Is it now "Too Late" for the class of 2006/07

[Tomlinson21RB]

[quote="blazers091":2m10zzpm]he'd be sebastian telfair. Its easy enough to get that many assists next to 4 future HOFers, but he cant even shoot or make free throws.

Come on now. That's just foolish. I may be in the minority but with out Rondo they do not win that ring.

You, me, and every single one of Pierce, Allen, and KG have said that.

Rondo = Steve Kerr = Derek Fisher.

All very good players that were made great because of who they were playing with. You obviously don't understand the concept of superior players opening things up for everyone else.

Pierce, Allen, and KG have all been in the game for a very long time. They know what to say and how to say it. Giving credit to the little guy is how all veterans euphamize their own talents and success.

Just like how the championship winning teams ALWAYS give the credit to the fans - i'm sure you've seen that nausea over and over again through the years- "We couldn't have done it without you guys, the fans". Yah right - it's almost as overplayed as "I don't feel like i'm losing a daughter, I feel like i'm gaining a son."

I can't believe i'm surrounded by a bunch of Celtic homers.

Agree to disagree, but I'm still right!

Just wondering, how many celtics games do you watch each year?

Obviously not as many as you, but I do know basketball as well. I'm not calling Rondo sebastian telfair, but he does benefit from a superior lineup.[/quote:2m10zzpm]

No doubt, but I'd argue that his lineup benefits just as much from him as he does from them. Also, the only real argument you're making against him is his inflated assist numbers. That completely ignores the individual stats like steals (league leader last year), rebounds (high for a guard), and FG% (which shows efficiency). His passes aren't just dump offs to guys who hit shots, he's finding them at the exact right time and creating shots for others with his penetration.

I guess we're arguing something that neither of us can prove. I have visual evidence and statistics to back me up, and you have a theory. It's like me saying Jordan never won a championship until he got Pippen, therefor Pippen was more important in winning the titles than Jordan. If you don't accept stats or evidence from watching those championships, then there is no way to prove otherwise since Jordan never won without Pippen.

 

[brouthercard]

[quote="kdailey4315":68vx1git][quote="blazers091":68vx1git]he'd be sebastian telfair. Its easy enough to get that many assists next to 4 future HOFers, but he cant even shoot or make free throws.

Come on now. That's just foolish. I may be in the minority but with out Rondo they do not win that ring.

You, me, and every single one of Pierce, Allen, and KG have said that.

Rondo = Steve Kerr = Derek Fisher.

All very good players that were made great because of who they were playing with. You obviously don't understand the concept of superior players opening things up for everyone else.

Pierce, Allen, and KG have all been in the game for a very long time. They know what to say and how to say it. Giving credit to the little guy is how all veterans euphamize their own talents and success.

Just like how the championship winning teams ALWAYS give the credit to the fans - i'm sure you've seen that nausea over and over again through the years- "We couldn't have done it without you guys, the fans". Yah right - it's almost as overplayed as "I don't feel like i'm losing a daughter, I feel like i'm gaining a son."

I can't believe i'm surrounded by a bunch of Celtic homers.

Agree to disagree, but I'm still right!

Just wondering, how many celtics games do you watch each year?

Obviously not as many as you, but I do know basketball as well. I'm not calling Rondo sebastian telfair, but he does benefit from a superior lineup.[/quote:68vx1git]

No doubt, but I'd argue that his lineup benefits just as much from him as he does from them. Also, the only real argument you're making against him is his inflated assist numbers. That completely ignores the individual stats like steals (league leader last year), rebounds (high for a guard), and FG% (which shows efficiency). His passes aren't just dump offs to guys who hit shots, he's finding them at the exact right time and creating shots for others with his penetration.

