Is Ichiro Suzuki overrated?

[xcantgobackx]

I think people often misunderstand the word "overrated" to mean "bad".

it's more to the fact that respect should be given to someone who has accomplished hitting 200+ hits 9 years in a row, lifetime avg of .333 and about to hit over .350+ for the 4th time in 9 years

not too many underrated, overrated, superstars, scrubs, hof'ers, etc can say they've accomplished what ichiro has done so far in his career

honestly, when he went down at the beginning of the season, i thought this was the start to his decline due to his age and mileage. he is 35-36 years old so he's getting up there in age. however, even after missing those 7-8 games from the start of the season and missing another 7-8 games a few months back, putting up 200+ hits and batting .350+ has actually proven to me that he is one of the best players in modern sports

dave

I hear you. I love him. I just think people get too bent out of shape when they hear "overrated". It's all perception.

 

[Sly]

Pete Rose had a career .784 OPS...was he an overrated hitter?

That would depend on whether or not one viewed Rose as one of the greatest hitters of all time...

And many do.

Now, you wanted to bring up the Jeter comparison, so let's look at the numbers of Jeter vs. Ichiro from ages 27-35:

Ichiro vs. Jeter
2022 vs. 1735 Hits
379 vs. 453 XBH
970 vs. 968 Runs
.377 vs. .384 OBP
.434 vs. .453 SLG
.811 vs. .837 OPS
43 vs. 147 GIDP
411 vs. 543 BB
594 vs. 893 K
341 vs. 197 SB

Sure, from a "power" perspective, Jeter has put up better numbers...but despite Ichiro's lack of XBH, his OBP, SLG and OPS is not much worse than Jeter's. Ichiro strikes out a lot less, grounds in to a lot fewer DP's, steals more bases.

So I guess I ask this...is Jeter overrated??

I think few look at Jeter as one of the "best in game" the way they look at Ichiro.

With that said, you've offered a pretty unfair comparison considering Jeter has put up many more seasons (something that can not be completely ignored.) Based on that comparison I'm not sure I would take Ichiro over Jeter even in those seasons (the hits are nice, but the difference in walks makes up for a lot of the difference in hits, and Jeter has him is XBH's and all the slash categories.

What's unfair about it? Unfair would be comparing all of Jeter's MLB stats vs. all of Ichiro's MLB stats since Jeter has about 6 additional years. How is it unfair to compare two players, over the same amount of time (at the same age) and what they've accomplished. Both are 35 years old and comparing the last 9 years of stats (all of Ichiro's in the MLB) is fair.

So with a guy on second or third base, you'd rather have a guy who takes the walk, instead of the guy who gets the base hit?

 

[Wes]

the best leadoff hitter of this era, and an outstanding fielder - can't ask for much more than a player like him.

 

[Sly]

Baseball-reference.com is great for Split stats. Here's the RISP info for you:

Ichiro vs. Jeter (RISP)
.340 vs. .308 AVG
.443 vs. .403 OBP
.422 vs. .429 SLG
.865 vs. .832 OPS

Ichiro vs. Jeter (RISP w/ 2 Outs)
.353 vs. .313 AVG
.481 vs. .418 OBP
.455 vs. .447 SLG
.936 vs. .865 OPS

[quote="Sly":2mpkhqe9]
Pete Rose had a career .784 OPS...was he an overrated hitter?

That would depend on whether or not one viewed Rose as one of the greatest hitters of all time...

And many do.

Now, you wanted to bring up the Jeter comparison, so let's look at the numbers of Jeter vs. Ichiro from ages 27-35:

Ichiro vs. Jeter
2022 vs. 1735 Hits
379 vs. 453 XBH
970 vs. 968 Runs
.377 vs. .384 OBP
.434 vs. .453 SLG
.811 vs. .837 OPS
43 vs. 147 GIDP
411 vs. 543 BB
594 vs. 893 K
341 vs. 197 SB

Sure, from a "power" perspective, Jeter has put up better numbers...but despite Ichiro's lack of XBH, his OBP, SLG and OPS is not much worse than Jeter's. Ichiro strikes out a lot less, grounds in to a lot fewer DP's, steals more bases.

So I guess I ask this...is Jeter overrated??

Jeter has advantage in the 3 biggest stats though in OBP, SLG, OPS. Also, this comes as a shortstop. Position scarcity is very important. Ichiro of course has the advantage in speed and fielding his postion but Jeter has been one of the best offensive shortstops throughout his career.

And there is more to a baseball player than those three stats.

