if you where starting an NHL franchise.....

[pghbuccos]

I'm confused as to why people are choosing Mike Green for their d-man.

don't get me wrong he is a good offensive defenseman but if you are starting a franchise wouldn't you want a d-man that can play defense?

Because it's a tired meme that doesn't hold water.

His defensive value comes from his speed and ability to read the play, he was actually known as a hitter in juniors as well, though that doesn't fit into his role on the Caps. He skates well enough to make up for his mistakes and his GVT was second for all defenseman .4 points behind Keith and a whole 3 points higher than Doughty. His GAON is actually better than Keith's 2.37-2.77 and his ON+/- completely dwarfs Keith's 2.09-0.41.

That being said, Keith plays the tougher minutes against better opposition and is clearly more defensively responsible. But this isn't 1995 and defenseman are allowed to play the entire length of the ice again...thank god. Honestly, I'd take either. That being said, my list...

Stamkos
Green
Vokoun - (for a vet)
Neuvirth - (for a rook)

personally I wouldn't put Green in my Top 25 defensen in the NHL but too each his own I guess.

 

[wittcap79]

I'm confused as to why people are choosing Mike Green for their d-man.

don't get me wrong he is a good offensive defenseman but if you are starting a franchise wouldn't you want a d-man that can play defense?

Because it's a tired meme that doesn't hold water.

His defensive value comes from his speed and ability to read the play, he was actually known as a hitter in juniors as well, though that doesn't fit into his role on the Caps. He skates well enough to make up for his mistakes and his GVT was second for all defenseman .4 points behind Keith and a whole 3 points higher than Doughty. His GAON is actually better than Keith's 2.37-2.77 and his ON+/- completely dwarfs Keith's 2.09-0.41.

That being said, Keith plays the tougher minutes against better opposition and is clearly more defensively responsible. But this isn't 1995 and defenseman are allowed to play the entire length of the ice again...thank god. Honestly, I'd take either. That being said, my list...

Stamkos
Green
Vokoun - (for a vet)
Neuvirth - (for a rook)

personally I wouldn't put Green in my Top 25 defensen in the NHL but too each his own I guess.

That must be a lonely island you're on. BTW, I would love to see that list of 25.

 

[mojohockeycards]

Steven Stamkos
Ryan Wilson
J. Quick

 

[bowmanchromeandorr]

eric staal
dion phaneuf
henrik lundqvist


all time...

lemieux
orr
dryden ... and i'd win 7 out of 10 with just those 3

 

[matchpenalty]

I'm confused as to why people are choosing Mike Green for their d-man.

don't get me wrong he is a good offensive defenseman but if you are starting a franchise wouldn't you want a d-man that can play defense?

Because it's a tired meme that doesn't hold water.

His defensive value comes from his speed and ability to read the play, he was actually known as a hitter in juniors as well, though that doesn't fit into his role on the Caps. He skates well enough to make up for his mistakes and his GVT was second for all defenseman .4 points behind Keith and a whole 3 points higher than Doughty. His GAON is actually better than Keith's 2.37-2.77 and his ON+/- completely dwarfs Keith's 2.09-0.41.

That being said, Keith plays the tougher minutes against better opposition and is clearly more defensively responsible. But this isn't 1995 and defenseman are allowed to play the entire length of the ice again...thank god. Honestly, I'd take either. That being said, my list...

Stamkos
Green
Vokoun - (for a vet)
Neuvirth - (for a rook)

personally I wouldn't put Green in my Top 25 defensen in the NHL but too each his own I guess.

That must be a lonely island you're on. BTW, I would love to see that list of 25.

I wouldn't either. Green doesn't play any D.

Seguin
Myers
MAF

 

[pghbuccos]

I'm confused as to why people are choosing Mike Green for their d-man.

don't get me wrong he is a good offensive defenseman but if you are starting a franchise wouldn't you want a d-man that can play defense?

Because it's a tired meme that doesn't hold water.

His defensive value comes from his speed and ability to read the play, he was actually known as a hitter in juniors as well, though that doesn't fit into his role on the Caps. He skates well enough to make up for his mistakes and his GVT was second for all defenseman .4 points behind Keith and a whole 3 points higher than Doughty. His GAON is actually better than Keith's 2.37-2.77 and his ON+/- completely dwarfs Keith's 2.09-0.41.

