HALLADAY/LINCECUM NAMED STARTERS

[trademhigh]

He probably has the most games started as a Red Sock. I don't know for a fact, but I'm sure if he doesn't have the most, he's right up there. And, 4.31 ERA is a lot worse than Greinke's and Haladay's.

Wakefield is 3rd on all time list with red sox.
Discounting Zach's phenominal "fluke" start, his last 8 starts are
2W 6L 3.98ERA.

With the Royals run support, Wakefield would definitely have a worse record. With the Red Sox run support, that 2 and 6 would look more like 6-2 or 7-1.

...because I'm bored waiting for the wife to get home...yay house hunting :|

Average Run Support For AL Starters

Wakefield 6.56
Halladay 5.86
Beckett 5.71
King Felix 5.51
Verlander 5.05
Edwin Jackson 4.03
Greinke 3.78

Just for kicks the NL
Lincecum 5.46
Marquis 5.19
Billingsley 5.09
Duke 4.56
Johnson 4.53
Lilly 4.40
Haren 4.47
Johan Santana 3.14

Look at the lineups pitchers in the NL have to face! As I posted the other day a huge % of guys like Lincecum and Cain starts come against teams in the basement as far as scoring runs. If Josh Beckett pitched against the Padres every 2-3 starts he would win 30 games. Wakefield might win 20, which he will probably do anyways, and both of their ERA's would be dramatically lower. You can't compare anything between the AL and NL. Completely different baseball.

If Greinke and Wakefield swtiched teams, Greinke would almost be a lock cy young, right now. People would be saying that Tim Wakefield is done and should retire, not that he has been so consistent.

 

[hofautos]

If Greinke and Wakefield swtiched teams, Greinke would almost be a lock cy young, right now. People would be saying that Tim Wakefield is done and should retire, not that he has been so consistent.

Numbers can always be twisted and turned to fit someones point, just like I can say if Zach plays the next 8 games like the last 8, he will be 4 W and 12 L and a 4.0era. Zach had a good start, that is all. His last 8 games are not ALL-STAR caliber performance.

We will all just have to wait and see. Wakefield is in partly out of respect, and there is a vast amount of people, including myself, that believe it is the right thing to do. If Zach turns out to be what many people "think", he will have plenty of turns to make it to an AS game.

 

[scotty21690]

[quote="trademhigh":1vchnafl]
He probably has the most games started as a Red Sock. I don't know for a fact, but I'm sure if he doesn't have the most, he's right up there. And, 4.31 ERA is a lot worse than Greinke's and Haladay's.

Wakefield is 3rd on all time list with red sox.
Discounting Zach's phenominal "fluke" start, his last 8 starts are
2W 6L 3.98ERA.

With the Royals run support, Wakefield would definitely have a worse record. With the Red Sox run support, that 2 and 6 would look more like 6-2 or 7-1.

...because I'm bored waiting for the wife to get home...yay house hunting :|

Average Run Support For AL Starters

Wakefield 6.56
Halladay 5.86
Beckett 5.71
King Felix 5.51
Verlander 5.05
Edwin Jackson 4.03
Greinke 3.78

Just for kicks the NL
Lincecum 5.46
Marquis 5.19
Billingsley 5.09
Duke 4.56
Johnson 4.53
Lilly 4.40
Haren 4.47
Johan Santana 3.14

Look at the lineups pitchers in the NL have to face! As I posted the other day a huge % of guys like Lincecum and Cain starts come against teams in the basement as far as scoring runs. If Josh Beckett pitched against the Padres every 2-3 starts he would win 30 games. Wakefield might win 20, which he will probably do anyways, and both of their ERA's would be dramatically lower. You can't compare anything between the AL and NL. Completely different baseball.

If Greinke and Wakefield swtiched teams, Greinke would almost be a lock cy young, right now. People would be saying that Tim Wakefield is done and should retire, not that he has been so consistent.[/quote:1vchnafl]
Ha....funny Yankee fan, who has obviously watched ZERO of his starts this season.

He has 11 quality starts with two complete games...not to mention he carried this pitching staff in the beginning of the season while Lester and others were struggling. He and Beckett have been so consistant this year.


And don't tell me he is done, he can still pitch just like anyone else in this league. There are quite a few active pitchers in their 40s pitching effectively this season. Name another pitcher who has pitched 140+ innings averaging 10 wins his last 15 seasons??

 

[trademhigh]

[quote="hofautos":2xgz8h0y][quote="trademhigh":2xgz8h0y]
He probably has the most games started as a Red Sock. I don't know for a fact, but I'm sure if he doesn't have the most, he's right up there. And, 4.31 ERA is a lot worse than Greinke's and Haladay's.

