Have you any of you pulled a 08 Chrome Draft Auto Retail

[predatorkj]

[quote="LLWesMan":41i8jjys][quote="plainwhitejerseys":41i8jjys][quote="predatorkj":41i8jjys][quote="boomo":41i8jjys][quote="plainwhitejerseys":41i8jjys]I've pulled a bunch. Posey Ref, Posey Blue, Beckham, Inoa (not the redemption), Flores, Flores X and I think Montero (unless I am remembering the name incorrectly).

im thinking maybe, just maybe, you may be guilding the lilly just a tad here

Not to get into it with him or even create a debate because honestly...I care little either way but if I recall a while back...I think he said he pack searches or at least condones it(which would lead one to think he does indeed pack search).This was on the old boards and I may be thinking about the wrong guy but if I am not...well there you go.Weighing packs can be an effective means.If I am mistaken...no hard feelings.I am not looking for an argument...just simply trying to recall what I remember.

I don't have any problem with pack searching. If there's someone who can find Bowman Draft Chrome Autos by weighing blasters, more power to them. I would imagine that the differences in the cut of the cards and the thickness of the chrome would make more weight difference than the ink of an auto, but if someone puts in the time and energy and money to be able to find autos that way, more power to them.

I just did it the brute force way and bought a TON of blasters. Can't argue with the results.

And what if they are tearing open packs?

Tearing open packs isn't searching, it's destruction of property.[/quote:41i8jjys]

It's one of the strategies of pack searchers.[/quote:41i8jjys]

No it's not. A pack searcher doesn't have to open a pack to know what's inside. The only people who open packs in the stores are people who are stealing cards.[/quote:41i8jjys]

I'm not sure how you can logically dispute this. There are people out there who go to stores like target and open up packs and look inside. Are they searching the packs? You better believe it. This isn't debatable, its a fact.[/quote:41i8jjys]

No, it's not a fact. Searching a pack requires skill. Any idiot can open a pack in a store. That's not searching, it's destruction of property and stealing.[/quote:41i8jjys]


I have to agree.People do do it but it is just some idiot.Pack searching is the ability to find hit cards without opening the blaster or pack the card comes in.

 

[predatorkj]

Nah...the stickers are supposed to throw the weight off just a tiny bit.

Chrome autos don't have stickers.

Yes they do.

Not for 2008.

None that I have seen but this is how I was told pack searchers find the autos of certain brands.Now...if there are guys out there who know how to find blasters or packs with non stickered auto cards...I can't tell you.There has to be some way though.Trust me.Ever go to a Target or Walmart and see an open box with one pack missing?It does happen.

 

[plainwhitejerseys]

None that I have seen but this is how I was told pack searchers find the autos of certain brands.Now...if there are guys out there who know how to find blasters or packs with non stickered auto cards...I can't tell you.There has to be some way though.Trust me.Ever go to a Target or Walmart and see an open box with one pack missing?It does happen.

I imagine that's more of a case of opening the box, searching the packs and buying (or stealing) the one with the jersey than weighing blasters until you find a jersey, then opening the blaster, finding the pack and buying (or stealing) it.

I've had long conversations with pack searchers I buy from on eBay because I find the concept fascinating. There's sort of an honor behind it. A good searcher would never damage or open packs. It's more of a thing where they try to see what they can find without damaging anything. They look down on people who damage product, and that's why most pack searchers are welcomed by store managers. They're steady, reliable customers who leave things in order and don't damage merchandise. There's one guy in Lansing who knows the managers of several stores, and they don't put out new product until he comes in. Nice little setup he has. And I know not to bother buying cards if I'm ever in Lansing.

 

[predatorkj]

None that I have seen but this is how I was told pack searchers find the autos of certain brands.Now...if there are guys out there who know how to find blasters or packs with non stickered auto cards...I can't tell you.There has to be some way though.Trust me.Ever go to a Target or Walmart and see an open box with one pack missing?It does happen.

I imagine that's more of a case of opening the box, searching the packs and buying (or stealing) the one with the jersey than weighing blasters until you find a jersey, then opening the blaster, finding the pack and buying (or stealing) it.

I've had long conversations with pack searchers I buy from on eBay because I find the concept fascinating. There's sort of an honor behind it. A good searcher would never damage or open packs. It's more of a thing where they try to see what they can find without damaging anything. They look down on people who damage product, and that's why most pack searchers are welcomed by store managers. They're steady, reliable customers who leave things in order and don't damage merchandise. There's one guy in Lansing who knows the managers of several stores, and they don't put out new product until he comes in. Nice little setup he has. And I know not to bother buying cards if I'm ever in Lansing.

Yeah but we aren't talking jersey cards here.That's a little easier right?

As far as your statement...the one thing I know is that if I go to a retail store here...I can expect the same.But I do think it sucks.Not only are the packs searched but they are damaged which is why I usually only buy blasters.I think you will find many folks out there who think searching is wrong, including myself, but the thing is...whats to stop it?The guy you speak of sounds like an ass.I'd have a problem with what he does and especially with the allowance the stores give him.I constantly buy retail.Is my money worth less than his?Not likely.Does he deserve cards I don't because he is able to feel for them?Its no different than those idiots who wait until midnight to go search for treasure hunts at walmart or variant toys.I just think everyone should have a fair shot.But...I also think the companies could do a better job at ensuring that.

That's why I don't get too ruffled.I know whats going on.I am not going to blow a gasket.But it does suck.I am relegated to a hobby box or a blaster which means I am spending about $20 at least every time because of searchers.Not even because I want a hit but I would like undamaged cards for my base set.Sadly too many searchers screw up even the base cards.

 

[plainwhitejerseys]

As far as your statement...the one thing I know is that if I go to a retail store here...I can expect the same.But I do think it sucks.Not only are the packs searched but they are damaged which is why I usually only buy blasters.I think you will find many folks out there who think searching is wrong, including myself, but the thing is...whats to stop it?The guy you speak of sounds like an ass.I'd have a problem with what he does and especially with the allowance the stores give him.I constantly buy retail.Is my money worth less than his?Not likely.Does he deserve cards I don't because he is able to feel for them?

He deserves them because he spent the time to search all the packs. He spent an hour going through everything, so he deserves the fruits of his labor. He got up and hit the stores first thing to get the good stuff, so he deserves what he finds. The person who just goes in when he feels like it and buys a couple random packs didn't work for anything. I'd rather the searcher get the hits than some random guy.

Actually, I'd rather *I* get all the hits, and screw all the searchers and all the random schlubs.

 

[Jeff D]

He deserves them because he spent the time to search all the packs. He spent an hour going through everything, so he deserves the fruits of his labor. He got up and hit the stores first thing to get the good stuff, so he deserves what he finds. The person who just goes in when he feels like it and buys a couple random packs didn't work for anything. I'd rather the searcher get the hits than some random guy.

Is this for real? This has to be the most circular argument I've ever heard. It's ok for pack searchers to take all the hits out of the box because they searched the packs?

"Working" for something doesn't make it right or justify the "fruits of their labor." Bernie Madoff worked pretty damn hard to screw people out of billions of dollars. I guess that makes it his hard earned money to keep. And this may come as a surprise to you, but the people who just "go in when they feel like it" and buy a couple random packs DID work for something. They worked to earn the money they spent on those packs (most likely at legitimate jobs, and not reselling searched packs on ebay).
And seriously you have to be kidding me when you said store managers like pack searchers because they're steady customers. How many hits in a box do they buy? 2 or 3? Wow...practically putting those managers kids through college singlehandedly.

These are some of the worst arguments I've ever heard justifying pack searching. You forgot to mention that the packs themselves like it because they enjoy getting felt up. Jeez.

 

[tramers]

no luck for me

 

[plainwhitejerseys]

Is this for real? This has to be the most circular argument I've ever heard.

There's nothing circular about it.

It's ok for pack searchers to take all the hits out of the box because they searched the packs?

Yes. There's nothing circular about it.

"Working" for something doesn't make it right or justify the "fruits of their labor." Bernie Madoff worked pretty damn hard to screw people out of billions of dollars. I guess that makes it his hard earned money to keep.