That being said, Keith plays the tougher minutes against better opposition and is clearly more defensively responsible. But this isn't 1995 and defenseman are allowed to play the entire length of the ice again...thank god. Honestly, I'd take either. That being said, my list...

Stamkos
Green
Vokoun - (for a vet)
Neuvirth - (for a rook)

personally I wouldn't put Green in my Top 25 defensen in the NHL but too each his own I guess.

That must be a lonely island you're on. BTW, I would love to see that list of 25.

I wouldn't either. Green doesn't play any D.

Seguin
Myers
MAF

I'm glad someone else agrees.

 

[pghbuccos]

I'm confused as to why people are choosing Mike Green for their d-man.

don't get me wrong he is a good offensive defenseman but if you are starting a franchise wouldn't you want a d-man that can play defense?

Because it's a tired meme that doesn't hold water.

His defensive value comes from his speed and ability to read the play, he was actually known as a hitter in juniors as well, though that doesn't fit into his role on the Caps. He skates well enough to make up for his mistakes and his GVT was second for all defenseman .4 points behind Keith and a whole 3 points higher than Doughty. His GAON is actually better than Keith's 2.37-2.77 and his ON+/- completely dwarfs Keith's 2.09-0.41.

That being said, Keith plays the tougher minutes against better opposition and is clearly more defensively responsible. But this isn't 1995 and defenseman are allowed to play the entire length of the ice again...thank god. Honestly, I'd take either. That being said, my list...

Stamkos
Green
Vokoun - (for a vet)
Neuvirth - (for a rook)

personally I wouldn't put Green in my Top 25 defensen in the NHL but too each his own I guess.

That must be a lonely island you're on. BTW, I would love to see that list of 25.

as far as defensive defensemen here is my Top 25...

1 Drew Doughty
2 Shea Weber
3 Zdeno Chara
4 Duncan Keith
5 Tyler Myers
6 Niklas Lidstrom
7 Paul Martin
8 Rob Scuderi
9 Brian Rafalski
10 Brooks Orpik
11 Brent Seabrook
12 Dion Phaneuf
13 Kristopher Letang
14 Anton Volchenkov
15 Alexander Edler
16 Erik Johnson
17 Victor Hedman
18 Mark Eaton
19 Marc Staal
20 P.K. Subban
21 Ed Jovanovski
22 Chris Pronger
23 Brian Campbell
24 Christian Ehrhoff
25 Jay Bouwmeester

 

[Anthony K.]

Forward - Stamkos (His was the FIRST name to pop into my head when I read the title. Not Ovie, not The Kid and not the Chicago boys)
Defense - Phaneuf (I think he is still a top 5 defenseman, but I wouldn't argue with taking Weber or Doughty here)
Gaolie - Howard (I've been a fan of his for the last 4 years or so, waiting for him to get his chance to shine)

 

[jeff550]

I'm confused as to why people are choosing Mike Green for their d-man.

don't get me wrong he is a good offensive defenseman but if you are starting a franchise wouldn't you want a d-man that can play defense?

Because it's a tired meme that doesn't hold water.

His defensive value comes from his speed and ability to read the play, he was actually known as a hitter in juniors as well, though that doesn't fit into his role on the Caps. He skates well enough to make up for his mistakes and his GVT was second for all defenseman .4 points behind Keith and a whole 3 points higher than Doughty. His GAON is actually better than Keith's 2.37-2.77 and his ON+/- completely dwarfs Keith's 2.09-0.41.

That being said, Keith plays the tougher minutes against better opposition and is clearly more defensively responsible. But this isn't 1995 and defenseman are allowed to play the entire length of the ice again...thank god. Honestly, I'd take either. That being said, my list...

Stamkos
Green
Vokoun - (for a vet)
Neuvirth - (for a rook)

personally I wouldn't put Green in my Top 25 defensen in the NHL but too each his own I guess.

That must be a lonely island you're on. BTW, I would love to see that list of 25.

I wouldn't either. Green doesn't play any D.

Seguin
Myers
MAF

::facepalm:: ::facepalm:: ::facepalm:: ::facepalm::
did you watch a caps game last year?

 

[wittcap79]

I'm confused as to why people are choosing Mike Green for their d-man.

don't get me wrong he is a good offensive defenseman but if you are starting a franchise wouldn't you want a d-man that can play defense?

