Does it bother anyone else?

[Joewoowoo]

most of the stuff they cut up is not GU'ed anyway.. just more like a term used to describe the items. most of the stuff is either manufactured or just regular jersey, glove or bat.. and most of the other cut items like auto's there is an abundance of on the market.. if there wasn't they wouldn't be releasing them yearly like they do. I highly doubt they are buying and destroying anything truely historical as those items would fetch top dollar on the market anyway.. more like they are recycling items that would otherwise not be.

What do you mean by this statement, Jose?? Are you saying that when a company issues a game-used item and states it on the card as game used(i.e.: game used jersey or game used bat), you believe it not to be actually game used. Where's your proof?? I believe if this is the practice, alot of lawsuits would've been filed by consumers of their products.

I am not saying that these are fakes but know that u bring it up has anyone ever challenged these card companies to produce proof of there authenticity? Do you remember a few yrs back when I beleive Richard Simon a well know authenticator deemed a ruth auto that was in a Upperdeck card to be a forgery and it turned out to be just that, what im saying is maybe its wrong to destroy a game used jersey of ruth, mantle Dimaggio,etc.. to put it in a card. would you also say that it would be fine to cut up a copy of the Declaration of Independance and put pieces into a card . I would say no.Dont get me wrong I own some beautiful GU cards , just wondering if I was the only one who had this opinion .

 

[EmeraldRain]

haha, you TC's crack me up :lol:

This will probably be scattered a bit and in the end, is just my own opinion on the matter..

I am VERY much against the destruction of baseballs history and past and even present. Sure, the current players wear more jerseys than they did back then. Even so, there's only a certain amount of stuff out there. I know I will NEVER own a Babe Ruth game used bat or jersey, but there are some folks in this world that can and do. I hate to think about the fact that a jersey worn by him was shredded to pieces to make people feel closer to the player/game. I absolutely think these items should reside in private collections or museums for future generations, they will eventually surface at some point to the public eye. I may never see some of these great items in my lifetime but they should be preserved regardless. Destroying a jersey into thousands of pieces is NOT preserving the history of the sport we love to watch so much.

Is nothing sacred in this hobby? Should the Baseball HOF empty it's vaults and display cases completely and just let the card companies take it all and chop it to bits? Why not? It seems only in this hobby that destruction of the past is glorified and praised. The BHOF should remove all game used items and just put gu cards in place instead, same thing right? to my knowledge stamp collecting, doesn't chop up Upside down jennys and put them into other stamps.. you don't find paintings with old pieces of rare one of a kind portions inserted into them. But this hooby.. nothing is off limits it seems. Where are the Black Betsy cards.. it's just an old bat right, only one out there, who cares of it's history, instead of enjoying it as a whole we as a hobby should enjoy it in slivers. I should sell my Felix Hernandez rookie gamer to Topps or UD, it shouldn't be preserved for future generations, we should have no trace of his rookie game used items, only photos. *I know he's not a HOF'er but maybe he could be. If you want to argue, we can substitute my Rickey Henderson gamer(obvious HOF'er), same story.

Brings me to another point.. Can anyone here prove 100% without a doubt that the material in your cards is in fact game used and beyond that, game used by said player? you can tell me all day long, it has a coa on the back blah blah.. that is no more valuable than a sheet of paper most coa's are printed on. UD has even gone as far now as to saying, it was certified to us as being used, so they are taking NO responsability now in making sure what their buyers are bringing in is in fact real. In fact I think it's even better if the stuff they bring is NOT real, but that's just me. In the end you have an inch of material.. how can you possibly say for sure it was even issued to said player?

More often than not,you can buy the whole item for the same price you pay for a couple of "prime patch" cards. Vintage HOF stuff is different but we shouldn't be cutting it up in the first place. Many poeple bring up the issue of storage, well a card is easier to store than a whole bat, sure but that doesn't mean it's right to chop up the bat for the sake of storage.