Apples and tractors. Bernie Madoff misled his investors and stole their money. Pack searchers neither mislead nor steal. They don't pretend like they aren't searching packs, and they don't steal the packs or hits.

And this may come as a surprise to you, but the people who just "go in when they feel like it" and buy a couple random packs DID work for something. They worked to earn the money they spent on those packs (most likely at legitimate jobs, and not reselling searched packs on ebay).

Pack searchers work to earn the money they spend on those packs. That's just a dumb argument on your part. What, you think stores give the packs to searchers for free? Get real. Pack searchers either sell the packs on ebay (a legitimate and lucrative job, btw) for the money, or they have jobs and search packs on the side. Either way, your angry, ignorant, bigoted argument is both stupid and factually incorrect.

And seriously you have to be kidding me when you said store managers like pack searchers because they're steady customers. How many hits in a box do they buy? 2 or 3? Wow...practically putting those managers kids through college singlehandedly.

Wow, so now you think that store managers get paid based on how many packs of baseball cards they sell? If it weren't for the rest of your points, that'd be the dumbest argument I've ever heard.

Take a look at the boxes next time you're at a Target or WalMart. Hot products sell, but look at the not-so-hot products. There's one pack missing. Guess who bought that pack. A store manager knows that a pack searcher is going to go there every week and spend money on packs. Regular schlubs like yourself, they don't know that. Why would a manager throw out a regular, reliable, trustworthy customer to suit you, a guy the manager doesn't see in there every week, who doesn't spend jack, and who could very well steal or damage the packs? At least the store manager knows the pack searcher is going to buy packs every week and not steal or damage anything (because if they stole or damaged something, why would they come back and risk getting in trouble?)?

Really what this all boils down to is that you have a ridiculous, naive, ignorant, idealistic, intellectually dishonest "issue" with a practice that is neither illegal nor unethical, and the whole thing is just a charade to keep you from having to admit that you're jealous that people have a skill that you don't possess, and they use said skill to pull the cards you wish you could pull.

The difference between us is that I don't have any problem with people doing honest, time-consuming work that I don't have the skill or gumption to do, and I don't feel the need to take some holier-than-thou attitude about it.

 

[BunchOBull]

Oddly enough, in most cases, retail chains don't supply there own sports card products anymore. Outside contractors do. This is because the pack searching and other less than honorable tactics (outright theft which is hard to prevent in retail sports cards) lead to damaged products and too much of a blow to the bottom line.

So, I would say store managers don't care, not because they have a steady flow of pack searching customers, but because it's not their bottom line anymore.

 

[predatorkj]

The last thing I want to do is get into a 20 page long discussion on the lack of ethics involved in pack searching but I'd figure since its been brought back out into the spotlight again I'd offer my take on it.

First of all I will say I think its a skill.Its not something that everyone can most likely do.The guy I mentioned before who searches Yughio packs with a scale used to do so by hand.And oddly enough he can find the foils.Now while Yughio and baseball cards are different the problem I have is still there.The dude takes the few packs that have the foils and now the actual kids(this dude is 35 mind you) who come in have no idea they are all gone and the owner of the shop doesn't tell them either.A lot of people would be mad about the owner not saying something but its no different than buying in a retail store.The manager is not going to come over and say "Hey...by the way...those packs are all searched.".

So my point on this is something all of you have to consider: Not everyone knows about pack searching.Most of your hobby dealers do and a good handful of regular guys.People on this board know about it also.But how many times in the last few months has someone come here and asked "Whats a hot pack?"."How do they know whats inside the pack?".I have run across quite a few people who buy retail and hobby but mostly retail and they had no idea.My cousin collects the crap out of football.He was asking me how I got all the jersey and auto'd cards because he never seems to pull any.I told him mostly at shops or on ebay.Where he lives he doesn't have a shop anywhere close at all so Target and Walmart is where he was buying most of his cards.He had never used ebay.

So I'd take it there are a lot of folks who don't know about it.Even if they do buy online.I have always said it but I think people on this board have the illusion that every other person involved in the hobby knows the same things we do.And that is not true.Any of you guys who think it is need to start making a poll for collectors at shows and shops to see just exactly what "they know" and stop acting like things we all know are common knowledge.I don't know how many people I have had to tell about fake patches, trimmed cards, or pack searching.I mean...if the general consensus is that you can't buy anything from retail and expect anything good why do people still buy it?But the reality is they do still buy it.And they don't all know.

Another problem I have with it is that the packs were meant to be packaged out so nobody knew what was in them.I know I know.The card companies could do something to deter people a lot more but that does not take away from the intention.You are not supposed to know whats in them.If you were then the card companies would start making all hits one per pack so they would never have an unsold pack.So the whole argument about whether its right or wrong has nothing to do with a skill.Its about someone doing something to tip the scales in their favor when that is not supposed to be what happens.Now you can say its merely using available resources.If you know how to do it who's to tell you you are wrong.But if you had x-ray vision and could see through scratch off tickets...do you honestly think the tickets were intended for people to see through to get the winners?They aren't.Neither are the card packs.Just because you can doesn't mean your supposed to.The idea that you should be able to because you don't feel its wrong doesn't mean its not.If my family was starving and I robbed a grocery store it doesn't make it right.Even if I had the means to do so.Just because you know how to do something and you can do it doesn't make it right.I would question someone's ethics who does these things.No matter how you argue it...it doesn't make it right.

Like I said before...I know they do it and I know my best chance is a blaster.I buy retail to build base sets.It saves me a lot of gas money and actual money from having to drive to a shop.The closest shop that carries singles to build sets is about 45 minutes to an hour away (one way mind you) and by the time you factor that on top of the higher pricing I have to pay for the cards...Its almost worth it for me to buy them at Walmart(which is five minutes away).I can't stop people from searching.I really don't care to either.I will throw out a snide remark if I see someone doing it but I won't press the issue and my anger comes a lot more from the damaged cards they leave behind..My thought is they were not made to do that.If they were then all the packs would be see through to give everyone a fair shot.That's why they aren't.So everyone who comes along has a fair shot.

I'd also agree that a pack searcher doesn't do jack for a retail outlets sales or a manager.I spend way more than any of the searchers do at walmart(at least the one I go to).They buy single packs.I buy blasters.Whether or not the manager sees me doing so doesn't mean jack.If they are that blind or stupid enough to believe that...well...that's probably why they work there in the first place.That argument is never going to go anywhere.

 

[Rudzud]

I pulled an Inoa auto from 08? Thats 08 right?

I dont do prospecting but atleast I pulled the live auto, not a redemption.

 

[plainwhitejerseys]

Another problem I have with it is that the packs were meant to be packaged out so nobody knew what was in them.I know I know.The card companies could do something to deter people a lot more but that does not take away from the intention.You are not supposed to know whats in them.If you were then the card companies would start making all hits one per pack so they would never have an unsold pack.So the whole argument about whether its right or wrong has nothing to do with a skill.Its about someone doing something to tip the scales in their favor when that is not supposed to be what happens.Now you can say its merely using available resources.If you know how to do it who's to tell you you are wrong.But if you had x-ray vision and could see through scratch off tickets...do you honestly think the tickets were intended for people to see through to get the winners?They aren't.Neither are the card packs.Just because you can doesn't mean your supposed to.

"Supposed to" in your argument only has to do with what the card companies intend. The card companies put cards in opaque packs because they don't intend for you to look through the wrappers and see the cards inside. What difference does it make what the card companies want?

That's like saying that you shouldn't use cat litter or rock salt to de-ice your driveway. The litter and salt companies don't intend for you to use their product that way. You should buy ONLY the expensive, specially-made driveway de-icing products. That's what you're supposed to do.

You aren't supposed to use a .03 dryer sheet tied to your belt loop to keep mosquitoes away. You're supposed to buy an $8 can of mosquito spray or a couple $15 citron candles or torches to keep them away.

There's nothing saying you're not supposed to look through wrappers. If you can see through them and want to, there's no reason not to.

The idea that you should be able to because you don't feel its wrong doesn't mean its not.