Because it's a tired meme that doesn't hold water.

His defensive value comes from his speed and ability to read the play, he was actually known as a hitter in juniors as well, though that doesn't fit into his role on the Caps. He skates well enough to make up for his mistakes and his GVT was second for all defenseman .4 points behind Keith and a whole 3 points higher than Doughty. His GAON is actually better than Keith's 2.37-2.77 and his ON+/- completely dwarfs Keith's 2.09-0.41.

That being said, Keith plays the tougher minutes against better opposition and is clearly more defensively responsible. But this isn't 1995 and defenseman are allowed to play the entire length of the ice again...thank god. Honestly, I'd take either. That being said, my list...

Stamkos
Green
Vokoun - (for a vet)
Neuvirth - (for a rook)

personally I wouldn't put Green in my Top 25 defensen in the NHL but too each his own I guess.

That must be a lonely island you're on. BTW, I would love to see that list of 25.

as far as defensive defensemen here is my Top 25...

1 Drew Doughty
2 Shea Weber
3 Zdeno Chara
4 Duncan Keith
5 Tyler Myers
6 Niklas Lidstrom
7 Paul Martin
8 Rob Scuderi
9 Brian Rafalski
10 Brooks Orpik
11 Brent Seabrook
12 Dion Phaneuf
13 Kristopher Letang
14 Anton Volchenkov
15 Alexander Edler
16 Erik Johnson
17 Victor Hedman
18 Mark Eaton
19 Marc Staal
20 P.K. Subban
21 Ed Jovanovski
22 Chris Pronger
23 Brian Campbell
24 Christian Ehrhoff
25 Jay Bouwmeester

LMFAO...I like how it went from Top 25 Defenseman in the NHL to Top 25 "DEFENSIVE" Defenseman. ::facepalm:: Yes, Mike Green isn't a DEFENSIVE defenseman...I don't think that was really up for debate.
For starters, any list of Top 25 NHL defenseman that doesn't have Nik Lidstrom in the Top 3 can pretty much be thrown out...dontcha think?
And BTW, could you shove any more Pens and former Pens on that list? I mean we are all homers to an extent but Mark F'N Eaton!? Try to keep SOME credibility to the list.

Look if you were looking to define one dimensional players you did a great job. If I never wanted my d-men to cross the red line you'd be straight with your Staal, Eaton, Orpik and Hedman. Of course you included well known offensive defenseman for some reason like Shea Weber (#2 really?), Subban, Jovanovski (-68 career), Bouwmeester (-31 career), and Campbell. Don't forget everyone's two favorite pylons Chara and Pronger. Although Chara still has something left, I'm pretty sure Pronger is just throwing elbows at everyone now since he can't skate anymore.

But since we are talking about overrated, why would anyone choose to start their new franchise with a goalie that is 18th among active G's in GAA and 13th in SV% ? I guess you really do need a roster full of stay-at-home guys.

 

[matchpenalty]

I just don't care for soft defense guys like Green who couldn't clear his crease of anybody.
His style works in DC surronded by a bunch of gunners.

 

[jarcar]

[quote="pghbuccos":4xd4cbrb]I'm confused as to why people are choosing Mike Green for their d-man.

don't get me wrong he is a good offensive defenseman but if you are starting a franchise wouldn't you want a d-man that can play defense?

Because it's a tired meme that doesn't hold water.

His defensive value comes from his speed and ability to read the play, he was actually known as a hitter in juniors as well, though that doesn't fit into his role on the Caps. He skates well enough to make up for his mistakes and his GVT was second for all defenseman .4 points behind Keith and a whole 3 points higher than Doughty. His GAON is actually better than Keith's 2.37-2.77 and his ON+/- completely dwarfs Keith's 2.09-0.41.

That being said, Keith plays the tougher minutes against better opposition and is clearly more defensively responsible. But this isn't 1995 and defenseman are allowed to play the entire length of the ice again...thank god. Honestly, I'd take either. That being said, my list...

Stamkos
Green
Vokoun - (for a vet)
Neuvirth - (for a rook)

personally I wouldn't put Green in my Top 25 defensen in the NHL but too each his own I guess.

That must be a lonely island you're on. BTW, I would love to see that list of 25.

as far as defensive defensemen here is my Top 25...