Wakefield is 3rd on all time list with red sox.
Discounting Zach's phenominal "fluke" start, his last 8 starts are
2W 6L 3.98ERA.

With the Royals run support, Wakefield would definitely have a worse record. With the Red Sox run support, that 2 and 6 would look more like 6-2 or 7-1.

...because I'm bored waiting for the wife to get home...yay house hunting :|

Average Run Support For AL Starters

Wakefield 6.56
Halladay 5.86
Beckett 5.71
King Felix 5.51
Verlander 5.05
Edwin Jackson 4.03
Greinke 3.78

Just for kicks the NL
Lincecum 5.46
Marquis 5.19
Billingsley 5.09
Duke 4.56
Johnson 4.53
Lilly 4.40
Haren 4.47
Johan Santana 3.14

Look at the lineups pitchers in the NL have to face! As I posted the other day a huge % of guys like Lincecum and Cain starts come against teams in the basement as far as scoring runs. If Josh Beckett pitched against the Padres every 2-3 starts he would win 30 games. Wakefield might win 20, which he will probably do anyways, and both of their ERA's would be dramatically lower. You can't compare anything between the AL and NL. Completely different baseball.

If Greinke and Wakefield swtiched teams, Greinke would almost be a lock cy young, right now. People would be saying that Tim Wakefield is done and should retire, not that he has been so consistent.[/quote:2xgz8h0y]
Ha....funny Yankee fan, who has obviously watched ZERO of his starts this season.

He has 11 quality starts with two complete games...not to mention he carried this pitching staff in the beginning of the season while Lester and others were struggling. He and Beckett have been so consistant this year.


And don't tell me he is done, he can still pitch just like anyone else in this league. There are quite a few active pitchers in their 40s pitching effectively this season. Name another pitcher who has pitched 140+ innings averaging 10 wins his last 15 seasons??[/quote:2xgz8h0y]
What i stated isn't arguable. He would have a terrible record. He would have 3.78 runs a game of run support with a 4.31 ERA. Based on averages, he'd lose every game. I don't care if he has two complete games, if he gives up 4 runs while getting 3 runs from his team, he loses.

 

[Frow]

[quote="hofautos":g0vb3pzd][quote="trademhigh":g0vb3pzd]
He probably has the most games started as a Red Sock. I don't know for a fact, but I'm sure if he doesn't have the most, he's right up there. And, 4.31 ERA is a lot worse than Greinke's and Haladay's.

Wakefield is 3rd on all time list with red sox.
Discounting Zach's phenominal "fluke" start, his last 8 starts are
2W 6L 3.98ERA.

With the Royals run support, Wakefield would definitely have a worse record. With the Red Sox run support, that 2 and 6 would look more like 6-2 or 7-1.

...because I'm bored waiting for the wife to get home...yay house hunting :|

Average Run Support For AL Starters

Wakefield 6.56
Halladay 5.86
Beckett 5.71
King Felix 5.51
Verlander 5.05
Edwin Jackson 4.03
Greinke 3.78

Just for kicks the NL
Lincecum 5.46
Marquis 5.19
Billingsley 5.09
Duke 4.56
Johnson 4.53
Lilly 4.40
Haren 4.47
Johan Santana 3.14

Look at the lineups pitchers in the NL have to face! As I posted the other day a huge % of guys like Lincecum and Cain starts come against teams in the basement as far as scoring runs. If Josh Beckett pitched against the Padres every 2-3 starts he would win 30 games. Wakefield might win 20, which he will probably do anyways, and both of their ERA's would be dramatically lower. You can't compare anything between the AL and NL. Completely different baseball.

If Greinke and Wakefield swtiched teams, Greinke would almost be a lock cy young, right now. People would be saying that Tim Wakefield is done and should retire, not that he has been so consistent.[/quote:g0vb3pzd]
Ha....funny Yankee fan, who has obviously watched ZERO of his starts this season.

He has 11 quality starts with two complete games...not to mention he carried this pitching staff in the beginning of the season while Lester and others were struggling. He and Beckett have been so consistant this year.


And don't tell me he is done, he can still pitch just like anyone else in this league. There are quite a few active pitchers in their 40s pitching effectively this season. Name another pitcher who has pitched 140+ innings averaging 10 wins his last 15 seasons??[/quote:g0vb3pzd]


That's actually not going to be tough...as long as Suppan gets 5 more wins there is one off the top of my head.

Wakefield was really carrying the team when in the first 6 games the Bosox scored 10+ runs in half the games and 8 in another one.

 

[trademhigh]

If Greinke and Wakefield swtiched teams, Greinke would almost be a lock cy young, right now. People would be saying that Tim Wakefield is done and should retire, not that he has been so consistent.