Looking through a major memorabilia auction house catalog and seeing old items from years past is enough for me to enjoy the relics still intact. In the end, it's a hobby for me on both sides, cards and full sized game used memorabilia. Neither should be destroyed to promote the hobby, there is no need for it. I will say that yes I do own numerous gu cards and still buy them for my player collections but my players are all current and there are more items out there for them that the game used hobby hasn't really noticed much of a change in prices due to the chopping.

I have constantly debated about if I still want to be in the card hobby simpy because just buying even base cards from a dealer is still supporting chopping up history. In the end though, people will collect what they do regardless.. I'm happy with my base cards and full sized game used pieces.

 

[Pete14Rose]

I highly doubt that EVERY single piece of "game used" bat or "game used' jersey from a card is actually, 100% GAME USED. Not saying all are not, but I suspect that some...if not most...are just jerseys and bats..either team issued or whatnot.

I personally don't care. I don't own the card because I truly believe it's game used, never have. I own it because it looks nice or it's just a card that I want.

As for the reasoning that UD or Topps wouldn't risk the lawsuit....please. They know full well that you or I wouldn't and couldn't prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt that the small piece of whatever isn't game used. Just as we can't prove that it really is...100%...beyond taking the company's word for it.

Just my take from my 25+ years in this hobby.

 

[tramers]

well said e-rain

 

[braden]

I don't believe for a second that all advertised GU pieces are actually GU. Obviously I have no proof, nor am I looking for any.

 

[wideright]

There was an article recently about a high end GU jersey collector buying a signed Favre gamer. Come to find out, Mr. Favre himself authenticated it as being a gamer, and it was proven in photos that the jersey was not a gamer. So, when the athletes themselves are saying they are gamers and are wrong sometimes, then it's highly likely a lot of the pieces released in cards are not game used items. This casts a huge shadow across GU stuff for me. If I ever get into buying game used memorabilia, I will be doing a ton of research before anything is bought. I think photo evidence is needed in this industry to show just when an athlete used a piece in a game before calling it "game-used". This term, along with "COA", is becoming too generally used and accepted by hobbyists.

 

[Pete14Rose]

There was an article recently about a high end GU jersey collector buying a signed Favre gamer. Come to find out, Mr. Favre himself authenticated it as being a gamer, and it was proven in photos that the jersey was not a gamer. So, when the athletes themselves are saying they are gamers and are wrong sometimes, then it's highly likely a lot of the pieces released in cards are not game used items. This casts a huge shadow across GU stuff for me. If I ever get into buying game used memorabilia, I will be doing a ton of research before anything is bought. I think photo evidence is needed in this industry to show just when an athlete used a piece in a game before calling it "game-used". This term, along with "COA", is becoming too generally used and accepted by hobbyists.

Perfectly put.

 

[jondawg04]

Dealing with some of these athletes directly, I do believe I have a bit of insight here in to the game used items card manufacturers put out. I do know that the companies have deals directly with the teams to receive game used items throughout the year, as well as additional items from specific players. Some card companies also purchase game used items from the auction houses.

I believe the game used jersey swatches of current players are 99.9% legit as a whole, since they are received directly from the teams, but the bat pieces I would be a bit afraid of. While teams do ship in quite a few bats from the players, many of the bats sent in are game issued bats. I know this for a fact, as one specific player I dealt with said he kept all of his game USED bats for family members, even though there are quite a few game used bat cards of him on the market. His BP bats and game issued bats were what he would submit to the companies. All the players have to do is say the item was game used, and that is good enough for the card manufacturers.

I highly doubt that EVERY single piece of "game used" bat or "game used' jersey from a card is actually, 100% GAME USED. Not saying all are not, but I suspect that some...if not most...are just jerseys and bats..either team issued or whatnot.

I personally don't care. I don't own the card because I truly believe it's game used, never have. I own it because it looks nice or it's just a card that I want.

As for the reasoning that UD or Topps wouldn't risk the lawsuit....please. They know full well that you or I wouldn't and couldn't prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt that the small piece of whatever isn't game used. Just as we can't prove that it really is...100%...beyond taking the company's word for it.