1 Drew Doughty
2 Shea Weber
3 Zdeno Chara
4 Duncan Keith
5 Tyler Myers
6 Niklas Lidstrom
7 Paul Martin
8 Rob Scuderi
9 Brian Rafalski
10 Brooks Orpik
11 Brent Seabrook
12 Dion Phaneuf
13 Kristopher Letang
14 Anton Volchenkov
15 Alexander Edler
16 Erik Johnson
17 Victor Hedman
18 Mark Eaton
19 Marc Staal
20 P.K. Subban
21 Ed Jovanovski
22 Chris Pronger
23 Brian Campbell
24 Christian Ehrhoff
25 Jay Bouwmeester

LMFAO...I like how it went from Top 25 Defenseman in the NHL to Top 25 "DEFENSIVE" Defenseman. ::facepalm:: Yes, Mike Green isn't a DEFENSIVE defenseman...I don't think that was really up for debate.
For starters, any list of Top 25 NHL defenseman that doesn't have Nik Lidstrom in the Top 3 can pretty much be thrown out...dontcha think?
And BTW, could you shove any more Pens and former Pens on that list? I mean we are all homers to an extent but Mark F'N Eaton!? Try to keep SOME credibility to the list.

Look if you were looking to define one dimensional players you did a great job. If I never wanted my d-men to cross the red line you'd be straight with your Staal, Eaton, Orpik and Hedman. Of course you included well known offensive defenseman for some reason like Shea Weber (#2 really?), Subban, Jovanovski (-68 career), Bouwmeester (-31 career), and Campbell. Don't forget everyone's two favorite pylons Chara and Pronger. Although Chara still has something left, I'm pretty sure Pronger is just throwing elbows at everyone now since he can't skate anymore.

But since we are talking about overrated, why would anyone choose to start their new franchise with a goalie that is 18th among active G's in GAA and 13th in SV% ? I guess you really do need a roster full of stay-at-home guys.[/quote:4xd4cbrb]

I do think Mike Green is a top 10 D man but to say Lidstrom should be top three is not correct anymore. He is also top 10 but he has lost a step, he's getting old, and was not top three last year and won't be again this year. Weber is a beast and is easily top 3. I'm assuming you didn't watch the playoffs last year to say what you said about Pronger, I hate the guy, but he absolutely top 25, I wouldn't start a franchise with him (or Lidstrom for that matter) he's past his prime but still top 25 in the league.

 

[wittcap79]

[quote="wittcap79":2uvhadoe][quote="pghbuccos":2uvhadoe]I'm confused as to why people are choosing Mike Green for their d-man.

don't get me wrong he is a good offensive defenseman but if you are starting a franchise wouldn't you want a d-man that can play defense?

Because it's a tired meme that doesn't hold water.

His defensive value comes from his speed and ability to read the play, he was actually known as a hitter in juniors as well, though that doesn't fit into his role on the Caps. He skates well enough to make up for his mistakes and his GVT was second for all defenseman .4 points behind Keith and a whole 3 points higher than Doughty. His GAON is actually better than Keith's 2.37-2.77 and his ON+/- completely dwarfs Keith's 2.09-0.41.

That being said, Keith plays the tougher minutes against better opposition and is clearly more defensively responsible. But this isn't 1995 and defenseman are allowed to play the entire length of the ice again...thank god. Honestly, I'd take either. That being said, my list...

Stamkos
Green
Vokoun - (for a vet)
Neuvirth - (for a rook)

personally I wouldn't put Green in my Top 25 defensen in the NHL but too each his own I guess.

That must be a lonely island you're on. BTW, I would love to see that list of 25.

as far as defensive defensemen here is my Top 25...

1 Drew Doughty
2 Shea Weber
3 Zdeno Chara
4 Duncan Keith
5 Tyler Myers
6 Niklas Lidstrom
7 Paul Martin
8 Rob Scuderi
9 Brian Rafalski
10 Brooks Orpik
11 Brent Seabrook
12 Dion Phaneuf
13 Kristopher Letang
14 Anton Volchenkov
15 Alexander Edler
16 Erik Johnson
17 Victor Hedman
18 Mark Eaton
19 Marc Staal
20 P.K. Subban
21 Ed Jovanovski
22 Chris Pronger
23 Brian Campbell
24 Christian Ehrhoff
25 Jay Bouwmeester

LMFAO...I like how it went from Top 25 Defenseman in the NHL to Top 25 "DEFENSIVE" Defenseman. ::facepalm:: Yes, Mike Green isn't a DEFENSIVE defenseman...I don't think that was really up for debate.
For starters, any list of Top 25 NHL defenseman that doesn't have Nik Lidstrom in the Top 3 can pretty much be thrown out...dontcha think?
And BTW, could you shove any more Pens and former Pens on that list? I mean we are all homers to an extent but Mark F'N Eaton!? Try to keep SOME credibility to the list.