I've never seen anyone say that you should be able to search packs because they don't think it's wrong. That's just a dumb, circular statement.

It's okay to search packs because there's no legal or moral reason not to. As long as you aren't stealing or damaging anything, there's nothing legally or morally wrong with it.

If my family was starving and I robbed a grocery store it doesn't make it right.Even if I had the means to do so.Just because you know how to do something and you can do it doesn't make it right.

Nobody said that it does.

I would question someone's ethics who does these things.No matter how you argue it...it doesn't make it right.

Why would you question someone's ethics for searching packs? That's retarded. There's nothing unethical about it.

I'd also agree that a pack searcher doesn't do jack for a retail outlets sales or a manager.I spend way more than any of the searchers do at walmart(at least the one I go to).They buy single packs.I buy blasters.Whether or not the manager sees me doing so doesn't mean jack.If they are that blind or stupid enough to believe that...well...that's probably why they work there in the first place.That argument is never going to go anywhere.

It's the truth. And it makes a ton of sense. You don't turn away steady, reliable, trustworthy customers. Store managers would be fools to do so.

 

[predatorkj]

Another problem I have with it is that the packs were meant to be packaged out so nobody knew what was in them.I know I know.The card companies could do something to deter people a lot more but that does not take away from the intention.You are not supposed to know whats in them.If you were then the card companies would start making all hits one per pack so they would never have an unsold pack.So the whole argument about whether its right or wrong has nothing to do with a skill.Its about someone doing something to tip the scales in their favor when that is not supposed to be what happens.Now you can say its merely using available resources.If you know how to do it who's to tell you you are wrong.But if you had x-ray vision and could see through scratch off tickets...do you honestly think the tickets were intended for people to see through to get the winners?They aren't.Neither are the card packs.Just because you can doesn't mean your supposed to.

"Supposed to" in your argument only has to do with what the card companies intend. The card companies put cards in opaque packs because they don't intend for you to look through the wrappers and see the cards inside. What difference does it make what the card companies want?

That's like saying that you shouldn't use cat litter or rock salt to de-ice your driveway. The litter and salt companies don't intend for you to use their product that way. You should buy ONLY the expensive, specially-made driveway de-icing products. That's what you're supposed to do.

You aren't supposed to use a .03 dryer sheet tied to your belt loop to keep mosquitoes away. You're supposed to buy an $8 can of mosquito spray or a couple $15 citron candles or torches to keep them away.

There's nothing saying you're not supposed to look through wrappers. If you can see through them and want to, there's no reason not to.

Yes I understand that but how you use cat liter has nothing to do with what I am talking about(although I do understand the point you are making).I didn't say how you use cards.I said something about the way they are packaged out.The packaging is directly meant to stop people from knowing whats inside.Now...as you said there may be people who do not care but that is not merely for the card companies benefit.If they made all packs see through then there would be a ton of people who never pull a hit.These packs are meant to make it somewhat fair.Not just for the card companies but for you me, and the next guy.Otherwise, why would they do it? Now people don't want to follow it...that's fine.I just won't sit here and pretend to think its okay.

The idea that you should be able to because you don't feel its wrong doesn't mean its not.

I've never seen anyone say that you should be able to search packs because they don't think it's wrong. That's just a dumb, circular statement.

It's okay to search packs because there's no legal or moral reason not to. As long as you aren't stealing or damaging anything, there's nothing legally or morally wrong with it.
Again this all depends on the person who is doing the searching or who you are asking.I mean...I think its wrong as do countless others.Then there are probably a lot of people, yourself included, who do not think its wrong.As for it being legally wrong...maybe not.There are a lot of things that are wrong that they do not have laws for.Hell...I've seen people steal other people's girlfriends and you know what they say?They say" Well you weren't married to her yet" or, "You obviously weren't making her happy".Now...while that doesn't have anything to do with something like pack searching nor is it illegal, its a pretty wrong thing to do to someone.Of course there are people out there who do it all the time and wouldn't find anything wrong with it.So that is my point.There are many things they do not have a law for that many people see as wrong.If you know the reason the packs are covered(which you seem to understand) and you know why the companies do it and you know the intent behind it...just because there is no law does not make it morally right.I won't sit here and argue with you about your feelings.I am merely saying that there are two sides to that coin and there always will be.I just happen to be on the other side of it.

If my family was starving and I robbed a grocery store it doesn't make it right.Even if I had the means to do so.Just because you know how to do something and you can do it doesn't make it right.

Nobody said that it does.
That was just used to illustrate my point that just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.Granted robbing a store or something is illegal but a lot of people would feel if they were starving and so was there family, there is nothing morally wrong with doing it.

I would question someone's ethics who does these things.No matter how you argue it...it doesn't make it right.

Why would you question someone's ethics for searching packs? That's retarded. There's nothing unethical about it.
In your opinion there isn't and in my opinion there is.I'm not trying to argue that with you.

I'd also agree that a pack searcher doesn't do jack for a retail outlets sales or a manager.I spend way more than any of the searchers do at walmart(at least the one I go to).They buy single packs.I buy blasters.Whether or not the manager sees me doing so doesn't mean jack.If they are that blind or stupid enough to believe that...well...that's probably why they work there in the first place.That argument is never going to go anywhere.

It's the truth. And it makes a ton of sense. You don't turn away steady, reliable, trustworthy customers. Store managers would be fools to do so.

I understand your point but hey...come on...you are telling me you think that all the blasters and packs disappear off the shelves because of pack searchers?No.People buy them.All kinds of people at all different ages.One customer is not responsible for anything unless they buy a whole lot of product constantly.To say that a guy who goes in and cherry picks a few freshly opened boxes is a primo source of steady business can't be true.I think it has something more to do with the manager knowing the guy or just trying to help them.Same reason if you collect hotwheels you can sometimes ask the manager of the toy department to save all the treasure hunts out of the opened cases or the same way you can ask a manger to tell you when the newest shipment of McFarlane figures comes in so you can get the variant.In any case you are only buying one or two things.You may keep coming back for one or two things but in a few weeks others will do the same.It makes you no more of a reliable customer than anyone else.

 

[plainwhitejerseys]

Now...as you said there may be people who do not care but that is not merely for the card companies benefit.If they made all packs see through then there would be a ton of people who never pull a hit.These packs are meant to make it somewhat fair.Not just for the card companies but for you me, and the next guy.Otherwise, why would they do it? Now people don't want to follow it...that's fine.I just won't sit here and pretend to think its okay.

Who says they're meant to be fair? And you don't have to pretend it's okay. It's okay. There's nothing wrong with it.

Again this all depends on the person who is doing the searching or who you are asking.I mean...I think its wrong as do countless others.

And the majority of people don't think it's wrong.

Then there are probably a lot of people, yourself included, who do not think its wrong.As for it being legally wrong...maybe not.There are a lot of things that are wrong that they do not have laws for.Hell...I've seen people steal other people's girlfriends and you know what they say?They say" Well you weren't married to her yet" or, "You obviously weren't making her happy".Now...while that doesn't have anything to do with something like pack searching nor is it illegal, its a pretty wrong thing to do to someone.

That's a silly example, but it's also false. Seven years ago, I stole a girl away from a friend of mine. He wasn't treating her well, and I thought she was too good for him, so I stole her away. She was happy with me and three weeks ago, we got married. He moved on and found another girl and he's happily married. Everyone in that situation is happier now, but by your argument, what I did was wrong.

Of course there are people out there who do it all the time and wouldn't find anything wrong with it.So that is my point.There are many things they do not have a law for that many people see as wrong.If you know the reason the packs are covered(which you seem to understand) and you know why the companies do it and you know the intent behind it...

Nobody cares what the manufacturer's intent is. That makes absolutely NO difference to anything at all. I've already come up with several analogies that prove my point.

just because there is no law does not make it morally right.

I never said it did. I said it is neither illegal nor unethical. There is nothing immoral about searching packs.

In your opinion there isn't and in my opinion there is.I'm not trying to argue that with you.