Just my take from my 25+ years in this hobby.

 

[1st4040]

I think the only way to settle this GU'ed jersey card debate is to tear out the jersey and have it DNA tested.. if it was truely GU'ed or game worn it should have some sweat that can be proven to be authentic sweat of the player in question..

any CSI experts on the board?

 

[George K]

I like a lot of the stuff EmeraldRain said, but I still don't mind too much the game-used stuff as long as it can be proved that it is what they say it is. Wouldn't it be cool if the jersey and bats were identified as to when they were used? I think so.

Rain, another thing is that more and more people have so little regard for the history of the game. Have you seen the pain people have when they get a Duke Snider or Bob Gibson or Tom Seaver autograph from some products... it's like these guys mean nothing to them because they aren't high dollars cards. Guys like these are the backbone of the game. Heck, I get excited when I pull Dwight Evans or Dave Parker or Marty Marion. All these guys mean something to me.

To some youngsters and history fanatics, that little piece of jersey and bat allows many to go to Cooperstown without leaving their sofa. Hopefully it'll encourage them to read about the game and enjoy it more. It would be a better hobby if some knew and appreciated more about the players than just what they're worth.

 

[Pete14Rose]

... another thing is that more and more people have so little regard for the history of the game. Have you seen the pain people have when they get a Duke Snider or Bob Gibson or Tom Seaver autograph from some products... it's like these guys mean nothing to them because they aren't high dollars cards. Guys like these are the backbone of the game. Heck, I get excited when I pull Dwight Evans or Dave Parker or Marty Marion. All these guys mean something to me.

Amen.

 

[predatorkj]

... another thing is that more and more people have so little regard for the history of the game. Have you seen the pain people have when they get a Duke Snider or Bob Gibson or Tom Seaver autograph from some products... it's like these guys mean nothing to them because they aren't high dollars cards. Guys like these are the backbone of the game. Heck, I get excited when I pull Dwight Evans or Dave Parker or Marty Marion. All these guys mean something to me.

Amen.

I'd seriously crap my pants if I pulled any of those.I know I did when I pulled my Phil Rizzuto auto.

As for the game used stuff...lets look at it this way:

First and foremost...there are far too many GU cards out there.Even at an inch a piece...a lot of them are numbered pretty high and if not...there is another parallel from the same set of the same player with more generic one colored swatches from most likely the same jersey,

That being said...its got to be absolutely impossible for the companies to know for sure what the hell they have.Hence...the changing over time of the statement on the backs of cards.Someone already mentioned it before but a lot of the say the same thing.Basically the item was presented to them as being authentic and used by said player yadda yadda yadda.So they are covering their ass right there no doubt.That way...even if something against them did surface...they have no responsibility in the matter.

A lot of the older items are what I question more and more.Its odd that there are so many Ruth pieces and even other older players.So many Ruth cut autos and others.Sure some of them are fake.You know why?Because there are not a billion of them to go around.And the companies have people buying from anybody and anyone.A lot of times half of this stuff is not even authenticated or proved to be what it is said to be first.It is either up for auction or sold through estate sales or what have you.But these people put their pants on the same way you and I do and its not out of the realm of logic they buy things the same way we would have to.If you know there is a good chance we could get stiffed at any given time on any given item...what makes everyone feel like these people couldn't?These people do not have the resources to authenticate every thing they put in their cards.Nor the time.They buy what looks to be legit and then sell it as being legit.Whether it is or not...is your problem.And as long as we buy any of this stuff or there is a market for it...this will always be the way things are.

As for the newer players' stuff...who knows.I am inclined to agree its certainly more valid to think it is legit and is at least used by the player at some point.I would feel just fine knowing Bagwell at least at one time owned some of the stuff I have cut up pieces of.Thats about all I get out of the GU stuff.If it wasn't used in any actual particular game...thats cool.As long as its not some $20 Rawlings big stick bat somebody purchased at Academy and sold the companies making them believe it was actually owned by Bags.And I certainly think with the amount of stuff that these companies cut up...there has to be a huge percentage of stuff that is not GU stuff.How many bats does a player go through in a season?How many jerseys? Certainly not enough to make 8 zillion cards of.Maybe they do but I certainly don't think its all sold to the companies.A lot of stuff gets auctioned off to private collectors and also gets passed on to friends, kids and other people who have an interest in it.