I guess we're arguing something that neither of us can prove. I have visual evidence and statistics to back me up, and you have a theory. It's like me saying Jordan never won a championship until he got Pippen, therefor Pippen was more important in winning the titles than Jordan. If you don't accept stats or evidence from watching those championships, then there is no way to prove otherwise since Jordan never won without Pippen.[/quote:68vx1git]

Like you said, I guess we have to agree to disagree. Higher rebounds and fg% for Rondo reflects the strength of his teammates which opens up the court to enable him to get rebounds and get better looks. Steals can be a reflection of his defensive skills, which I never said he was horrible at, but can be aided by strong defense from his teammates leading to the eliciting bad passes from others, or by preventing the opposing PG from making a good pass.

When it comes down to it, I guess we can both agree that basketball is a TEAM sport, and no individual (or three individuals) can bring their talents to a city and call themselves a dynasty without the proper balance of skills on their team. You win as a unit.

 

[Tomlinson21RB]

[quote="Tomlinson21RB":1h8qmgpk][quote="kdailey4315":1h8qmgpk][quote="blazers091":1h8qmgpk]he'd be sebastian telfair. Its easy enough to get that many assists next to 4 future HOFers, but he cant even shoot or make free throws.

Come on now. That's just foolish. I may be in the minority but with out Rondo they do not win that ring.

You, me, and every single one of Pierce, Allen, and KG have said that.

Rondo = Steve Kerr = Derek Fisher.

All very good players that were made great because of who they were playing with. You obviously don't understand the concept of superior players opening things up for everyone else.

Pierce, Allen, and KG have all been in the game for a very long time. They know what to say and how to say it. Giving credit to the little guy is how all veterans euphamize their own talents and success.

Just like how the championship winning teams ALWAYS give the credit to the fans - i'm sure you've seen that nausea over and over again through the years- "We couldn't have done it without you guys, the fans". Yah right - it's almost as overplayed as "I don't feel like i'm losing a daughter, I feel like i'm gaining a son."

I can't believe i'm surrounded by a bunch of Celtic homers.

Agree to disagree, but I'm still right!

Just wondering, how many celtics games do you watch each year?

Obviously not as many as you, but I do know basketball as well. I'm not calling Rondo sebastian telfair, but he does benefit from a superior lineup.[/quote:1h8qmgpk]

No doubt, but I'd argue that his lineup benefits just as much from him as he does from them. Also, the only real argument you're making against him is his inflated assist numbers. That completely ignores the individual stats like steals (league leader last year), rebounds (high for a guard), and FG% (which shows efficiency). His passes aren't just dump offs to guys who hit shots, he's finding them at the exact right time and creating shots for others with his penetration.

I guess we're arguing something that neither of us can prove. I have visual evidence and statistics to back me up, and you have a theory. It's like me saying Jordan never won a championship until he got Pippen, therefor Pippen was more important in winning the titles than Jordan. If you don't accept stats or evidence from watching those championships, then there is no way to prove otherwise since Jordan never won without Pippen.[/quote:1h8qmgpk]

Like you said, I guess we have to agree to disagree. Higher rebounds and fg% for Rondo reflects the strength of his teammates which opens up the court to enable him to get rebounds and get better looks. Steals can be a reflection of his defensive skills, which I never said he was horrible at, but can be aided by strong defense from his teammates leading to the eliciting bad passes from others, or by preventing the opposing PG from making a good pass.

When it comes down to it, I guess we can both agree that basketball is a TEAM sport, and no individual (or three individuals) can bring their talents to a city and call themselves a dynasty without the proper balance of skills on their team. You win as a unit.[/quote:1h8qmgpk]

The last point I'm going to make on this because I think we've reached an "agreement":

This is something that can only come from watching the games and not checking the box scores. While I agree in your overall point that better teammates can create better looks and open up opportunities for rebounds/steals, this just is not the case with Rondo. Sure it happens from time to time, but it's wrong when applied to him the majority of the time. Most of his steals are either on ball defense, or sprinting around the court after a rebound and stripping the ball before the other team makes the outlet pass. Same thing with his rebounds. It's not like KG and Perk/Shaq/Baby box out the entire other team and he just walks to the ball for the rebound. He gets boards that his entire team has given up on. As for the better looks, that is partially true but he misses these "better looks" most of the time because he isn't a good shooter. His points come from driving through traffic and spinning the ball off the glass around defenders.