This isn't a matter of opinion. It's a matter of ethics. There is nothing ethically wrong with searching packs. That's not an opinion.

I understand your point but hey...come on...you are telling me you think that all the blasters and packs disappear off the shelves because of pack searchers?No.People buy them.All kinds of people at all different ages.One customer is not responsible for anything unless they buy a whole lot of product constantly.To say that a guy who goes in and cherry picks a few freshly opened boxes is a primo source of steady business can't be true.

It is. A guy who goes into a store every week and cherry picks a dozen packs is definitely a good source of steady business. That's a guy who goes into the store every week and spends money. Stores kill for that type of customer. Even if all he buys is cards, that's still a reliable weekly sale that the store wouldn't otherwise have.

I think it has something more to do with the manager knowing the guy or just trying to help them.Same reason if you collect hotwheels you can sometimes ask the manager of the toy department to save all the treasure hunts out of the opened cases or the same way you can ask a manger to tell you when the newest shipment of McFarlane figures comes in so you can get the variant.In any case you are only buying one or two things.You may keep coming back for one or two things but in a few weeks others will do the same.It makes you no more of a reliable customer than anyone else.

Sure it does. It makes you a reliable customer. The manager knows you're going to come in every week and spend money. Why do stores print sale ads? To get people into the store. Study business, and one of the first things you will learn is the concept of loss leaders. A manager who kicks a pack searcher out of the store is not only losing his most reliable card customer, but he's also turning off a guy who comes in and spends money on a weekly basis. That pack searcher, if he's kicked out of that store, where is he going to go to buy his diapers, his Excedrin and his cargo shorts? If you kick him out of the store, he's not going to come back later to buy a couple DVDs, he's going to shop somewhere else. Stores bend over backwards to get people into stores, the LAST thing they want to do is sour a solid relationship. They have ZERO reason to kick pack searchers out of stores and EVERY reason to allow them to continue.

 

[predatorkj]

Now...as you said there may be people who do not care but that is not merely for the card companies benefit.If they made all packs see through then there would be a ton of people who never pull a hit.These packs are meant to make it somewhat fair.Not just for the card companies but for you me, and the next guy.Otherwise, why would they do it? Now people don't want to follow it...that's fine.I just won't sit here and pretend to think its okay.

Who says they're meant to be fair? And you don't have to pretend it's okay. It's okay. There's nothing wrong with it.

So you're telling me there is no reason for the cards to be in packs?I mean...if they are in packs that right there pretty much say the intent is to provide cards without knowing what cards you are getting.I have a hard time understanding the concept of why they are in packs and boxes if you feel you should already know what you are getting(or in this case at least that you are getting the hits).You can say life or anything for that matter is not meant to be fair but if you are saying its not fair then you are admitting a flaw or something that is a disadvantage to one thing and an advantage to another.Searching packs is not a natural thing.Buying packs without knowing what exact cards are in them is.I can't understand this thinking.I mean...basically its saying its okay to bend morals since there is nothing in place, law wise or policy wise, to do whatever you want.It would be the same thing with scratch off tickets.You could know how to see which ones are winners but that isn't fair either.A lot of people wouldn't know how to and you would have all the advantage.Is it right?Are there any rules against it or laws?I am not sure exactly how you feel about the lottery or the scratch off stuff but if you believe it wouldn't be right in that case then it wouldn't be right for pack searching either.

Even something as simple as a mystery grab bag they give out at the stadiums sometimes.You buy a grab bag for $50 and the money goes to charity.Each bag contains a different kind of hat and a few other goodies along with an autographed ball.Now say some of them didn't come with a ball.Would you condone going around and cherry picking all the ones with balls?The intent was to not know what you're getting.Same with the packs.

Again this all depends on the person who is doing the searching or who you are asking.I mean...I think its wrong as do countless others.

And the majority of people don't think it's wrong.

Do a poll or ask around.I am sure you will find plenty of people that do think its wrong.Basically the only people who don't think its wrong is either pack searchers or a small handful of people like yourself.I would bet my last dollar that's a small minority and not the majority.You can always start a poll..

Then there are probably a lot of people, yourself included, who do not think its wrong.As for it being legally wrong...maybe not.There are a lot of things that are wrong that they do not have laws for.Hell...I've seen people steal other people's girlfriends and you know what they say?They say" Well you weren't married to her yet" or, "You obviously weren't making her happy".Now...while that doesn't have anything to do with something like pack searching nor is it illegal, its a pretty wrong thing to do to someone.

That's a silly example, but it's also false. Seven years ago, I stole a girl away from a friend of mine. He wasn't treating her well, and I thought she was too good for him, so I stole her away. She was happy with me and three weeks ago, we got married. He moved on and found another girl and he's happily married. Everyone in that situation is happier now, but by your argument, what I did was wrong.

I wouldn't tell too many guys that in person .People don't like that kind of stuff.Glad to see your friend didn't react like most normal males would.I figure if a girl wants to leave...cool beans.Better that way.But to try to come in and take her away would piss just about anybody off and create a lot of problems for you.Its happened to my cousin a few times and the girl didn't have a good relationship with the next guy either.So it doesn't work out better for anyone all the time and no matter how it works out...unless you have some friends who are the most passive people in the world...you'll lose them.Not trying to sound rude but you sure have an odd way of viewing things.

Of course there are people out there who do it all the time and wouldn't find anything wrong with it.So that is my point.There are many things they do not have a law for that many people see as wrong.If you know the reason the packs are covered(which you seem to understand) and you know why the companies do it and you know the intent behind it...

Nobody cares what the manufacturer's intent is. That makes absolutely NO difference to anything at all. I've already come up with several analogies that prove my point.

Okay...well maybe you and pack searchers don't but the rest of the hobby does.I mean if nobody cares what the manufactures intent is...why even searching the packs.Why not just open them.If the manager comes over and asks why you are destroying the packs just tell them you don't care if they were meant to be unopened.Same thing though I am sure you won't agree.

just because there is no law does not make it morally right.

I never said it did. I said it is neither illegal nor unethical. There is nothing immoral about searching packs.

In your opinion there isn't and in my opinion there is.I'm not trying to argue that with you.

This isn't a matter of opinion. It's a matter of ethics. There is nothing ethically wrong with searching packs. That's not an opinion.

To you.Its still an opinion like it or not.You can't prove something is ethical or not.Ethics are a matter of opinion.

I understand your point but hey...come on...you are telling me you think that all the blasters and packs disappear off the shelves because of pack searchers?No.People buy them.All kinds of people at all different ages.One customer is not responsible for anything unless they buy a whole lot of product constantly.To say that a guy who goes in and cherry picks a few freshly opened boxes is a primo source of steady business can't be true.

It is. A guy who goes into a store every week and cherry picks a dozen packs is definitely a good source of steady business. That's a guy who goes into the store every week and spends money. Stores kill for that type of customer. Even if all he buys is cards, that's still a reliable weekly sale that the store wouldn't otherwise have.

I think it has something more to do with the manager knowing the guy or just trying to help them.Same reason if you collect hotwheels you can sometimes ask the manager of the toy department to save all the treasure hunts out of the opened cases or the same way you can ask a manger to tell you when the newest shipment of McFarlane figures comes in so you can get the variant.In any case you are only buying one or two things.You may keep coming back for one or two things but in a few weeks others will do the same.It makes you no more of a reliable customer than anyone else.

Sure it does. It makes you a reliable customer. The manager knows you're going to come in every week and spend money. Why do stores print sale ads? To get people into the store. Study business, and one of the first things you will learn is the concept of loss leaders. A manager who kicks a pack searcher out of the store is not only losing his most reliable card customer, but he's also turning off a guy who comes in and spends money on a weekly basis. That pack searcher, if he's kicked out of that store, where is he going to go to buy his diapers, his Excedrin and his cargo shorts? If you kick him out of the store, he's not going to come back later to buy a couple DVDs, he's going to shop somewhere else. Stores bend over backwards to get people into stores, the LAST thing they want to do is sour a solid relationship. They have ZERO reason to kick pack searchers out of stores and EVERY reason to allow them to continue.