But who honestly knows.As things are...the companies get a ton of supposed GU stuff they have no real idea whether or not its been used.They don;t go through the time and research to make sure it was or even when it was or how it was used.They don't put any incriminating language on the backs of the cards with their authenticity statement.Thats about all you should need to know right there.

You may or may not have a piece of GU material in any given card.

As for the cutting up of precious historical items...its a two way street.I probably will never even have the time to go see anything in cooperstown not to mention all of the stuff stashed away in private collections.If the only way I can ever own any of it is a small piece in a card...thats cool.I just think they need to limit what they produce of certain players.I don't want to find out one day there is only one whole intact Ruth bat left after all the GU cut up dust settles.But given the private collector side of it...I doubt that will happen either.

 

[thefasterblade]

It actually bothers me a lot. I find it asinine.

 

[i43770]

I think it is great. They aren't going into Cooperstown and taking stuff off display to cut up. They are buying items that are in the open market. I would rather have the chance of buying a little piece of Babe Ruth's jersey or bat, instead of it going in to a private collection and never being seen again.

Will the prewar players GU stuff eventially dry up? Probably. But we live in a here and now world.

It is just like when people had a fit when David Wells wore the Babe Ruth game used hat, during a game. It is his hat, he can do with it what he wants. Just like the card companies, they pay for the jerseys, they can do with them what they want.

 

[George K]

I wanted to add that I don't exactly expect a game-used item to be dated to the exact game. I believe that it is possible to list around what year or seasons ( much like a listing in an auction) of the origin of the item. It isn't hard to do. Donruss something similar in 2001 for their game-used when those cards had a picture on-back of the full artifact. Beautiful items. It doesn't get better than that. It makes your artifact more interesting and gives it character.

 

[EmeraldRain]

It's kinda like endangered animals, only when there's a couple left do we do something about it. The problem here is.. there is only a finite number of items for vintage, once it's all chopped up, thats it there will be no more, EVER. Even if companies are buying on the open market, why is that a boundry, really, why do we have a BHOF museum to view these relics as whole items? For the sake of cards and spreading around the wealth we should dip into their vaults and keep the scissors going right? Having the mentality of "There's always more stashed away in private collections" will bite back in the end. At some point the private collections will be exhausted and all they can say is oops.. we thought there were more items out there, oh well, here check out these scraps we cut instead. Or as long as the HOF has at least 1 item of said player it's ok to destroy the rest for the sake of the hobby?

I was at a used book store the other night looking at baseball books and many on the history of the game. Lots of them had numerous photos and all I could think is, the jersey that guy is wearing, there's a good chance it's been cut up and no longer exists in it's original form, this photo is the only real evidence left of it. I also feel it is true that a majority of kids today don't really know or care about the roots of baseball. It's sad but that's the way it is and while I certainly need a lesson on the history I do like to read up on players I never got to see.

I love autographed cards.. from Hank Aaron to Anthony Sanders.. it doesn't need to have a big resale value to be a neat card. I would be stoked to pull any of those previously mentioned and all would get the same treatment, in a slot of a 9 pocket page so I can look at it later over and over.

Spending hundreds of dollars for a MLB logo patch is one of the most silly things. Same with buttons and even the 2 I bought for my Felix PC, I still feel kinda like an ass in my own mind for paying as much as I did for 1 button that was reportedly from a Felix gamer. Esp. when I already own the WHOLE thing, buttons patches tags and all.