I do agree that it's a team sport, but it seems like you are making the argument that almost no player has ever been elite in the history of the NBA. Everyone requires help from their teammates. Was Stockton a product of playing with Malone, or was Malone's career better because he played with Stockton?

 

[Rickzcards]

[quote="kdailey4315":19wzri2g][quote="blazers091":19wzri2g]he'd be sebastian telfair. Its easy enough to get that many assists next to 4 future HOFers, but he cant even shoot or make free throws.

Come on now. That's just foolish. I may be in the minority but with out Rondo they do not win that ring.

You, me, and every single one of Pierce, Allen, and KG have said that.

Rondo = Steve Kerr = Derek Fisher.

All very good players that were made great because of who they were playing with. You obviously don't understand the concept of superior players opening things up for everyone else.

Pierce, Allen, and KG have all been in the game for a very long time. They know what to say and how to say it. Giving credit to the little guy is how all veterans euphamize their own talents and success.

Just like how the championship winning teams ALWAYS give the credit to the fans - i'm sure you've seen that nausea over and over again through the years- "We couldn't have done it without you guys, the fans". Yah right - it's almost as overplayed as "I don't feel like i'm losing a daughter, I feel like i'm gaining a son."

I can't believe i'm surrounded by a bunch of Celtic homers.

Agree to disagree, but I'm still right!

Just wondering, how many celtics games do you watch each year?

Obviously not as many as you, but I do know basketball as well. I'm not calling Rondo sebastian telfair, but he does benefit from a superior lineup.[/quote:19wzri2g]

No doubt, but I'd argue that his lineup benefits just as much from him as he does from them. Also, the only real argument you're making against him is his inflated assist numbers. That completely ignores the individual stats like steals (league leader last year), rebounds (high for a guard), and FG% (which shows efficiency). His passes aren't just dump offs to guys who hit shots, he's finding them at the exact right time and creating shots for others with his penetration.

I guess we're arguing something that neither of us can prove. I have visual evidence and statistics to back me up, and you have a theory. It's like me saying Jordan never won a championship until he got Pippen, therefor Pippen was more important in winning the titles than Jordan. If you don't accept stats or evidence from watching those championships, then there is no way to prove otherwise since Jordan never won without Pippen.[/quote:19wzri2g]
His FG% is fairly high because he rarely shoots anything other than driving layups, can't shoot jumpers very well at all. He is a good player and PG though and his team is better because of it. And he needs to learn how to dance, the way he prances around like a little **** at the beginning of the Gatorade commercial is pathetic

 

[Orangejello727]

[quote="brouthercard":woqlgnyc][quote="Tomlinson21RB":woqlgnyc][quote="kdailey4315":woqlgnyc][quote="blazers091":woqlgnyc]he'd be sebastian telfair. Its easy enough to get that many assists next to 4 future HOFers, but he cant even shoot or make free throws.

Come on now. That's just foolish. I may be in the minority but with out Rondo they do not win that ring.

You, me, and every single one of Pierce, Allen, and KG have said that.

Rondo = Steve Kerr = Derek Fisher.

All very good players that were made great because of who they were playing with. You obviously don't understand the concept of superior players opening things up for everyone else.

Pierce, Allen, and KG have all been in the game for a very long time. They know what to say and how to say it. Giving credit to the little guy is how all veterans euphamize their own talents and success.

Just like how the championship winning teams ALWAYS give the credit to the fans - i'm sure you've seen that nausea over and over again through the years- "We couldn't have done it without you guys, the fans". Yah right - it's almost as overplayed as "I don't feel like i'm losing a daughter, I feel like i'm gaining a son."