I don't understand how this refutes anything I wrote.I never said anything about chasing them out of the store.But if you know business then you probably know that if I knew if a manger was doing this I wouldn't shop there.For anything.So without doing it he can keep two customers.But doing it he loses one.That doesn't make sense.

I am not trying to change your mind as it seems you already have it made up.But I would imagine there are a lot of people who don't agree with it.You seem to be of the mindset that if there is no written law about things...you can twist the morals and ethics of something to suit your convienence.If that is how you feel then that's okay but don't be fooled that there is countless others who would be okay with it.

Like I said...I don't even bother with the whole pack searching thing most of the time because I figure there are only two sides of it and both are convinced they are right.Some think its okay and some do not.I have never heard a good argument for it other than personal gain and screwing someone else out of something or getting a step up or an advantage.I don't agree with it.But...on the other hand I am sure the people who do agree with doing it feel they are justified.

 

[plainwhitejerseys]

So you're telling me there is no reason for the cards to be in packs?

No, I'm not saying that at all.

I mean...if they are in packs that right there pretty much say the intent is to provide cards without knowing what cards you are getting.I have a hard time understanding the concept of why they are in packs and boxes if you feel you should already know what you are getting

I'm saying that the manufacturer's intent is completely irrelevant.

Let me make another analogy for you and we'll see if this helps you understand... I'm sure you've seen lowrider cars or cars with tinted windows and loud stereo systems, right? The manufacturer didn't intend for you to lower your car, put aftermarket rims on, tint the windows and put a loud radio in the car. The manufacturer intended for you to drive the car as-is. By your argument, it's immoral to alter your vehicle because it goes against what the manufacturer intended. I mean, you shouldn't paint a car with blue candy paint because the car came from the factory with yellow paint and that's what the manufacturer intended.

That's absolutely ridiculous. The manufacturer's intent is completely irrelevant. I don't care if Toyota wants me to keep my FJ maroon. If I want to paint it green, I'm going to paint it green, and ethics never enters the equation.

You can say life or anything for that matter is not meant to be fair but if you are saying its not fair then you are admitting a flaw or something that is a disadvantage to one thing and an advantage to another.

Nope. It's fair and it's an advantage to one person and not another. The people with the skill and the time to use that skill get the good stuff. The people who lack the skill don't. That's completely fair.

I mean, smart people go to better colleges than stupid people. By your argument, it's unethical for better students to go to better schools. All people should have an equal chance at going to the best schools. That's ridiculous. If you have the nood and the work ethic to get good grades, you deserve to get into a better school than someone who doesn't. Same thing with pack searching.

Searching packs is not a natural thing.Buying packs without knowing what exact cards are in them is.

Searching packs is as natural as can be. I see kids in stores all the time looking through the front of rack packs trying to find Curtis Granderson cards. Kids. It's the same as the barnyard test. Kids haven't been brainwashed by a hobby media that tells people not to search packs out of jealousy.

When you want a new pair of shorts, do you just buy the first pair on the rack? No, you try them on to find the one that fits you best. At the very least, you try to find your size. When you want a banana, do you just grab the stiff green ones or the soft black ones? No, you rifle through them trying to find the ones that have the ripeness you're looking for. Same thing with cards.

I mean...basically its saying its okay to bend morals since there is nothing in place, law wise or policy wise, to do whatever you want.

Nope. It's saying that there are no morals to be bent because there's nothing immoral about pack searching.

It would be the same thing with scratch off tickets.You could know how to see which ones are winners but that isn't fair either.
A lot of people wouldn't know how to and you would have all the advantage.Is it right?

Of course it is. Assuming you're not damaging the tickets, if you know how to tell which ones are winners without scratching them, there's nothing wrong with buying those. Same thing with card counting at a casino.

Even something as simple as a mystery grab bag they give out at the stadiums sometimes.You buy a grab bag for $50 and the money goes to charity.Each bag contains a different kind of hat and a few other goodies along with an autographed ball.Now say some of them didn't come with a ball.Would you condone going around and cherry picking all the ones with balls?

Definitely. You'd be stupid not to.

The intent was to not know what you're getting.

Ford doesn't intend for you to paint your car green. What difference does that make?

Do a poll or ask around.I am sure you will find plenty of people that do think its wrong.Basically the only people who don't think its wrong is either pack searchers or a small handful of people like yourself.I would bet my last dollar that's a small minority and not the majority.You can always start a poll..

Self-selecting sample. You're talking about brainwashed, jealous hobby people.

I said the majority of people are fine with it and I'm right. The majority of people are fine with it. The majority of collectors on card messageboards probably aren't (though there are a lot more people who SAY they're against it than people who are actually against it, and I'd be the majority of people who claim to be against it have done it if they aren't actively doing it on a regular basis).

I wouldn't tell too many guys that in person .People don't like that kind of stuff.Glad to see your friend didn't react like most normal males would.I figure if a girl wants to leave...cool beans.Better that way.But to try to come in and take her away would piss just about anybody off and create a lot of problems for you.Its happened to my cousin a few times and the girl didn't have a good relationship with the next guy either.So it doesn't work out better for anyone all the time and no matter how it works out...unless you have some friends who are the most passive people in the world...you'll lose them.

My wife means more to me than any of my friends do. I didn't lose a friend in this situation, but if I had, I'd be perfectly fine with it. I'd never regret it for a second. I'd never give up a shot at lifetime happiness to suit a friend.

Not trying to sound rude but you sure have an odd way of viewing things.

It's called pragmatism and reason.

I mean if nobody cares what the manufactures intent is...why even searching the packs.Why not just open them.If the manager comes over and asks why you are destroying the packs just tell them you don't care if they were meant to be unopened.Same thing though I am sure you won't agree.

It's not the same thing at all. Pack searching is using a skill to get a special card without opening the packs. Opening the packs in the store is destruction of property and it's illegal.

To you.Its still an opinion like it or not.You can't prove something is ethical or not.Ethics are a matter of opinion.

It's called normative ethics. When you get to college, take an ethics course. The source of our ethical system is debated, but our ethical system really isn't. It's not a matter of opinion, our ethical mores have been pretty firmly established. Ethics are inter-subjectively determined. They vary from culture to culture, but they are rigid within each culture.

I don't understand how this refutes anything I wrote.I never said anything about chasing them out of the store.But if you know business then you probably know that if I knew if a manger was doing this I wouldn't shop there.For anything.So without doing it he can keep two customers.But doing it he loses one.That doesn't make sense.

1. If he chases a searcher out and you choose to shop there, he loses one customer and gains one. He doesn't gain two.
2. Why would a manager chase out a known, reliable customer to suit you, a guy the manager doesn't know, a guy the manager can't assume with any degree of certainty would ever return, and certainly couldn't assume would spend more on a more regular basis than the reliable, trustworthy customer he's chasing away.

You seem to be of the mindset that if there is no written law about things...you can twist the morals and ethics of something to suit your convienence.

Not at all. I don't want to sound self-righteous, but I am probably more tightly bound by ethics than anyone you know. There's just nothing unethical about searching packs.

If that is how you feel then that's okay but don't be fooled that there is countless others who would be okay with it.

I'm not fooled. There are countless others who are okay with it. Hot pack sellers wouldn't make a ton of money if people weren't okay with it.

 

[predatorkj]

Okay...I'm not quoting all of that. :lol:

I will just respond in order.

If you are supposed to be able to know what cards are in packs then why would they be for sale in packs?That is what I am asking you.Why wouldn't all cards just be sold singly?You're telling me there is nothing wrong with searching and you are saying its perfectly normal and actually the best thing to do and I am asking you if this is so, why do they even distribute cards in packs?Wouldn't they just sell them all as singles?

Your analogy with the cars really can't be relevant here.That's what you do with something after you purchase it.The best thing it could relate to is...swapping a single color GU out for a multi-color patch.Altering something you already own.There are few other products you can equate the circumstance to.Lottery scratch offs or something like that is about it.What you do with something after you buy it is up to you.It has nothing to do with what you do before the product is purchased.Its apples to watermelons...

