "flat" in that respect.

As for the topic at hand, I have several chrome-based cards from the 90s and a good number of those cards are starting to get green. They're stored in boxes in penny sleeves and rarely see light.

At least Finest came with a peel coating haha
 

Letch77

Well-known member
Jan 28, 2018
1,247
Midwest
Either way for me personally it does present a problem if the cards that have this were to be graded with this issue or regraded with this issue and have it not be a knock.

IF they were to ignore this issue then why not ignore any other issue that causes any kind of depreciation of a card? And I'm not just talking chrome cards.
I mean how can you simply ignore the "aging process" no matter what it pertains to?
I agree. If someone looking to buy a PSA/BGS 10 chrome card has two options for the exact same price, I guarantee that 10 out of 10 times they'll buy the one that doesn't have any fading/greening. It'd be a disservice to the grading concept as a whole if they didn't knock the green ones down at least .5.
 

WizardofOz1982

Well-known member
Sep 30, 2017
1,035
Oklahoma
I agree. If someone looking to buy a PSA/BGS 10 chrome card has two options for the exact same price, I guarantee that 10 out of 10 times they'll buy the one that doesn't have any fading/greening. It'd be a disservice to the grading concept as a whole if they didn't knock the green ones down at least .5.

If it went green after being graded though it isn't the grading companies fault. There's no way to tell though.
 

Letch77

Well-known member
Jan 28, 2018
1,247
Midwest
If it went green after being graded though it isn't the grading companies fault. There's no way to tell though.
I assumed, for the discussion, that the card was being sent for grading or regrading after it had already greened. The only sure way to know would be to send a 9 or 10 that greened after the initial grading and have it regraded...but not a chance I'd be willing to take! ;)
 

WCTYSON

Well-known member
Nov 3, 2014
7,219
Okay so after doing a little research I see that this is an issue and I was not aware of it to be totally honest. Apparently I'm a bit behind the times because the Topps Chrome and Finest baseball, basketball and football cards that I have from those years and other years have no greening issues on them at all. And being away from the hobby for 6 years I guess I kind of missed out on all of the greening and hulking conversations.

But after reading some threads pertaining to this I see a lot of people believing it's caused by sunlight or indoor lighting, while others believe it's caused by humidity and still some who believe it's caused by the way they were produced and others with the way they were stored. And most believe that Topps starting making them a different way and this hasn't really been an issue since around 1999.

No one seems to have a firm grasp of what causes this but it is a very disappointing part of that shiney generation.

Either way for me personally it does present a problem if the cards that have this were to be graded with this issue or regraded with this issue and have it not be a knock.

IF they were to ignore this issue then why not ignore any other issue that causes any kind of depreciation of a card? And I'm not just talking chrome cards.
I mean how can you simply ignore the "aging process" no matter what it pertains to?

I’ll do my best to see if I can clarify a few things and start by saying I spent about two decades in sheetfed commercial offset printing.

From what I gather, the issue comes from cards that were produced before UV curing became the norm for chrome cards; the early 2000’s was the shift.

Unlike conventional offset printing, UV curing occurs by the time the sheets are delivered at the front end of a press. With conventional printing there is always a drying time before you can print the other side or go to the next step in the process, like cutting and bindery.

UV greatly increased production numbers by all but removing curing times, with a few print quality trade offs. With UV, you are not going to get as sharp of a printing dot and the ink will not trap as clean as conventional printing.

Where UV printing is now, is not where it was quality wise since the earlier days. UV ink and coating compositions have greatly changed.

I’ve also seen a lot of early UV printing use conventional water based varnishes and coatings for varying effects; which would never completely cure.

I collected as a kid in the 80’s, didn’t through the 90’s, and then returned well into the 2000’s. So I do not have any cards from this transition period into UV printing for chrome cards. That being said, I suspect the coatings used during this time are degrading and just like with conventional printing; light is always going to damage the card.
 

Randy Shields

Well-known member
Aug 20, 2008
2,224
OH-IO
I’ll do my best to see if I can clarify a few things and start by saying I spent about two decades in sheetfed commercial offset printing.

From what I gather, the issue comes from cards that were produced before UV curing became the norm for chrome cards; the early 2000’s was the shift.

Unlike conventional offset printing, UV curing occurs by the time the sheets are delivered at the front end of a press. With conventional printing there is always a drying time before you can print the other side or go to the next step in the process, like cutting and bindery.

UV greatly increased production numbers by all but removing curing times, with a few print quality trade offs. With UV, you are not going to get as sharp of a printing dot and the ink will not trap as clean as conventional printing.

Where UV printing is now, is not where it was quality wise since the earlier days. UV ink and coating compositions have greatly changed.

I’ve also seen a lot of early UV printing use conventional water based varnishes and coatings for varying effects; which would never completely cure.

I collected as a kid in the 80’s, didn’t through the 90’s, and then returned well into the 2000’s. So I do not have any cards from this transition period into UV printing for chrome cards. That being said, I suspect the coatings used during this time are degrading and just like with conventional printing; light is always going to damage the card.

This makes the most sense Warren, and seeing how you have a lot of experience in this area I wouldn't doubt your explanation here as being the actual cause.
Obviously no one knows for sure but this sounds like the best answer to me anyway.

If it went green after being graded though it isn't the grading companies fault. There's no way to tell though.

No, absolutely not. There's no way you could hold a Grading Company responsible for the depreciation of a card once they've graded and slabbed the card.

I agree. If someone looking to buy a PSA/BGS 10 chrome card has two options for the exact same price, I guarantee that 10 out of 10 times they'll buy the one that doesn't have any fading/greening. It'd be a disservice to the grading concept as a whole if they didn't knock the green ones down at least .5.

Yes and not only would they buy the one that doesn't have the greening/hulking effect, they would pay hundreds or even thousands of dollars more for it, especially it were a Kobe for instance, than for the one that doesn't have the depreciation over the one that does.
It really falls into the same category too of eye appeal such as a card being perfectly centered vs. one that's not but they both have the same grade.

As far as a grade depreciation for cards that have greened, I would say it could or should be much more than a .5, quite possibly a full grade or more but that's just my opinion.

Here are some pics for an upcoming Golden Auction of Kobe Topps Chrome RC's and the greening/hulking issues appear to be much more prevalent on the PSA 10 and the BGS 9.5 refractors.
The auction ends on the 18th and it's also worth noting that as I posted this the PSA 10 refractor is at $240,000 and the bgs 9.5 refractor is at $80,000. There's just been such a huge gap that has developed between PSA and bgs in recent months and it appears as though it continues to widen.

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