I can't believe i'm surrounded by a bunch of Celtic homers.

Agree to disagree, but I'm still right!

Just wondering, how many celtics games do you watch each year?

Obviously not as many as you, but I do know basketball as well. I'm not calling Rondo sebastian telfair, but he does benefit from a superior lineup.[/quote:woqlgnyc]

No doubt, but I'd argue that his lineup benefits just as much from him as he does from them. Also, the only real argument you're making against him is his inflated assist numbers. That completely ignores the individual stats like steals (league leader last year), rebounds (high for a guard), and FG% (which shows efficiency). His passes aren't just dump offs to guys who hit shots, he's finding them at the exact right time and creating shots for others with his penetration.

I guess we're arguing something that neither of us can prove. I have visual evidence and statistics to back me up, and you have a theory. It's like me saying Jordan never won a championship until he got Pippen, therefor Pippen was more important in winning the titles than Jordan. If you don't accept stats or evidence from watching those championships, then there is no way to prove otherwise since Jordan never won without Pippen.[/quote:woqlgnyc]

Like you said, I guess we have to agree to disagree. Higher rebounds and fg% for Rondo reflects the strength of his teammates which opens up the court to enable him to get rebounds and get better looks. Steals can be a reflection of his defensive skills, which I never said he was horrible at, but can be aided by strong defense from his teammates leading to the eliciting bad passes from others, or by preventing the opposing PG from making a good pass.

When it comes down to it, I guess we can both agree that basketball is a TEAM sport, and no individual (or three individuals) can bring their talents to a city and call themselves a dynasty without the proper balance of skills on their team. You win as a unit.[/quote:woqlgnyc]

The last point I'm going to make on this because I think we've reached an "agreement":

This is something that can only come from watching the games and not checking the box scores. While I agree in your overall point that better teammates can create better looks and open up opportunities for rebounds/steals, this just is not the case with Rondo. Sure it happens from time to time, but it's wrong when applied to him the majority of the time. Most of his steals are either on ball defense, or sprinting around the court after a rebound and stripping the ball before the other team makes the outlet pass. Same thing with his rebounds. It's not like KG and Perk/Shaq/Baby box out the entire other team and he just walks to the ball for the rebound. He gets boards that his entire team has given up on. As for the better looks, that is partially true but he misses these "better looks" most of the time because he isn't a good shooter. His points come from driving through traffic and spinning the ball off the glass around defenders.

I do agree that it's a team sport, but it seems like you are making the argument that almost no player has ever been elite in the history of the NBA. Everyone requires help from their teammates. Was Stockton a product of playing with Malone, or was Malone's career better because he played with Stockton?[/quote:woqlgnyc]


I agree with some of your points about Rondo. But I also disagree with you about making a general assumption on certain things. Like Malone. Malone was a better player because of Stockton and vice versa. I think Rondo has the skills to be putting up the crazy numbers he does. But I also think the support around him allows him to do that. But that can be said about teams that dont have a huge supporting casts. Like Chris Paul. That guy puts up some crazy numbers for a team that lacks in a few places.

Ive been watching the debate on Rondo being as elite as he is with people putting him as a top 3 guard in the league (Chris Paul, Deron, Nash, Rondo). Do I agree he is tops in the league? No, but its hard not to put him up there based on his stats. I think if you were to put any decent guard in the Boston line up, they would flourish as well. Do you think Deron or Paul would shine their stats if they played for Boston?

 

[Tomlinson21RB]

[quote="Tomlinson21RB":2kbbq74f][quote="brouthercard":2kbbq74f][quote="Tomlinson21RB":2kbbq74f][quote="kdailey4315":2kbbq74f][quote="blazers091":2kbbq74f]he'd be sebastian telfair. Its easy enough to get that many assists next to 4 future HOFers, but he cant even shoot or make free throws.