You can't equate getting into a better college than a person who doesn't work as hard to this either because its still not an even analogy.College and a lot of things in life are meant to cater to the best.The better you are at whatever...the better choices you will have.But something like a sealed pack or even a scratch off ticket is supposed to be so any person does have the same fair chance.Do you think anyone would buy any scratch off tickets if they had people going around doing the same thing that pack searchers do?Uh...no...that would be a dead industry.This is one of those times when hard work and dedication don't pay off.Where they are irrelevant.Or should be anyways.

If something is in a clear see through wrapper...no matter the product... its meant for you to know or at least get a feel for what you are buying.As for what I select when I shop for clothes or food...well...you get the picture.Cards aren't meant for you to get to select which cards you get.A lot of people would like them to be but that's just not how it is.So...people do what they can to get what they want.That's about how I see it.Banks aren't meant to rob but people do it anyways to get what they desire.In both instances...a roadblock or hurdle is put in someone's way from having what they want so they find a way around it.

Whether pack searching is moral or not is an opinion.Webster's dictionary defines moral:" Of or pertaining to conduct or character from the point of right and wrong; Standards of right and wrong."

Ethics is defined as :"The system of moral values; The principal of right or good conduct."

Two people may have two very different ideas of what is wrong or right and every single day I am alive I see more and more people thinking something is okay and a decent thing to do when , maybe two or three years ago, it was something they would not have agreed with.Now we can get into a 15 page debate over the evolution of morals or ethics if you want but I don't think I feel like it and I also don't think anyone could agree on anything.Basically what I think is right most likely wouldn't gel with half the board and I would imagine its that way for every member here.We all believe what we want I suppose.But it is what we believe.Its not a provable fact.If I say a tattoo is a bad thing to get there might be a million people that don't agree.Its all a matter of opinion.What I was getting at is people seem these days to try and justify things with even crazier and crazier reasons and logic.Not necessarily pack searching but if you really step back and see what people do and the reasons they do them ,for everything that happens in the world,it becomes laughable.People feel the need to have satisfaction and they tell themselves all kinds of crazy things to justify it.

I won't go on much further with the scratch off thing.Its just an analogy.But I also wouldn't be dumb enough to try to count cards at a casino.The movie 21 aside...people who do that kind of stuff on a regular basis most likely disappear once they get caught.

I am not sure what to say about the grab bag thing.What would you do if they told you not to search for the bags with the balls?Would you tell them"What's stopping me or I don't care what the intent of the grab bag is."?They would probably tell you to take the one you are given and leave and if you decided that wasn't good enough...they'd probably have security escort you out.I mean...I don't have to agree with you about everything but I have a very hard time seeing a grown man doing or saying something like this in public.You might do it anyways but I just can't see it going over well.I can't see anyone thinking it was okay and maybe you are just one of those folks that doesn't care what people think.That's cool.There is a fine line between ignoring what people say about or to you that is untrue or just negative or trash talking and then there is another point where you need to stop and say "Am I seeing things wrong?".I have known plenty of people very close to me who do all kinds of dumb and crazy things with bad justification for doing them and then they get all bent out of shape when anyone says anything negative to them or about them but they never stop and realize maybe they are right.Maybe what they are saying has merit.

I don't consider myself brainwashed and if you were somehow given a platform to speak to the entire collecting public or anyone who has ever purchased cards for their kids or whatever,I have a very hard time believing everyone would be okay with it.In fact...it would probably kill retail sales.Then the pack searchers would be a highly sought commodity at stores because they would probably be the ONLY people buying retail (aside from people like me who are only looking to pick up stuff to make starter sets from or just like busting blasters)if everyone knew about it.This all goes back to the fact that not as many people know about pack searching as people on this board think.

And you would also have a hard time proving the majority are fine with it.Not until you did a public poll that had enough attention to get serious and widespread votes.Saying you are right about knowing that is all wrong.

You may be right about people who say they are against it and really aren't but hey...who knows.


Your wife notwithstanding...a lot of times you are not necessarily going to marry a girl in that situation.I also have a hard time believing you knew from that moment on you would be happy with her for the rest of your life.Maybe you did maybe you didn't.But in any case...who knows.And a good percentage of the time I think you will find that your friends won't stick around either.Maybe you don't care and that's all your deal.Your call.But it doesn't change the point I made where it would cause a rift.If it does cause a rift(which I have never seen it not cause one) then wouldn't you hazard a guess there was a moral issue with it?Its rude and disrespectful in a lot of people's eyes.

My cousin I mentioned, Chris, won't have a thing to do with any of the people we all used to hang out with.It wasn't that he was going to marry the girlfriends he had taken away from him.I mean...obviously...would you want to marry a girl like that in the first place?Some do some don't but its my logic that if they let themselves be taken away from someone, who's to say they won't do the same to you.But it was the fact that he had someone calling themselves a friend and being nice to him and acting like a friend and in the end they turn around and stab him in the back.A relationship should not end that way.If the couple is not happy...like I said...let it end on its own terms.To have a hand in it or cause it is out of line in most people's eyes.

Say you are as nice as you can be to your wife and give her everything you possibly can.What if some really rich guy(just an example so follow me here and don't say she wouldn't care because its not really relevant) who had a mansion and all the money in the world(imagine Wossa :lol: )wanted to pry her away from you.And he did.Not because you didn't try your best but because obviously he had something to offer you didn't.And even though she was your wife...he came in and broke it up for his benefit.Would you be okay with that?Sure you might say it was for the better because if she wasn't happy with you then so be it but see...the point is, she might have been happy with you and the unhappiness that she started feeling was false and instilled in her head by her new suitor.It happens all the time.It may even be just something as simple as telling her he loved her each day or whatever.You know how women enjoy the details.It doesn't mean though, that he would continue to do it ,or that he even cared for her like you did.The point is...he took her away and it could happen to any person on earth.Its not even something you can always control.Temptation at its best.

Hey...I've had a few people try it.I just made it abundantly clear that not only would it be met with aggression but that it wasn't about trust with my wife.It was about the fact that at any point and time, if it did occur, it would be seen as a sign of great disrespect.Great disrespect.Most people...don't want to deal with that kind of wrath.That kind of trouble.

One other point as well is that while we always try to look out for ourselves and our best interests...my faith leads me to be a little less self serving and more gracious towards others.Now of course not everyone believes what I do but I feel sometimes its better not to always be thinking about yourself.Not to con other people out of things for your benefit.That kind of stuff comes back to you.In spades normally.I don't need that.


As far as opening the packs...if you are not going to abide by the manufacture's intent which I think is safe to say they meant them to be a mystery and for you not to be able to tell what cards are in each pack...other than property damage...what's morally wrong with opening them and seeing whats in them?

I don't care what they tell you in college...you can't prove ethics or morals based on their own definitions.Now if you want to call Webster and argue with them you can.But even if you are saying ethics are decided by a society...its still that society's opinion of what is ethical.Its still an opinion.A thought.Any comment or thought ever made that was not supported by an actual provable fact is an opinion or theory.Proof of that is the continued Gay rights dilemma and stem cell research and on and on.People have differing "opinions" on what is right or ethical.None of it provable.


As far as the manager thing...
I said if a manger doesn't chase a searcher out of a store.That's what I said.If he doesn't chase them away but he doesn't do anything special to allow them to search the boxes first...its still a reasonable conclusion that they will still search packs and shop there as well.But if a normal collector finds out that this is going on and he has a hunch that the store across the street does not allow this...he may just as well go over there and buy his cards and do his shopping.So he could lose a customer.Trust me...a manager himself may stand to gain something(maybe a new friend or even some extra cash in his pocket if the searcher feels like paying to be be the first one to get to the boxes) personally but the store as a whole does not.There are normally only about 5 or 6 boxes out at one time no matter what season it is and its inconceivable that they the money made from this does anything one way or the other for the store.Hell...they make more money off of the uneducated collectors that come in and buy the rest of the packs.Not the few the searcher buys.You don't think the uneducated collectors do their shopping there too?What your saying is some guy who buys one pack a box is more important to manager than the people who buy the rest of the box.Mathmatically...that makes no sense whatsoever.Even if the guys who purchased the rest of the packs don't shop their normally for cards...the searcher still has to buy a hell of a lot of packs to prove more worthwhile than the other guys.