What a player does at the plate, advancing runners, hitting with RISP, what they do on the basepaths, what they do in the field. And most of those things, Ichiro does better than Jeter.

Oh, and with RISP, Ichiro has Jeter in those three "key" stats. Same with 2 outs with RISP.

Ultimately it comes down to this...just because a player is not a power hitter, does that mean he's "overrated", because that is always people's argument for Ichiro being overrated.

I didn't look into RISP stats (I would actually be interested if you know a site with RISP stats for a players career) but I'll take your word for it. Nowhere did I say that a person has to be a power hitter to be a good player. I also said he is overrated because he is often talked about as if he is among the elite players in the game, but I don't believe he is.

His problems come from a lack of walks and a relatively empty avg. His OBP is good but it's not at the level of many of the top offensive players and for a lead off hitter, this should be even more important. You don't have to be a power hitter to be good, but extra base hits are better than singles, there is no argument about that. You also didn't address the biggest factor in Jeter's value over ichiro, his position. Look at any stats that incorporates level above replacement at his position, and you'll see that Jeter's numbers as a SS are very impressive.

I actually like ichiro and am pretty indifferent about jeter. I just find it interesting that so many people are caught up on number of hits without putting it into context (ie at the sacrifice of walking or slugging)[/quote:2mpkhqe9]

 

[Topnotchsy]

What's unfair about it? Unfair would be comparing all of Jeter's MLB stats vs. all of Ichiro's MLB stats since Jeter has about 6 additional years. How is it unfair to compare two players, over the same amount of time (at the same age) and what they've accomplished. Both are 35 years old and comparing the last 9 years of stats (all of Ichiro's in the MLB) is fair.

So with a guy on second or third base, you'd rather have a guy who takes the walk, instead of the guy who gets the base hit?

Fact is Jeter has done it longer in the Majors, and that's worth something.

As for second and third, if the hit is an infield hit, it is no better than a walk. On the flip side, if the hit is a double (something far more likely from Jeter, or almost any other big name in the Majors) it's worth way more.

 

[Sly]

What's unfair about it? Unfair would be comparing all of Jeter's MLB stats vs. all of Ichiro's MLB stats since Jeter has about 6 additional years. How is it unfair to compare two players, over the same amount of time (at the same age) and what they've accomplished. Both are 35 years old and comparing the last 9 years of stats (all of Ichiro's in the MLB) is fair.

So with a guy on second or third base, you'd rather have a guy who takes the walk, instead of the guy who gets the base hit?

Fact is Jeter has done it longer in the Majors, and that's worth something.

As for second and third, if the hit is an infield hit, it is no better than a walk. On the flip side, if the hit is a double (something far more likely from Jeter, or almost any other big name in the Majors) it's worth way more.

An infield hit will still most likely advance the runner, a walk won't.

A guy on third will score on ANY type of base hit, but will not score on a walk. Even a runner with mediocre speed can score from second base on a single, but they won't score on a walk.

 

[Austin]

Ichiro is a unique and rare kind of ballplayer.
He's the best pure hitter in the game, much like Rod Carew and Tony Gwynn were.
So no, he's not overrated.
He's a completely different player than sluggers like Pujols and other players with high OPS, and he can't and shouldn't be compared to them.
Ichiro is the best at what he does.

 

[Wes]

If you're going to quibble about extra base hits, factor in Ichiro's stolen bases compared to Jeter's - every single followed by a steal is about the same as a double for Jeter.

 

[dooly]

Ichiro is a unique and rare kind of ballplayer.
He's the best pure hitter in the game, much like Rod Carew and Tony Gwynn were.
So no, he's not overrated.
He's a completely different player than sluggers like Pujols and other players with high OPS, and he can't and shouldn't be compared to them.
Ichiro is the best at what he does.

Yes he is great at what he does, but why cant we compare him? If Ichiro walked more and hit for more power, wouldn't we all agree he would be a better player?

 

[daveyou]

I think people often misunderstand the word "overrated" to mean "bad".

it's more to the fact that respect should be given to someone who has accomplished hitting 200+ hits 9 years in a row, lifetime avg of .333 and about to hit over .350+ for the 4th time in 9 years

not too many underrated, overrated, superstars, scrubs, hof'ers, etc can say they've accomplished what ichiro has done so far in his career

honestly, when he went down at the beginning of the season, i thought this was the start to his decline due to his age and mileage. he is 35-36 years old so he's getting up there in age. however, even after missing those 7-8 games from the start of the season and missing another 7-8 games a few months back, putting up 200+ hits and batting .350+ has actually proven to me that he is one of the best players in modern sports

dave

I hear you. I love him. I just think people get too bent out of shape when they hear "overrated". It's all perception.

i def. agree

my definition of overrated are guys like rios, pavano, etc all those scrubs who had decent year or two that got them a huge contract that is not deserved

dave

 

[dooly]

Thanks for the stats...i should have looked harder in baseball reference

oops meant to quote sly

 

[cammy collector]

nope

he's underrated

dave

 

[aminors]

Every player on a team has a different role. As the prototypical lead-off hitter in the MLB, Ichiro does just as he is suppose to do. Get on base, and score runs - both to which you will find Ichiro's name atop the Top 10 since he came across the pond to play.