Numbers can always be twisted and turned to fit someones point, just like I can say if Zach plays the next 8 games like the last 8, he will be 4 W and 12 L and a 4.0era. Zach had a good start, that is all. His last 8 games are not ALL-STAR caliber performance.

We will all just have to wait and see. Wakefield is in partly out of respect, and there is a vast amount of people, including myself, that believe it is the right thing to do. If Zach turns out to be what many people "think", he will have plenty of turns to make it to an AS game.

While what you said makes sense, it doesn't work in this sense. I'm looking into the past, you are looking into the future. Seeing the past is always in 20-20 vision, the future is unclear.

 

[hofautos]

What i stated isn't arguable. He would have a terrible record. He would have 3.78 runs a game of run support with a 4.31 ERA. Based on averages, he'd lose every game. I don't care if he has two complete games, if he gives up 4 runs while getting 3 runs from his team, he loses.

What you stated isn't arguable? Your statement doesn't hold ANY validity. IF IF IF...maybe IF he had to, he would pitch a different game. IF he was in another park? Very hypothetical, and really says nothing.

 

[trademhigh]

What i stated isn't arguable. He would have a terrible record. He would have 3.78 runs a game of run support with a 4.31 ERA. Based on averages, he'd lose every game. I don't care if he has two complete games, if he gives up 4 runs while getting 3 runs from his team, he loses.

What you stated isn't arguable? Your statement doesn't hold ANY validity. IF IF IF...maybe IF he had to, he would pitch a different game. IF he was in another park? Very hypothetical, and really says nothing.

I'm basically saying if they switched starts. If Wakefield started every game Greinke did, and vice versa, and each team/pitcher put up the same numbers. Wakefield's record would be way down.

 

[MallCopKJ]

What i stated isn't arguable. He would have a terrible record. He would have 3.78 runs a game of run support with a 4.31 ERA. Based on averages, he'd lose every game. I don't care if he has two complete games, if he gives up 4 runs while getting 3 runs from his team, he loses.

What you stated isn't arguable? Your statement doesn't hold ANY validity. IF IF IF...maybe IF he had to, he would pitch a different game. IF he was in another park? Very hypothetical, and really says nothing.

You know what they say...... IF the Queen had ..... shed be the King. OR IF your Aunt had ..... shed be your Uncle. Not sure what the penalty would be for finishing the sentance so I wont.

 

[scotty21690]

[quote="trademhigh":24ufwwzo][quote="hofautos":24ufwwzo][quote="trademhigh":24ufwwzo]
He probably has the most games started as a Red Sock. I don't know for a fact, but I'm sure if he doesn't have the most, he's right up there. And, 4.31 ERA is a lot worse than Greinke's and Haladay's.

Wakefield is 3rd on all time list with red sox.
Discounting Zach's phenominal "fluke" start, his last 8 starts are
2W 6L 3.98ERA.

With the Royals run support, Wakefield would definitely have a worse record. With the Red Sox run support, that 2 and 6 would look more like 6-2 or 7-1.

...because I'm bored waiting for the wife to get home...yay house hunting :|

Average Run Support For AL Starters

Wakefield 6.56
Halladay 5.86
Beckett 5.71
King Felix 5.51
Verlander 5.05
Edwin Jackson 4.03
Greinke 3.78

Just for kicks the NL
Lincecum 5.46
Marquis 5.19
Billingsley 5.09
Duke 4.56
Johnson 4.53
Lilly 4.40
Haren 4.47
Johan Santana 3.14

Look at the lineups pitchers in the NL have to face! As I posted the other day a huge % of guys like Lincecum and Cain starts come against teams in the basement as far as scoring runs. If Josh Beckett pitched against the Padres every 2-3 starts he would win 30 games. Wakefield might win 20, which he will probably do anyways, and both of their ERA's would be dramatically lower. You can't compare anything between the AL and NL. Completely different baseball.

If Greinke and Wakefield swtiched teams, Greinke would almost be a lock cy young, right now. People would be saying that Tim Wakefield is done and should retire, not that he has been so consistent.[/quote:24ufwwzo]
Ha....funny Yankee fan, who has obviously watched ZERO of his starts this season.

He has 11 quality starts with two complete games...not to mention he carried this pitching staff in the beginning of the season while Lester and others were struggling. He and Beckett have been so consistant this year.


And don't tell me he is done, he can still pitch just like anyone else in this league. There are quite a few active pitchers in their 40s pitching effectively this season. Name another pitcher who has pitched 140+ innings averaging 10 wins his last 15 seasons??[/quote:24ufwwzo]
What i stated isn't arguable. He would have a terrible record. He would have 3.78 runs a game of run support with a 4.31 ERA. Based on averages, he'd lose every game. I don't care if he has two complete games, if he gives up 4 runs while getting 3 runs from his team, he loses.[/quote:24ufwwzo]
Are you an idiot?