Look if you were looking to define one dimensional players you did a great job. If I never wanted my d-men to cross the red line you'd be straight with your Staal, Eaton, Orpik and Hedman. Of course you included well known offensive defenseman for some reason like Shea Weber (#2 really?), Subban, Jovanovski (-68 career), Bouwmeester (-31 career), and Campbell. Don't forget everyone's two favorite pylons Chara and Pronger. Although Chara still has something left, I'm pretty sure Pronger is just throwing elbows at everyone now since he can't skate anymore.

But since we are talking about overrated, why would anyone choose to start their new franchise with a goalie that is 18th among active G's in GAA and 13th in SV% ? I guess you really do need a roster full of stay-at-home guys.[/quote:2uvhadoe]

I do think Mike Green is a top 10 D man but to say Lidstrom should be top three is not correct anymore. He is also top 10 but he has lost a step, he's getting old, and was not top three last year and won't be again this year. Weber is a beast and is easily top 3. I'm assuming you didn't watch the playoffs last year to say what you said about Pronger, I hate the guy, but he absolutely top 25, I wouldn't start a franchise with him (or Lidstrom for that matter) he's past his prime but still top 25 in the league.[/quote:2uvhadoe]

I'm not arguing for Green as the best D-man in the league...cause I don't think he is. But to say he's not Top 25 is simply insane. I still think Lidstrom is top 3 though I wouldn't start my team with him because he is so old. I think Weber is top 5 I'm not sure if I'd put him as top 3. Of course the whole top 10 could probably just be interchangeable depending on what style you play and what you're looking for. And I wasn't saying Pronger shouldn't be on the list just that alot of the guys he did include just aren't that good.

Top 25 based solely on Defensive GVT(WAR for you baseball guys)

1 Zdeno Chara D BOS
2 Chris Pronger D PHI
3 Duncan Keith D CHI
4 Nicklas Lidstrom D DET
5 Drew Doughty D LAK
6 Brent Seabrook D CHI
7 Brian Rafalski D DET
8 Christian Ehrhoff D VAN
9 Tyler Myers D BUF
10 Chris Phillips D OTT
11 Matt Carle D PHI
12 Andy Greene D NJD
13 Marc Staal D NYR
14 Henrik Tallinder D BUF
15 Mark Giordano D CGY
16 Colin White D NJD
17 Jeff Schultz D WSH
18 Mike Mottau D NJD
19 Rob Scuderi D LAK
20 Ryan Suter D NSH
21 Sean O'Donnell D LAK
22 Mike Weaver D STL
23 Brian Campbell D CHI
24 Kimmo Timonen D PHI
25 Bryce Salvador D NJD
26 Mike Green D WSH

29 Shea Weber
39 Jay Bouwmeester
46 Mark Eaton
51 Anton Volchenkov ...etc

http://www.behindthenet.ca/2009/gvt.php?sort=12&mingp=&team=ALL&pos=D

 

[pghbuccos]

that list is just 2009-10 stats correct?

 

[jeff550]

that list is just 2009-10 stats correct?

i would have to think yes, but i think green's stats will be almost the same, if not better in the D department this year.

if you have watchd him from 08-09, to 09-10 there is a huge difference in his play. and it has looked better this year, as he has been finishing his checks better, and is just an all around better defenseman.

 

[wittcap79]

that list is just 2009-10 stats correct?

Yeah...isn't all of sports "what have you done for me lately?"

 

[pghbuccos]

that list is just 2009-10 stats correct?