For me, I would side on the fact that Ichiro is vastly underrated as a player. In our day and age of the glorified long ball, fans quickly forget the basics for the game and what a player with superb mechanics and skill actually bring to the team.

I absolutely could not agree one fraction of a percent more. Well put. Just because a guy doesn't have power doesn't mean he's not great. He will go down as one of the best players ever, without question. He's like a..well, he's comparable to...wait, there's never been a player like Ichiro. He's the best at what he does. End of discussion.

Anthony

 

[Wes]

Ichiro is a unique and rare kind of ballplayer.
He's the best pure hitter in the game, much like Rod Carew and Tony Gwynn were.
So no, he's not overrated.
He's a completely different player than sluggers like Pujols and other players with high OPS, and he can't and shouldn't be compared to them.
Ichiro is the best at what he does.

Yes he is great at what he does, but why cant we compare him? If Ichiro walked more and hit for more power, wouldn't we all agree he would be a better player?

If ANYONE walked more and hit for more power we'd all agree they would be a better player.

 

[jeff550]

so jeter is not overrated even though when he strikes out its for a reason. yet ichio is overated ::facepalm::

 

[scotty21690]

Before you stone me for asking, hear me out.

Obviously Ichiro is one of the greatest contact hitters we have seen in a long time.

With that said...

Ichiro has never had more than 50 XBH's in a season, so (as is known) power is not his game. Most of his hits are singles, many of the infield variety. Despite his high hit totals, because he rarely walks, his OBP is not nearly as high as one might have guessed. A career .377 is certainly not too shabby, but because he lacks power, reaching base is probably the area where he offers the most value (though his defense and base stealing should obviously not be overlooked are among the best.) While for most players hits are better than walks, in Ichiro's case where many of the hits are in the infield, there's really no difference as there's no real chance for a runner to advance an extra base.

Just to offer a comparison, Derek Jeter has a career .388 OBP.

I'm not saying that Ichiro is not a great player, but it just seems like he gets more credit than a hitter with a lifetime .811 OPS deserves.

Thoughts?

Pete Rose had a career .784 OPS...was he an overrated hitter?

Yes, very.

It makes me cringe when people say he is the greatest hitter of all time!!


Back to Ichiro....he is 100% NOT overrated, and to say he is well, is quite ridiculous! You have to understand that Ichiro is not a power hitter and he does not draw walks. Why? Well he is one [much like Ellsbury, Theriot, etc..] to get on base by getting hits. Ichiro is the best in the league at doing this, hence the career .333 BA with 9 consecutive 200 hit seasons. I don't see how being overrated is not hitting a lot of XBHs. That is his job, to get that hit and [potentionally] steal 2nd to quickly be in scoring position. Some of you may not know that Ichiro has led the AL in IBBs 3 times in his career so righly 1/3 of the times he walks, pitchers are afraid to pitch to him! Also he has 8 seasons with 100+ runs, so in his job being to get on base and score runs he does it better than anyone else. I'm not sure how not being a power hitter makes you overrated nowadays...we all know that Ichiro has a TON of power and routinely hits homeruns in BP but he is a slab hitter that wants to get on base with a hit. Also, you are knocking a .377 OBP for someone who never walks?!?! He is a great clutch hitter so that counts for quite a bit. Alright enough of my rambling, but I just have to say that Ichiro has a different hitting approach [It's not all about the longball!!] but he is one of the best of the best at what he does!

 

[1995BBRefractorGuy]

no Ichiro is not (I would almost say underrated in terms of North American hobby love), jeter is absolutely, check the stats!

 

[championMan]

The guy going to the HOF end of discussion.

 

[darocker80]

nope

he's underrated

dave

+1.

I have a feeling when he starts slowing down you'll see him putting up 20+ HR seasons. M's fans know what I am talking about (BP!)

 

[hofautos]

nope

he's underrated

dave

+100

/thread