HOF debate: Josh Hamilton

[elmalo]

Albert Bell was also mostly disliked by everyone.

The power of poularity is a mighty force in voting as well. This is why if Hamilton puts up MVP like numbers for 7 or so years, he will be heavily considered assuming he remains so favorably popular.

Agreed.

 

[nosterbor]

NO! See Juan Gonzalez. His carrier ended at 32......

 

[nosterbor]

hamilton is good but hes no griffey, arod or harper - his past is a great story but not a hof story

Harper???? Did you say Harper??? as in Bryce Harper??? If so,as of now Harper just might be able to carry Hamilton's jock strap and thats about it.

 

[matfanofold]

Just to restate me opinion, I do think the op overstates his with a heavy bias towards Hamilton. But once you sift through that, he has a point. Hamilton is the personification of America. He is the story of hardship, failure, personal torment, and ultimate success. He is everybody that ever went through personal failure and struggle, rising to stardom on a national stage. He is a living testimate that shines as an example for everyone to never give up. Not to mention he seems to be a very likable personality and one heck of a talent!

Point being, his story, personality, and talent is very much intertwined with his chances at a HOF career. In the odd chance he does dominate for the next 6 or seven years, he will get consideration. Just how great these next handful of years may be will dictate if and when. But that is a big "if". I really do not think a .300/30/100 line average will do it. I think he is going to need a .325/40/120 or so to have a serious chance. Even then it may not be a lock. To throw logic out the window, if he averaged .340/50/135 for the next 6 or 7 years then I would start to think lock. And with his talent, this only goes against logic based on his health issues.

 

[Frow]

Just to restate me opinion, I do think the op overstates his with a heavy bias towards Hamilton. But once you sift through that, he has a point. Hamilton is the personification of America. He is the story of hardship, failure, personal torment, and ultimate success. He is everybody that ever went through personal failure and struggle, rising to stardom on a national stage. He is a living testimate that shines as an example for everyone to never give up. Not to mention he seems to be a very likable personality and one heck of a talent!

Point being, his story, personality, and talent is very much intertwined with his chances at a HOF career. In the odd chance he does dominate for the next 6 or seven years, he will get consideration. Just how great these next handful of years may be will dictate if and when. But that is a big "if". I really do not think a .300/30/100 line average will do it. I think he is going to need a .325/40/120 or so to have a serious chance. Even then it may not be a lock. To throw logic out the window, if he averaged .340/50/135 for the next 6 or 7 years then I would start to think lock. And with his talent, this only goes against logic based on his health issues.

The problem is at this stage in the game if you added those lines to half the players in the MLB right now then they would look pretty good too. Dude has 2 outstanding seasons out of 6 played. As great as the rags to riches story is, let's really thing about that. In 7 years when he's played out and then another 4 years after that, how big is that story really going to be? It's important now because we are living through it now, but when the next best thing comes along and he's sitting at home waiting for his eligibility to kick in then why are we to believe that out attention span will last that long? Let's be honest too when we get to that point the argument will be not simply be how he overcame such obstacles to succeed, but the other side as well of how choices that he made foolished wasted his talent for so many years.

 

[matfanofold]

The problem is at this stage in the game if you added those lines to half the players in the MLB right now then they would look pretty good too. Dude has 2 outstanding seasons out of 6 played. As great as the rags to riches story is, let's really thing about that. In 7 years when he's played out and then another 4 years after that, how big is that story really going to be? It's important now because we are living through it now, but when the next best thing comes along and he's sitting at home waiting for his eligibility to kick in then why are we to believe that out attention span will last that long? Let's be honest too when we get to that point the argument will be not simply be how he overcame such obstacles to succeed, but the other side as well of how choices that he made foolished wasted his talent for so many years.

Thats a very valid opinion. It will be interesting to see how he is remembered, aside from stats, as the years play out.

 

[Titans74]

Just to restate me opinion, I do think the op overstates his with a heavy bias towards Hamilton. But once you sift through that, he has a point. Hamilton is the personification of America. He is the story of hardship, failure, personal torment, and ultimate success. He is everybody that ever went through personal failure and struggle, rising to stardom on a national stage. He is a living testimate that shines as an example for everyone to never give up. Not to mention he seems to be a very likable personality and one heck of a talent!

Point being, his story, personality, and talent is very much intertwined with his chances at a HOF career. In the odd chance he does dominate for the next 6 or seven years, he will get consideration. Just how great these next handful of years may be will dictate if and when. But that is a big "if". I really do not think a .300/30/100 line average will do it. I think he is going to need a .325/40/120 or so to have a serious chance. Even then it may not be a lock. To throw logic out the window, if he averaged .340/50/135 for the next 6 or 7 years then I would start to think lock. And with his talent, this only goes against logic based on his health issues.