Maybe you missed the part where I said he had 11 Quality starts?

 

[GiantsSuperCollector]

Lincecum could have any of those guys run support and since it is an average, he would win every game w/o having his bullpen blowing it; which now it doesn't!

 

[Frow]

[quote="Frow":23gj5tiz][quote="trademhigh":23gj5tiz][quote="hofautos":23gj5tiz][quote="trademhigh":23gj5tiz]
He probably has the most games started as a Red Sock. I don't know for a fact, but I'm sure if he doesn't have the most, he's right up there. And, 4.31 ERA is a lot worse than Greinke's and Haladay's.

Wakefield is 3rd on all time list with red sox.
Discounting Zach's phenominal "fluke" start, his last 8 starts are
2W 6L 3.98ERA.

With the Royals run support, Wakefield would definitely have a worse record. With the Red Sox run support, that 2 and 6 would look more like 6-2 or 7-1.

...because I'm bored waiting for the wife to get home...yay house hunting :|

Average Run Support For AL Starters

Wakefield 6.56
Halladay 5.86
Beckett 5.71
King Felix 5.51
Verlander 5.05
Edwin Jackson 4.03
Greinke 3.78

Just for kicks the NL
Lincecum 5.46
Marquis 5.19
Billingsley 5.09
Duke 4.56
Johnson 4.53
Lilly 4.40
Haren 4.47
Johan Santana 3.14

Look at the lineups pitchers in the NL have to face! As I posted the other day a huge % of guys like Lincecum and Cain starts come against teams in the basement as far as scoring runs. If Josh Beckett pitched against the Padres every 2-3 starts he would win 30 games. Wakefield might win 20, which he will probably do anyways, and both of their ERA's would be dramatically lower. You can't compare anything between the AL and NL. Completely different baseball.

If Greinke and Wakefield swtiched teams, Greinke would almost be a lock cy young, right now. People would be saying that Tim Wakefield is done and should retire, not that he has been so consistent.[/quote:23gj5tiz]
Ha....funny Yankee fan, who has obviously watched ZERO of his starts this season.

He has 11 quality starts with two complete games...not to mention he carried this pitching staff in the beginning of the season while Lester and others were struggling. He and Beckett have been so consistant this year.


And don't tell me he is done, he can still pitch just like anyone else in this league. There are quite a few active pitchers in their 40s pitching effectively this season. Name another pitcher who has pitched 140+ innings averaging 10 wins his last 15 seasons??[/quote:23gj5tiz]
What i stated isn't arguable. He would have a terrible record. He would have 3.78 runs a game of run support with a 4.31 ERA. Based on averages, he'd lose every game. I don't care if he has two complete games, if he gives up 4 runs while getting 3 runs from his team, he loses.[/quote:23gj5tiz]
Are you an idiot?

Maybe you missed the part where I said he had 11 Quality starts?[/quote:23gj5tiz]

Calling him an idiot, especially when you have no point to make, isn't really needed.


Greinke has 16 QS, including 11 in a row, and still lost some of those games.

 

[MOFNY]

If Josh Beckett pitched against the Padres every 2-3 starts he would win 30 games. Wakefield might win 20, which he will probably do anyways, and both of their ERA's would be dramatically lower. You can't compare anything between the AL and NL. Completely different baseball.

Beckett did pitch in the NL, and he never had that kind of success. Who's to say Santana wouldn't win more games with more run support? Oh wait...everyone said he would when he went to the Mets in the weak NL. This whole "player A would win 10 more games in the NL" is pure speculation, and so far it's not working for the best pitcher in baseball.

 

[hofautos]

I am going to go out on a limb and say Halladay will eat Lincecum tonite :lol:

 

[MallCopKJ]

If Josh Beckett pitched against the Padres every 2-3 starts he would win 30 games. Wakefield might win 20, which he will probably do anyways, and both of their ERA's would be dramatically lower. You can't compare anything between the AL and NL. Completely different baseball.

Beckett did pitch in the NL, and he never had that kind of success. Who's to say Santana wouldn't win more games with more run support? Oh wait...everyone said he would when he went to the Mets in the weak NL. This whole "player A would win 10 more games in the NL" is pure speculation, and so far it's not working for the best pitcher in baseball.

How is it speculation when a guy who was 1-8 just threw a no hitter against a team a night after a guy had a no hitter in the 7th innings? Its not speculation to say the Yankees have 10x the lineup the Padres do.