Come on now. That's just foolish. I may be in the minority but with out Rondo they do not win that ring.

You, me, and every single one of Pierce, Allen, and KG have said that.

Rondo = Steve Kerr = Derek Fisher.

All very good players that were made great because of who they were playing with. You obviously don't understand the concept of superior players opening things up for everyone else.

Pierce, Allen, and KG have all been in the game for a very long time. They know what to say and how to say it. Giving credit to the little guy is how all veterans euphamize their own talents and success.

Just like how the championship winning teams ALWAYS give the credit to the fans - i'm sure you've seen that nausea over and over again through the years- "We couldn't have done it without you guys, the fans". Yah right - it's almost as overplayed as "I don't feel like i'm losing a daughter, I feel like i'm gaining a son."

I can't believe i'm surrounded by a bunch of Celtic homers.

Agree to disagree, but I'm still right!

Just wondering, how many celtics games do you watch each year?

Obviously not as many as you, but I do know basketball as well. I'm not calling Rondo sebastian telfair, but he does benefit from a superior lineup.[/quote:2kbbq74f]

No doubt, but I'd argue that his lineup benefits just as much from him as he does from them. Also, the only real argument you're making against him is his inflated assist numbers. That completely ignores the individual stats like steals (league leader last year), rebounds (high for a guard), and FG% (which shows efficiency). His passes aren't just dump offs to guys who hit shots, he's finding them at the exact right time and creating shots for others with his penetration.

I guess we're arguing something that neither of us can prove. I have visual evidence and statistics to back me up, and you have a theory. It's like me saying Jordan never won a championship until he got Pippen, therefor Pippen was more important in winning the titles than Jordan. If you don't accept stats or evidence from watching those championships, then there is no way to prove otherwise since Jordan never won without Pippen.[/quote:2kbbq74f]

Like you said, I guess we have to agree to disagree. Higher rebounds and fg% for Rondo reflects the strength of his teammates which opens up the court to enable him to get rebounds and get better looks. Steals can be a reflection of his defensive skills, which I never said he was horrible at, but can be aided by strong defense from his teammates leading to the eliciting bad passes from others, or by preventing the opposing PG from making a good pass.

When it comes down to it, I guess we can both agree that basketball is a TEAM sport, and no individual (or three individuals) can bring their talents to a city and call themselves a dynasty without the proper balance of skills on their team. You win as a unit.[/quote:2kbbq74f]

The last point I'm going to make on this because I think we've reached an "agreement":

This is something that can only come from watching the games and not checking the box scores. While I agree in your overall point that better teammates can create better looks and open up opportunities for rebounds/steals, this just is not the case with Rondo. Sure it happens from time to time, but it's wrong when applied to him the majority of the time. Most of his steals are either on ball defense, or sprinting around the court after a rebound and stripping the ball before the other team makes the outlet pass. Same thing with his rebounds. It's not like KG and Perk/Shaq/Baby box out the entire other team and he just walks to the ball for the rebound. He gets boards that his entire team has given up on. As for the better looks, that is partially true but he misses these "better looks" most of the time because he isn't a good shooter. His points come from driving through traffic and spinning the ball off the glass around defenders.

I do agree that it's a team sport, but it seems like you are making the argument that almost no player has ever been elite in the history of the NBA. Everyone requires help from their teammates. Was Stockton a product of playing with Malone, or was Malone's career better because he played with Stockton?[/quote:2kbbq74f]


I agree with some of your points about Rondo. But I also disagree with you about making a general assumption on certain things. Like Malone. Malone was a better player because of Stockton and vice versa. I think Rondo has the skills to be putting up the crazy numbers he does. But I also think the support around him allows him to do that. But that can be said about teams that dont have a huge supporting casts. Like Chris Paul. That guy puts up some crazy numbers for a team that lacks in a few places.