With the amount of gu cards that companies put out, can they really be so sure that everything is real. It would obviously take a team of people months to research it all and make sure it's legit, unless it's "LL" doing all the work then everything is golden regardless. Do you think these companies have a game used authenticity research team? yea, I don't think so either. I've collected Mariners Game Used items for nearly 8 years now and there is so much I still don't know just about Mariners game used items, but these companies get this stuff new and old every year without fail. I feel like I'm sounding like CardCop now, but I will say I am working on something where I feel that some patches aren't game used but merely a retail authentic cut up. It's a small sample and of 1 player, but still it reflects upon the hobby. It will take much more evidence of course but I may post it here for the forum to help determine if I'm going crazy or not :lol:

 

[wideright]

There needs to ACCOUNTABILITY and not NAIVITY. Card companies are so blinded by dollars just trying to stay afloat in this economy. All they can see is the next product being released and how much us "suckers" are going to buy of said product. The ONLY question they are asking is, "How can we get them to keep buying or buy more?" The answer is ALWAYS: more GU and more autos. Yet for some reason, these so-called "hits" continue to go down in quality and not up. Sure, some of the latest Donruss jumbo patches look pretty sick, but when did we as collectors settle for sticker autos? Why does a player-touched sticker have as much meaning as a player-touched card? It doesn't in my opinion.

We're the ones who've "allowed" the hobby to evolve as it is today. By supporting the continued sales of these dollar-driven companies, we are doing NOTHING to change the hobby or make it better or to PRESERVE HISTORY. And by God, WE do have the control, not these companies.

I think a few thousand letters and blogs to the HOF board, to MLB/MiLB Players Assoc's, to industry publications expressing these concerns might get someone's attention to actually listen. Even if there is nothing done, at least our collective voices will have been heard.

Ask yourselves. Do we REALLY need any more Game-used cards released? My answer is No. I think 16-17 years worth of mutilated baseball history is ENOUGH.

 

[Pete14Rose]

There needs to ACCOUNTABILITY and not NAIVITY. Card companies are so blinded by dollars just trying to stay afloat in this economy. All they can see is the next product being released and how much us "suckers" are going to buy of said product. The ONLY question they are asking is, "How can we get them to keep buying or buy more?" The answer is ALWAYS: more GU and more autos. Yet for some reason, these so-called "hits" continue to go down in quality and not up. Sure, some of the latest Donruss jumbo patches look pretty sick, but when did we as collectors settle for sticker autos? Why does a player-touched sticker have as much meaning as a player-touched card? It doesn't in my opinion.

We're the ones who've "allowed" the hobby to evolve as it is today. By supporting the continued sales of these dollar-driven companies, we are doing NOTHING to change the hobby or make it better or to PRESERVE HISTORY. And by God, WE do have the control, not these companies.

I think a few thousand letters and blogs to the HOF board, to MLB/MiLB Players Assoc's, to industry publications expressing these concerns might get someone's attention to actually listen. Even if there is nothing done, at least our collective voices will have been heard.

Ask yourselves. Do we REALLY need any more Game-used cards released? My answer is No. I think 16-17 years worth of mutilated baseball history is ENOUGH.

This post should be a sticky. I think this idea could be applied to the overall state the hobby is in, not just about game used cards, but the overall lack of quality control.

 

[mlbsalltimegreats]

It's kinda like endangered animals, only when there's a couple left do we do something about it. The problem here is.. there is only a finite number of items for vintage, once it's all chopped up, thats it there will be no more, EVER. Even if companies are buying on the open market, why is that a boundry, really, why do we have a BHOF museum to view these relics as whole items? For the sake of cards and spreading around the wealth we should dip into their vaults and keep the scissors going right? Having the mentality of "There's always more stashed away in private collections" will bite back in the end. At some point the private collections will be exhausted and all they can say is oops.. we thought there were more items out there, oh well, here check out these scraps we cut instead. Or as long as the HOF has at least 1 item of said player it's ok to destroy the rest for the sake of the hobby?

