Grace indicted on 4 felony counts of DUI

[sportscardtheory]

Slow down hot wheels!

I gave an opinion that a person who willingly chooses to drink and drive, repeatedly, should not be classified a decent person. You can see it however you wish, this is my opinion. You assume he has a disease and that somehow makes everything ok? Crack heads have a disease too but I'm not going to give repeated 'passes' to them because it makes them go and rob people for money to fund their addiction. Give you a break? Give Grace a Break? He is a selfish tool that denies responsibility and continually puts lives in danger for his guilty pleasure. Not once but twice now. And let us not pretend this is the only 2 times he has ever got behind the wheel under the influience, and just had the 'bad luck' to be cought both times. This 'decent person' has probablly put the lives of others in jeopardy dozens, if not hundreds of times without guilt or reservation. Yeah, real decent person...

It's always easy for someone who is not an alcoholic to look down on others with the disease. High horses all over the place in this thread. I'll throw some logic at you. I would suspect that there was no malice in what Grace did. I think it's safe to say that he wasn't TRYING to hurt anyone and didn't WANT to hurt anyone. So knowing this, how is he, in your opinion, not a "decent person"? See, malice, or lack thereof, is a HUGE part of understanding someone's "decency" or lack thereof.

 

[morgoth]

Oh come on, man. I know Grace is your man and own a Grace website, but this didn't "happen twice."
He got caught twice. He's most likely driven drunk hundreds of times, each time putting lives at risk.
I know you wrote he deserves whatever punishment he gets, but his behavior is beyond getting "a second shot" as you put it.
And this may be a low blow, but I don't care: You own websites of a multiple drunk driver and Cap Anson, one of baseball history's most documented racists. Bravo.

Actually I view your post and now you as to be below Grace and Anson as human beings, neither was really trying to to be ********** but your response is totally trying to be ****** just so you can feel superior to someone else. Bravo

 

[Austin]

Actually I view your post and now you as to be below Grace and Anson as human beings, neither was really trying to to be ********** but your response is totally trying to be ****** just so you can feel superior to someone else. Bravo

Yes, I am totally trying to feel superior. (*rolls eyes*)
Tears are now streaming down my rosey cheeks as I wonder how I could say such horrible things about a selfish drunk driver who put lives at risk and a terrible racist who thought other people were sub-human because of the color of their skin.
But you're right. I'm "trying to be a ******," which as you say, is worse than being a racist.
Thanks for setting me straight.

 

[morgoth]

Yes, I am totally trying to feel superior. (*rolls eyes*)
Tears are now streaming down my rosey cheeks as I wonder how I could say such horrible things about a selfish drunk driver who put lives at risk and a terrible racist who thought other people were sub-human because of the color of their skin.
But you're right. I'm "trying to be a ******," which as you say, is worse than being a racist.
Thanks for setting me straight.

if you cant understand context of when someone lived or how dependency actually affects judgement you are either 10 yrs old or just not that bright

 

[matfanofold]

It's always easy for someone who is not an alcoholic to look down on others with the disease. High horses all over the place in this thread. I'll throw some logic at you. I would suspect that there was no malice in what Grace did. I think it's safe to say that he wasn't TRYING to hurt anyone and didn't WANT to hurt anyone. So knowing this, how is he, in your opinion, not a "decent person"? See, malice, or lack thereof, is a HUGE part of understanding someone's "decency" or lack thereof.

I expected such a response, but despite trying to use 'logic' you simply resort to flawed opinion as a subsitution. Lets play a game shall we? Lets remove any and all personal biasness one may have and simply look at this logicly, honestly this time. First, one does not need to be an alcoholic to know he had willingly broken the law multiple times. Even if his judgment was impaired, this was a lesson he was afforded the freedom to learn and overcome on the first offense. After the first criminal act and subsiquent guilt by means of an action taken while 'impaired' would it not be responsible (even mandated by law) that you take precautions so that your 'impaired judgment' does not find you in the same law breaking situation again? Ok, then we can agree that using the 'impaired judgment' excuse holds no water and Grace needs to he held accountable as if it was a direct and intentful law breaking action (because it logically and factually was).

Now, you want to pardon this by way of "he wasn't TRYING to hurt anyone and didn't WANT to hurt anyone" and I believe that to be true. But what does it really have to do with anything? If you know drinking and driving is against the law but you do it anyway... If you know this action can lead to injury or death of innocent people but you do it anyway.. If you have been arrested by breaking the law by doing just that, but you do it anyway (again)... If you fail to follow court mandated precautions set in place to help you from breaking this law which puts innocent lives in jeopardy, and you do it anyway... How can that be considered anything but trying to hurt someone? If he is ignoring and/or dismissing every single warning and precaution given to him to help from hurting innocent people, what is he actually doing then?

My personal expierence with these matters is irrelevent and so is yours. I am looking at this logicly and without bias. I do not know Grace one way or the other. What I do know is that he continually puts lives in jeopardy because of selfish decisions. That is all the truth of the matter that is logically known. And to be able to say that someone who willingly does this, or puts himself in a position to make such terrible decisions (that is by action or inaction putting lives in jeopardy) repeatedly is a decent guy? Well, I just can not do that.

Now if you think that I need a high horse to simply look at something logicly and without bias then so be it.