Yeah...isn't all of sports "what have you done for me lately?"

the only reason I was wondering was because I picked my 3 players based on their career performances and potential not just based on one season so maybe I took the whole concept of the topic wrong.

and once again I am not saying Green is the worst defensemen in the NHL. as I stated before he is a very good offensive defenseman but if I was starting a franchise I would want a defensive defensemen first and then an offensive defensemen. if I was to choose a 2nd dman I would definitely consider Green. especially to put him on the top Power Play line.

oh well I am glad I sparked some controversy and was able to get some people talking about this. I always enjoy hearing other people's opinions. it's nice to see you posting over here on the hockey boards and I look forward to chatting with you some more in the future.

 

[wittcap79]

that list is just 2009-10 stats correct?

Yeah...isn't all of sports "what have you done for me lately?"

the only reason I was wondering was because I picked my 3 players based on their career performances and potential not just based on one season so maybe I took the whole concept of the topic wrong.

and once again I am not saying Green is the worst defensemen in the NHL. as I stated before he is a very good offensive defenseman but if I was starting a franchise I would want a defensive defensemen first and then an offensive defensemen. if I was to choose a 2nd dman I would definitely consider Green. especially to put him on the top Power Play line.

oh well I am glad I sparked some controversy and was able to get some people talking about this. I always enjoy hearing other people's opinions. it's nice to see you posting over here on the hockey boards and I look forward to chatting with you some more in the future.

See, I picked mine based on the exact opposite. I figured if I was starting a franchise right now I want the best young guys. Which is why I didn't pick a guy like Brodeur and made a little caveat when I picked Vokoun...who is vastly underrated BTW.

It's all about the style you want to play really. Do I think Doughty and Keith are better defenseman overall, absolutely. But if you want a run and gun style of play you'd be better off with a Mike Green.

 

[pghbuccos]

that list is just 2009-10 stats correct?

Yeah...isn't all of sports "what have you done for me lately?"

the only reason I was wondering was because I picked my 3 players based on their career performances and potential not just based on one season so maybe I took the whole concept of the topic wrong.

and once again I am not saying Green is the worst defensemen in the NHL. as I stated before he is a very good offensive defenseman but if I was starting a franchise I would want a defensive defensemen first and then an offensive defensemen. if I was to choose a 2nd dman I would definitely consider Green. especially to put him on the top Power Play line.

oh well I am glad I sparked some controversy and was able to get some people talking about this. I always enjoy hearing other people's opinions. it's nice to see you posting over here on the hockey boards and I look forward to chatting with you some more in the future.

See, I picked mine based on the exact opposite. I figured if I was starting a franchise right now I want the best young guys. Which is why I didn't pick a guy like Brodeur and made a little caveat when I picked Vokoun...who is vastly underrated BTW.

It's all about the style you want to play really. Do I think Doughty and Keith are better defenseman overall, absolutely. But if you want a run and gun style of play you'd be better off with a Mike Green.

your picks make absolute sense for your style of team without a doubt and believe me I know how underrated Vokoun is. I get to see it every time the Pens play the Panthers. I think they will be able to build a pretty solid team around him soon and make a return to the Playoffs.

 

[wittcap79]

that list is just 2009-10 stats correct?

Yeah...isn't all of sports "what have you done for me lately?"

the only reason I was wondering was because I picked my 3 players based on their career performances and potential not just based on one season so maybe I took the whole concept of the topic wrong.

and once again I am not saying Green is the worst defensemen in the NHL. as I stated before he is a very good offensive defenseman but if I was starting a franchise I would want a defensive defensemen first and then an offensive defensemen. if I was to choose a 2nd dman I would definitely consider Green. especially to put him on the top Power Play line.

oh well I am glad I sparked some controversy and was able to get some people talking about this. I always enjoy hearing other people's opinions. it's nice to see you posting over here on the hockey boards and I look forward to chatting with you some more in the future.

See, I picked mine based on the exact opposite. I figured if I was starting a franchise right now I want the best young guys. Which is why I didn't pick a guy like Brodeur and made a little caveat when I picked Vokoun...who is vastly underrated BTW.

It's all about the style you want to play really. Do I think Doughty and Keith are better defenseman overall, absolutely. But if you want a run and gun style of play you'd be better off with a Mike Green.

your picks make absolute sense for your style of team without a doubt and believe me I know how underrated Vokoun is. I get to see it every time the Pens play the Panthers. I think they will be able to build a pretty solid team around him soon and make a return to the Playoffs.

Lol, they better hurry, he's a UFA after this year I believe.