I was at a used book store the other night looking at baseball books and many on the history of the game. Lots of them had numerous photos and all I could think is, the jersey that guy is wearing, there's a good chance it's been cut up and no longer exists in it's original form, this photo is the only real evidence left of it. I also feel it is true that a majority of kids today don't really know or care about the roots of baseball. It's sad but that's the way it is and while I certainly need a lesson on the history I do like to read up on players I never got to see.

I love autographed cards.. from Hank Aaron to Anthony Sanders.. it doesn't need to have a big resale value to be a neat card. I would be stoked to pull any of those previously mentioned and all would get the same treatment, in a slot of a 9 pocket page so I can look at it later over and over.

Spending hundreds of dollars for a MLB logo patch is one of the most silly things. Same with buttons and even the 2 I bought for my Felix PC, I still feel kinda like an ass in my own mind for paying as much as I did for 1 button that was reportedly from a Felix gamer. Esp. when I already own the WHOLE thing, buttons patches tags and all.

With the amount of gu cards that companies put out, can they really be so sure that everything is real. It would obviously take a team of people months to research it all and make sure it's legit, unless it's "LL" doing all the work then everything is golden regardless. Do you think these companies have a game used authenticity research team? yea, I don't think so either. I've collected Mariners Game Used items for nearly 8 years now and there is so much I still don't know just about Mariners game used items, but these companies get this stuff new and old every year without fail. I feel like I'm sounding like CardCop now, but I will say I am working on something where I feel that some patches aren't game used but merely a retail authentic cut up. It's a small sample and of 1 player, but still it reflects upon the hobby. It will take much more evidence of course but I may post it here for the forum to help determine if I'm going crazy or not :lol:

I dont think its silly I love all this stuff. I just go with it. When it runs out it runs out. I am one of the few people that enjoys any game used item. Rob bell or Babe ruth I get a thrill flipping thru my cards and seeing jersey pieces. Because of my thrill "to be closer to the game" I unfortunatly do not have $150,000 for a ruth gamer and am satified with a $500 piece and get just as much of a thrill having a tiny piece as I would a full gamer. I owned 2 full gamers before (David cone, Sid Fernandez) and got rid of them because it took up too much space and I had just as much thrill as having my David cone patch card as I did a full gamer. So for me I dont get to technical with what they cut up because If I had the same view as yourself I would quit collecting cards as a whole because it would bother me to much, but everyone is different. As long as they continue to make Hofer cards I will continue to buy them if possible. If it turns out that the gamers are not real then I got burnt like thousands of other people and I got to take it for what it is. With your mind set it would really be tuff for me to stay in the card hobby and wish you good luck. Good post by the way!!

 

[EmeraldRain]

I'm curious though.. and just something I was thinking about on the slow car ride home thanks to the snow and stupid drivers.

What if I or anyone, any large corperation, decided to go out and buy up to 10(ten) t206 Honus Wagners.. cut them into 4 equal pieces each and then glue them to a baseball bat? How would the baseball card hobby feel about that? You could have a game used bat with a piece of rare t206 honus on it, image how neat that would be! Let's do the same with some Pujols Chrome rookies.. buy up a bunch, chop em up and glue pieces to a jersey, man you could walk around wearing a jersey that has a genuine piece of Pujols Bowman Chrome rookie on it, HOT! Mantle 52's would be even better huh, no wait that UD card with the Griffey and Mantle dual sigs, chop that in half and glue each one to a seperate jersey, awesome! What if we took the Buster Possey(sp?) *I'm not a prospector* Sterling 1/1 and chopped that bad boy up.. would the hobby cheer or jeer? Talk about bringing you closer to the hobby, you can wear it around town or while washing the car.. and have a piece of that special card with you. *Yes that paragraph was loaded with sarcasm.

In all reality I bet the hobby would balk at that and say look how dumb that is, destroying those precious cards, what a waste of money, etc. I know I'm by far kicking the crap out of a dead horse by now but eh.. whatever. The hobby is what it is and it's tough to stay in and support something that I feel is so wrong but I do like the part of the hobby that I agree with, base cards, inserts/parallels, autos. Problem is I know there's no way for the hobby to stop drooling over tiny bits of material in cards..