You may be tightly bound by ethics but they are not the same as mine.If you had the same ethics as I do you would feel that people who justify doing things and thinking a certain way by what my ethics show as flawed logic and reasoning to suit ones desires and not whats good or moral, are wrong.And that if the process is continued and repeated throughout life...it will lead to greater and greater misdeeds not only for you but others around you as people tend to follow example.That is how I think.From what I have gathered...that is not how you do.I could be wrong.I am only going on what you say.Your ethics seem to point to self gratification and desire and achieving things no matter the cost to others.Mine do not.I am sure your logic and thinking can justify this.Mine can't.

 

[plainwhitejerseys]

If you are supposed to be able to know what cards are in packs then why would they be for sale in packs?That is what I am asking you.Why wouldn't all cards just be sold singly?You're telling me there is nothing wrong with searching and you are saying its perfectly normal and actually the best thing to do and I am asking you if this is so, why do they even distribute cards in packs?Wouldn't they just sell them all as singles?

Your argument doesn't make any sense at all. I'd be fine refuting your argument, but you're just kind of babbling about singles or whatever.

Your analogy with the cars really can't be relevant here.That's what you do with something after you purchase it.The best thing it could relate to is...swapping a single color GU out for a multi-color patch.Altering something you already own.There are few other products you can equate the circumstance to.Lottery scratch offs or something like that is about it.What you do with something after you buy it is up to you.It has nothing to do with what you do before the product is purchased.Its apples to watermelons...

My point went waaaaay over your head then.

My analogy was spot on. The part you failed to grasp is the irrelevance of manufacturer intent. Your argument is that pack searching is wrong because the manufacturer didn't intend for you to do it. My analogy illustrated the flaw in your "logic" and pointed out several examples of how people do things that contradict manufacturer intent, and nobody ever thinks twice about it because what the manufacturer intends has absolutely nothing to do with ethics.

You can't equate getting into a better college than a person who doesn't work as hard to this either because its still not an even analogy.College and a lot of things in life are meant to cater to the best.The better you are at whatever...the better choices you will have.But something like a sealed pack or even a scratch off ticket is supposed to be so any person does have the same fair chance.

Says who?

If something is in a clear see through wrapper...no matter the product... its meant for you to know or at least get a feel for what you are buying.

Says who?

As for what I select when I shop for clothes or food...well...you get the picture.Cards aren't meant for you to get to select which cards you get.

Says who?

If you can tell which pack has the insert, who says the manufacturer didn't want you to be able to find it?

A lot of people would like them to be but that's just not how it is.So...people do what they can to get what they want.That's about how I see it.Banks aren't meant to rob but people do it anyways to get what they desire.In both instances...a roadblock or hurdle is put in someone's way from having what they want so they find a way around it.

If someone can find a way around that roadblock without violating the law or doing something immoral, more power to them.

Whether pack searching is moral or not is an opinion.Webster's dictionary defines moral:" Of or pertaining to conduct or character from the point of right and wrong; Standards of right and wrong."

Ethics is defined as :"The system of moral values; The principal of right or good conduct."

Again, take an ethics class in college.

I'm sorry, but I'm an educated man who has taken grad school classes in ethics (my grad advisor specialized in ethics and forced us to take more ethics courses than I would have ever wanted to take - I found the whole thing boring, but I learned it) arguing with a guy who clearly has no concept of what ethics are. No offense. I don't know the first thing about cricket or engine repair.

Two people may have two very different ideas of what is wrong or right and every single day I am alive I see more and more people thinking something is okay and a decent thing to do when , maybe two or three years ago, it was something they would not have agreed with.Now we can get into a 15 page debate over the evolution of morals or ethics if you want but I don't think I feel like it and I also don't think anyone could agree on anything.Basically what I think is right most likely wouldn't gel with half the board and I would imagine its that way for every member here.We all believe what we want I suppose.But it is what we believe.Its not a provable fact.If I say a tattoo is a bad thing to get there might be a million people that don't agree.

You're confusing value judgments with ethics.

Its all a matter of opinion.What I was getting at is people seem these days to try and justify things with even crazier and crazier reasons and logic.

If it's crazy, it's not logical. You can't "justify" something with "crazy logic". There's no such thing.

That's like calling someone a "liberal conservative" or a "right-handed southpaw".

I won't go on much further with the scratch off thing.Its just an analogy.But I also wouldn't be dumb enough to try to count cards at a casino.The movie 21 aside...people who do that kind of stuff on a regular basis most likely disappear once they get caught.

If you believe that, you watch too many movies. People count cards every single day without getting caught. People get caught every single day and go back to that same casino the next day.

I am not sure what to say about the grab bag thing.What would you do if they told you not to search for the bags with the balls?

You'd have to stop. If you kept going, they would call security, you'd get thrown out of the park, and if you spoke up, you'd be arrested for disorderly conduct.

I don't have to agree with you about everything but I have a very hard time seeing a grown man doing or saying something like this in public.

If you think the average grown man wouldn't dig through a box of grab bags for one with an autographed ball, I don't know what to tell you. That's naive.

I don't consider myself brainwashed and if you were somehow given a platform to speak to the entire collecting public or anyone who has ever purchased cards for their kids or whatever,I have a very hard time believing everyone would be okay with it.

The majority would. The majority would probably think it's clever. In my experience, that has been the case.

In fact...it would probably kill retail sales.

You're assuming that the average person who buys packs knows what insert cards are and wants them. In my experience, it's only the real collectors that want the jersey cards. Most people who buy cards (you have to remember that the majority of cards are sold at Target and WalMart - the two of them account for the majority of sales for Topps, UD and Donruss) are looking for their favorite players.

And you would also have a hard time proving the majority are fine with it.Not until you did a public poll that had enough attention to get serious and widespread votes.Saying you are right about knowing that is all wrong.

Not really. I can speak to what I've heard.

But it's not as if you have anything more backing your side anyway.

You may be right about people who say they are against it and really aren't but hey...who knows.

I'd say hot pack sellers who sell to board members (especially the well-known anti-searching BMB members) would know.

Your wife notwithstanding...a lot of times you are not necessarily going to marry a girl in that situation.

It was worth the risk.

I also have a hard time believing you knew from that moment on you would be happy with her for the rest of your life.

It was worth the risk.

Maybe you did maybe you didn't.But in any case...who knows.And a good percentage of the time I think you will find that your friends won't stick around either.

It was worth the risk.

Maybe you don't care and that's all your deal.Your call.But it doesn't change the point I made where it would cause a rift.If it does cause a rift(which I have never seen it not cause one) then wouldn't you hazard a guess there was a moral issue with it?

Wait, so it's "immoral" to step in and date a girl whose boyfriend was mistreating her?

That's quite a slippery slope. Where do you draw the line? Is it immoral to report a friend who is beating his wife? Hmmm...quite the "moral" conundrum. He's your friend, so he comes before anything else according to your argument. But beating his wife is immoral. Stepping in is immoral. Keeping your mouth shut is immoral. No matter what, you're screwed by your argument.

My cousin I mentioned, Chris, won't have a thing to do with any of the people we all used to hang out with.It wasn't that he was going to marry the girlfriends he had taken away from him.I mean...obviously...would you want to marry a girl like that in the first place?Some do some don't but its my logic that if they let themselves be taken away from someone, who's to say they won't do the same to you.But it was the fact that he had someone calling themselves a friend and being nice to him and acting like a friend and in the end they turn around and stab him in the back.A relationship should not end that way.If the couple is not happy...like I said...let it end on its own terms.To have a hand in it or cause it is out of line in most people's eyes.

It was worth the risk.

If you were offered a Ferrari for $50, but buying it would piss off a friend, what do you do?

I'm a swell guy, I can make new friends. Especially with a Ferrari.