 

[Austin]

if you cant understand context of when someone lived or how dependency actually affects judgement you are either 10 yrs old or just not that bright

And when you grieve after a relative is killed by a drunk driver like I have, then see how much you care about how dependancy affects judgement. Until then, I don't give a rat's ass what you think about me.

 

[sportscardtheory]

I expected such a response, but despite trying to use 'logic' you simply resort to flawed opinion as a subsitution. Lets play a game shall we? Lets remove any and all personal biasness one may have and simply look at this logicly, honestly this time. First, one does not need to be an alcoholic to know he had willingly broken the law multiple times. Even if his judgment was impaired, this was a lesson he was afforded the freedom to learn and overcome on the first offense. After the first criminal act and subsiquent guilt by means of an action taken while 'impaired' would it not be responsible (even mandated by law) that you take precautions so that your 'impaired judgment' does not find you in the same law breaking situation again? Ok, then we can agree that using the 'impaired judgment' excuse holds no water and Grace needs to he held accountable as if it was a direct and intentful law breaking action (because it logically and factually was).

Now, you want to pardon this by way of "he wasn't TRYING to hurt anyone and didn't WANT to hurt anyone" and I believe that to be true. But what does it really have to do with anything? If you know drinking and driving is against the law but you do it anyway... If you know this action can lead to injury or death of innocent people but you do it anyway.. If you have been arrested by breaking the law by doing just that, but you do it anyway (again)... If you fail to follow court mandated precautions set in place to help you from breaking this law which puts innocent lives in jeopardy, and you do it anyway... How can that be considered anything but trying to hurt someone? If he is ignoring and/or dismissing every single warning and precaution given to him to help from hurting innocent people, what is he actually doing then?

My personal expierence with these matters is irrelevent and so is yours. I am looking at this logicly and without bias. I do not know Grace one way or the other. What I do know is that he continually puts lives in jeopardy because of selfish decisions. That is all the truth of the matter that is logically known. And to be able to say that someone who willingly does this, or puts himself in a position to make such terrible decisions (that is by action or inaction putting lives in jeopardy) repeatedly is a decent guy? Well, I just can not do that.

Now if you think that I need a high horse to simply look at something logicly and without bias then so be it.

I appreciate the well thought-out response. I am also looking at this from an unbiased view point. I am not a Grace "fan" per-say and I have no other reason to defend his decency other than the fact that I don't believe that malice-free actions define someone's decency. I would call him stupid and possibly ignorant, but not indecent. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on the matter of impaired judgement precluding someone from being a "decent" person. No big deal. We all have opinions.

 

[morgoth]

And when you grieve after a relative is killed by a drunk driver like I have, then see how much you care about how dependancy affects judgement. Until then, I don't give a rat's ass what you think about me.

Throwing personal tragedy into it is just a cheap effect to get sympathy and has nothing to do with the argument at hand. It never was about agreeing with what they did but understanding how it could happen and how they could still be ok people in other ways.

But thats not why I called you a ******, its because you insulted a fan of both players for building a great website? Really, did you go there and look around first or did you just spout out that asinine comment?

The site, especially the Anson content is a historical archive of an important player in baseball history. It is important someone documents important people and events. You basically said that he was just as bad as Grace (Drunk) and Anson (Racist) for doing so and for that you are a ******.

 

[Austin]

You basically said that he was just as bad as Grace (Drunk) and Anson (Racist) for doing so and for that you are a ******.

That's obviously not what I wrote nor meant. Now let's please just stop arguing about it.

 

[Lancemountain]

That's obviously not what I wrote nor meant. Now let's please just stop arguing about it.

I read it that way as well. Why don't you explain what you meant by that comment?

 

[Austin]

I read it that way as well. Why don't you explain what you meant by that comment?

That comment was, "You own websites of a multiple drunk driver and Cap Anson, one of baseball history's most documented racists. Bravo."

Nowhere in that statement did I accuse, imply nor compare him to those players. I do not admire those players because of their actions (Grace) and beliefs (Anson), therefore I think it is unfortunate, in my opinion, that he owns a website with two players who I consider scum.

But in no way do I consider him like those players. He admires them for their talents as players, and I understand the historical significance of the Anson website.

I apologize if he and members took the statement as more that what was my intention.
Gracecollector took the criticism with class and expanded upon his site, and I appreciate that.

 

[gracecollector]

I didn't take offense, I just think he's shortsighted. Before his DUI's, Grace was loved by a majority of fans, considered a great teammate by those he played with, and very well respected for his charity work and community involvement. I don't think that taken overall, Grace is "scum." Even with his DUI's, I still think he is overall someone who is a good person, albeit with flaws. Just like most of us. But Austin is entitled to his opinion. He likes Rickey Henderson for instance, and I consider him cocky, self-possessed, and arrogant. Not someone I hold in high regard. But undoubtably a great player.

Anson was gruff, would take advantage of any situation if he could gain for his team, and was a racist. So were most of the other players of the day. The owners were worse. The quality of baseball suffered for both their actions. But Anson was the most respected player in his day by ballplayers, media and the public. Only one small newspaper made mention of Anson's most famous racist statement the day after it happened. The others didn't find it newsworthy. Historical perspective is required when passing judgement.