Sorry, I strongly disagree. Hamilton's story is NOT the great American Dream, triumphant tale you and others like to believe it is. Personification of America? Bull. In only that he is just another drug addict that lies to himself and others while being a repeat offender? If that's what you meant then yea, our jails are full of those. He's no different other than he has some athletic talent that people are willing to pay him for. Other than that he would be in jail or on the streets like hundreds of thousands of other junkies.


Tired of people hyping up an alcoholic and junkie because he can hit a baseball. He is what he is. Without his baseball talent, he'd be a bum. I'll be sure to drape the American flag around him in my mind every time a Rangers game comes on. Pff.

 

[Topnotchsy]

I think only time will tell whether the years that Hamilton missed will have been time that his body did not take a beating in a baseball fashion (and therefore he can play at a high level until an older age than most) or if the drug abuse will have damaged his body in a similar fashion (or worse) than playing ball. (Not saying the two are comparable in the actual affect they have on the body, just in relation to playing baseball.)

I do think we must not forget that while Hamilton is incredibly hot at the moment, this is obviously not going to last. Even if he ends up winning the triple crown (and although it's really early, he's shown he can win a batting title, and he's built up impressive leads in the other categories, so if we are going to speculate about anyone, it might as well be him) he'll need a few seasons of this caliber to warrant consideration IMO, and I don't see much of a chance of that happening. While his MVP season was really impressive, it's not better than seasons that Pujols, Cabrera and others have had over the last few years and IMO to really warrant consideration in the fashion that people like Koufax got, he needs to have historically good seasons IMO.

As for his story, I know some will never get over the fact he brought the situation on himself, but I can never take away from him the fight he has fought since, one that I know I and probably most members here cannot begin to imagine. I wish him the absolute best, and hope he does stand tall and face the challenges since we can always use a reminder to get back up when we fall.

 

[uniquebaseballcards]

Did you even read his post? My reply was based on that including the time played/dominance. When you start talking about the time they played/dominated, you have to look at the numbers they put up in that time frame. So yes, he was comparing Hamilton to those two in the sense of time, but their accomplishments in that time frame has to be included other wise...so what? Whats the point of throwing their names into the discussion?

If you can't see how Koufax in particular applies then maybe you're a little more than a little lost.

 

[matfanofold]

Sorry, I strongly disagree. Hamilton's story is NOT the great American Dream, triumphant tale you and others like to believe it is. Personification of America? Bull. In only that he is just another drug addict that lies to himself and others while being a repeat offender? If that's what you meant then yea, our jails are full of those. He's no different other than he has some athletic talent that people are willing to pay him for. Other than that he would be in jail or on the streets like hundreds of thousands of other junkies.


Tired of people hyping up an alcoholic and junkie because he can hit a baseball. He is what he is. Without his baseball talent, he'd be a bum. I'll be sure to drape the American flag around him in my mind every time a Rangers game comes on. Pff.

Your certainly entitled to your opinion, I'm sure others will share it as well. Thats the beauty of opinion, they can differ so much based on how you wish to see things.

 

[Lars]

After destroying his body with alcohol and crack, who knows what Hamilton can be doing.

Too bad, he's a mixture of Brett Favre, Tim Tebow and Lance Armstrong - good ole' Josh is virtually Teflon in case anyone starts to dig around.

~And we all know that Bonds was clean~

 

[zach]

If you can't see how Koufax in particular applies then maybe you're a little more than a little lost.

Ok...you put the names out there. So, Please show me the way in how you would like to compare a great pitcher to a hitting player...years played, stats or otherwise.

 

[aarne13]

http://www.baseball-reference.com/friv/scomp_bat.cgi?I=hamiljo03:Josh%20Hamilton&st=career&compage=&age=

If he is healthy and has another 8-10 years of killer stats he should get in. It is probable that injuries will most likely hurt his chances.