Say you are as nice as you can be to your wife and give her everything you possibly can.What if some really rich guy(just an example so follow me here and don't say she wouldn't care because its not really relevant) who had a mansion and all the money in the world(imagine Wossa :lol: )wanted to pry her away from you.

Good luck.

And he did.Not because you didn't try your best but because obviously he had something to offer you didn't.And even though she was your wife...he came in and broke it up for his benefit.Would you be okay with that?

I'd be pissed at her. I couldn't be pissed at him, he didn't make her decision for her.

Hey...I've had a few people try it.I just made it abundantly clear that not only would it be met with aggression but that it wasn't about trust with my wife.It was about the fact that at any point and time, if it did occur, it would be seen as a sign of great disrespect.Great disrespect.Most people...don't want to deal with that kind of wrath.That kind of trouble.

Guys hit on my wife all the time. I consider it a compliment. They obviously think enough of her to hit on her. Why would I be mad that they think she's hot? She *is* hot. I'm not insecure in our relationship.

One other point as well is that while we always try to look out for ourselves and our best interests...my faith leads me to be a little less self serving and more gracious towards others.Now of course not everyone believes what I do but I feel sometimes its better not to always be thinking about yourself.Not to con other people out of things for your benefit.That kind of stuff comes back to you.In spades normally.I don't need that.

I've never been called selfish in my life. My wife is constantly on me for being selfless. It's one of the few things we fight about. I always let her have her way because I put her comfort and happiness (as well as my family's) before my own. I don't see what that has to do with pack searchers though.

As far as opening the packs...if you are not going to abide by the manufacture's intent which I think is safe to say they meant them to be a mystery and for you not to be able to tell what cards are in each pack...other than property damage...what's morally wrong with opening them and seeing whats in them?

What do you mean "other than property damage"? That's like saying "other than the whole murder thing, what's so morally wrong with shooting your neighbor in the forehead with a .45?" What's morally wrong with opening packs is that you're damaging someone else's property.

I don't care what they tell you in college...you can't prove ethics or morals based on their own definitions.Now if you want to call Webster and argue with them you can.

Webster's dictionary is not the definitive source on ethics, sorry to say. It's not meant to be. It's a dictionary.

But even if you are saying ethics are decided by a society...

Inter-subjectively within a culture is what I said.

its still that society's opinion of what is ethical.

A culture's inter-subjective conclusion.

Its still an opinion.

It's not an opinion. It's an inter-subjective moral conclusion.

As far as the manager thing...
I said if a manger doesn't chase a searcher out of a store.That's what I said.If he doesn't chase them away but he doesn't do anything special to allow them to search the boxes first...its still a reasonable conclusion that they will still search packs and shop there as well.But if a normal collector finds out that this is going on and he has a hunch that the store across the street does not allow this...he may just as well go over there and buy his cards and do his shopping.So he could lose a customer.Trust me...a manager himself may stand to gain something(maybe a new friend or even some extra cash in his pocket if the searcher feels like paying to be be the first one to get to the boxes) personally but the store as a whole does not.There are normally only about 5 or 6 boxes out at one time no matter what season it is and its inconceivable that they the money made from this does anything one way or the other for the store.

Short-sighted.

I already pointed this out before...why do stores print ads? Why do they offer coupons? Is it to give you a deal on toilet paper and lessen their profit margin? Of course not. It's to get people into the store.

With cards, a pack searcher is a reliable customer who is going to come in every week and at the least buy a dozen or so packs. Unlike a coupon or a sale, the store doesn't have to offer a discount to get the customer into the store. He's just going to go in on his own every week. While he's there, he's going to buy whatever else he needs, which are sales that the store wouldn't get otherwise. If the manager cultivates a relationship with him, he's going to make his big purchases there as well.

Hell...they make more money off of the uneducated collectors that come in and buy the rest of the packs.Not the few the searcher buys.

You're assuming that the rest of the packs will sell. That's not a safe assumption at all.

You don't think the uneducated collectors do their shopping there too?What your saying is some guy who buys one pack a box is more important to manager than the people who buy the rest of the box.

One guy who goes into the store on a weekly basis and buys a dozen packs is more important to the store than the people who are ALREADY SHOPPING THERE and pick up a couple packs on their way out, yes.

You may be tightly bound by ethics but they are not the same as mine.If you had the same ethics as I do you would feel that people who justify doing things and thinking a certain way by what my ethics show as flawed logic

*shakes head*

We've established that you don't know what ethics are, but it's even more obvious that you don't know what logic is. Logic isn't determined by ethics. Something can be perfectly logical and completely unethical. The two concepts are not even remotely related.

and reasoning to suit ones desires and not whats good or moral, are wrong.And that if the process is continued and repeated throughout life...it will lead to greater and greater misdeeds not only for you but others around you as people tend to follow example.

So basically you're saying that if I do things that you don't agree with, then there are going to be "greater and greater misdeeds" done? Wow.

That is how I think.From what I have gathered...that is not how you do.I could be wrong.I am only going on what you say.Your ethics seem to point to self gratification and desire and achieving things no matter the cost to others.Mine do not.I am sure your logic and thinking can justify this.Mine can't.

I honestly don't see where you're getting this whole "self-gratification at the cost of others" nonsense, but it's both waaaay off the mark and incredibly ignorant and insulting. You might want to lose the self-righteous tone.

With that, I'm done with this argument. I don't think I can spend another half hour discussing ethics and logic with someone who doesn't understand what those two terms mean.

 

[predatorkj]

Yea yeah yeah.I get it.Hey man...all I can say is you can have your opinion but after reading every single thing you wrote and responding to it...all I have seen you reply with is either I don't know what I am talking about, I don't understand something and you do because you went to college, or that you don't care.I mean...all bundled into one that's what you are saying.Which is why I say its a fruitless argument.The proof is in the pudding.Everything you write shows how you think and it leaves a lot to be desired.If you feel that you are a ethical guru because you went to study ethics or morals in college and that you feel you are a better person because of it...more power to you.If you like stealing away someone's woman...I guess you have some pretty passive friends.If you think that searching packs or whatnot is okay too...cool.

 

[Rudzud]

Your argument doesn't make any sense at all. I'd be fine refuting your argument, but you're just kind of babbling about singles or whatever.
My point went waaaaay over your head then.

My analogy was spot on. The part you failed to grasp is the irrelevance of manufacturer intent. Your argument is that pack searching is wrong because the manufacturer didn't intend for you to do it. My analogy illustrated the flaw in your "logic" and pointed out several examples of how people do things that contradict manufacturer intent, and nobody ever thinks twice about it because what the manufacturer intends has absolutely nothing to do with ethics.

Says who?
Says who?
Says who?

If you can tell which pack has the insert, who says the manufacturer didn't want you to be able to find it?

If someone can find a way around that roadblock without violating the law or doing something immoral, more power to them.


Again, take an ethics class in college.

I'm sorry, but I'm an educated man who has taken grad school classes in ethics (my grad advisor specialized in ethics and forced us to take more ethics courses than I would have ever wanted to take - I found the whole thing boring, but I learned it) arguing with a guy who clearly has no concept of what ethics are. No offense. I don't know the first thing about cricket or engine repair.
You're confusing value judgments with ethics.

If it's crazy, it's not logical. You can't "justify" something with "crazy logic". There's no such thing.

That's like calling someone a "liberal conservative" or a "right-handed southpaw".

If you believe that, you watch too many movies. People count cards every single day without getting caught. People get caught every single day and go back to that same casino the next day.

etc. etc. etc. etc.

man alive, been a while since I had to dust this off. Well over a year. In that time the movie has been taken down, and it appears I cannot embed just an audio file. Oh well, this will have to do.

Dedicated to you plainwhitejerseys

[youtube:20rcjfiu]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaS-TD4pQ-g[/youtube:20rcjfiu]

I hope ya flip some guy the bird
He cuts you off and you're forced to swerve
In front of the Beatles' tour bus
A Bookmobile and a Mack truck
Hauling hazardous biological waste
The light turns red you have no brakes
And "Hard Copy" gets it all on tape
So you can see the look on your face

Die Die Die Die Die Die Die
Die Die Die Die Die Die Die