 

[matfanofold]

Player From To Yrs WAR G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG SB CS OPS+ SIM

Josh Hamilton 2007-2012 6 22.9 620 2385 398 747 146 17 136 466 216 486 .313 .371 .560 38 10 140 941
Joey Votto ----2007-2012 6 22.2 649 2333 386 728 168 09 121 419 366 506 .312 .407 .547 38 17 152 916
Hunter Pence 2007-2012 6 17.0 767 2988 408 868 163 27 121 435 230 586 .290 .341 .485 65 37 119 904
Earl Webb ------1925-1933 7 12.1 650 2161 326 661 155 25 56 333 260 202 .306 .381 .478 8 4 125 899
Matt Kemp ----2006-2012 7 17.5 820 2977 493 882 145 29 140 484 270 769 .296 .354 .506 146 53 129 897
Kal Daniels -----1986-1992 7 15.7 727 2338 391 666 125 08 104 360 365 493 .285 .382 .479 87 26 138 897*
Monte Irvin -----1949-1956 8 20.2 764 2499 366 731 097 31 099 443 351 220 .293 .383 .475 028 7 125 893
Ryan Braun ---2007-2012 6 27.0 760 2997 528 934 193 28 171 552 254 589 .312 .371 .566 100 26 146 891
Corey Hart ----2004-2012 9 13.7 828 2996 459 827 185 30 131 441 236 658 .276 .333 .489 79 40 115 891
Justin Upton --2007-2012 6 11.5 612 2217 353 609 127 24 94 305 255 605 .275 .355 .481 67 27 118 891
Evan Longoria 2008-2012 5 27.6 586 2171 356 600 154 08 117 420 285 496 .276 .362 .516 36 10 138

Average of all 10 Players 6 18.4 716 2567 406 750 151 21 115 419 287 512 .292 .368 .503 65 24 128
Avg of all 3 Retired Players 7 16.0 713 2332 361 686 125 21 86 378 325 305 .294 .384 .477 41 12 129

Cleaned up a bit.

 

[vwnut13]

Sorry, I strongly disagree. Hamilton's story is NOT the great American Dream, triumphant tale you and others like to believe it is. Personification of America? Bull. In only that he is just another drug addict that lies to himself and others while being a repeat offender? If that's what you meant then yea, our jails are full of those. He's no different other than he has some athletic talent that people are willing to pay him for. Other than that he would be in jail or on the streets like hundreds of thousands of other junkies.


Tired of people hyping up an alcoholic and junkie because he can hit a baseball. He is what he is. Without his baseball talent, he'd be a bum. I'll be sure to drape the American flag around him in my mind every time a Rangers game comes on. Pff.

+10000000000000000000000000000000000

 

[Wes]

Ok...you put the names out there. So, Please show me the way in how you would like to compare a great pitcher to a hitting player...years played, stats or otherwise.

Koufax had six great years and not much else. Hamilton could easily have six great years and not much else.

 

[markakis8]

Just to restate me opinion, I do think the op overstates his with a heavy bias towards Hamilton. But once you sift through that, he has a point. Hamilton is the personification of America. He is the story of hardship, failure, personal torment, and ultimate success. He is everybody that ever went through personal failure and struggle, rising to stardom on a national stage. He is a living testimate that shines as an example for everyone to never give up. Not to mention he seems to be a very likable personality and one heck of a talent!

Point being, his story, personality, and talent is very much intertwined with his chances at a HOF career. In the odd chance he does dominate for the next 6 or seven years, he will get consideration. Just how great these next handful of years may be will dictate if and when. But that is a big "if". I really do not think a .300/30/100 line average will do it. I think he is going to need a .325/40/120 or so to have a serious chance. Even then it may not be a lock. To throw logic out the window, if he averaged .340/50/135 for the next 6 or 7 years then I would start to think lock. And with his talent, this only goes against logic based on his health issues.

You seem to get where I was going with this thread. It was more about Hamilton's story than it was his numbers.

 

[gt2590]

For the member known as Will, yes, I'd put him in the FCB HOF. Or liver Damage HOF. Or Wise*** HOF.

For the Baseball pro, IMO he needs 5 or 6 more MONSTER years to even consider it...

 

[zach]

Koufax had six great years and not much else. Hamilton could easily have six great years and not much else.

I see the point, but I don't think you can compare a pitcher with a fielder especially one that is a power hitter. DiMaggio, if anything, was a better comparison but there is no comparison.

 

[markakis8]

I see the point, but I don't think you can compare a pitcher with a fielder especially one that is a power hitter. DiMaggio, if anything, was a better comparison but there is no comparison.

I'm not sure what you aren't getting. No one is comparing Hamilton to Koufax nor Hamilton to DiMaggio. No one is saying that Hamilton is equal to or better than Koufax or DiMaggio. We are comparing the shortened level of dominance (as compared to other HOFers) in the era they played, REGARDLESS of what the numbers are. It's strictly about the # of years they played and dominating the league while they played. That's it.