Ive been watching the debate on Rondo being as elite as he is with people putting him as a top 3 guard in the league (Chris Paul, Deron, Nash, Rondo). Do I agree he is tops in the league? No, but its hard not to put him up there based on his stats. I think if you were to put any decent guard in the Boston line up, they would flourish as well. Do you think Deron or Paul would shine their stats if they played for Boston?[/quote:2kbbq74f]

I was actually trying to make that same point on Stockton and Malone and was comparing it to Rondo and the rest of the big four in Boston. Rondo has added productive years to KG, Ray, and Pierce's careers and they've increased his production.

As far as any guard flourishing in Boston, it's been disproven in the 8 games that Rondo has missed the last few years. With the same lineup around the different starters of Marbury, Cassell, House, Tony Allen, and Giddens didn't put up numbers anywhere near what Rondo did.

I think guys like Paul and Williams are made for being go to guys on their team. They require the ball more, and require more shots. That's perfect for a team that doesn't have a lot of offensive weapons. I think one of two things happen if they go to Boston. Either they learn a new role and their numbers drop, or they continue to dominate the ball and create unrest in locker room. Rondo is perfect for the Celtics, but not perfect for New Orleans.

 

[brouthercard]

[quote="brouthercard":14pwtn3a][quote="Tomlinson21RB":14pwtn3a][quote="brouthercard":14pwtn3a][quote="Tomlinson21RB":14pwtn3a][quote="kdailey4315":14pwtn3a][quote="blazers091":14pwtn3a]he'd be sebastian telfair. Its easy enough to get that many assists next to 4 future HOFers, but he cant even shoot or make free throws.

Come on now. That's just foolish. I may be in the minority but with out Rondo they do not win that ring.

You, me, and every single one of Pierce, Allen, and KG have said that.

Rondo = Steve Kerr = Derek Fisher.

All very good players that were made great because of who they were playing with. You obviously don't understand the concept of superior players opening things up for everyone else.

Pierce, Allen, and KG have all been in the game for a very long time. They know what to say and how to say it. Giving credit to the little guy is how all veterans euphamize their own talents and success.

Just like how the championship winning teams ALWAYS give the credit to the fans - i'm sure you've seen that nausea over and over again through the years- "We couldn't have done it without you guys, the fans". Yah right - it's almost as overplayed as "I don't feel like i'm losing a daughter, I feel like i'm gaining a son."

I can't believe i'm surrounded by a bunch of Celtic homers.

Agree to disagree, but I'm still right!

Just wondering, how many celtics games do you watch each year?

Obviously not as many as you, but I do know basketball as well. I'm not calling Rondo sebastian telfair, but he does benefit from a superior lineup.[/quote:14pwtn3a]

No doubt, but I'd argue that his lineup benefits just as much from him as he does from them. Also, the only real argument you're making against him is his inflated assist numbers. That completely ignores the individual stats like steals (league leader last year), rebounds (high for a guard), and FG% (which shows efficiency). His passes aren't just dump offs to guys who hit shots, he's finding them at the exact right time and creating shots for others with his penetration.

I guess we're arguing something that neither of us can prove. I have visual evidence and statistics to back me up, and you have a theory. It's like me saying Jordan never won a championship until he got Pippen, therefor Pippen was more important in winning the titles than Jordan. If you don't accept stats or evidence from watching those championships, then there is no way to prove otherwise since Jordan never won without Pippen.[/quote:14pwtn3a]

Like you said, I guess we have to agree to disagree. Higher rebounds and fg% for Rondo reflects the strength of his teammates which opens up the court to enable him to get rebounds and get better looks. Steals can be a reflection of his defensive skills, which I never said he was horrible at, but can be aided by strong defense from his teammates leading to the eliciting bad passes from others, or by preventing the opposing PG from making a good pass.

When it comes down to it, I guess we can both agree that basketball is a TEAM sport, and no individual (or three individuals) can bring their talents to a city and call themselves a dynasty without the proper balance of skills on their team. You win as a unit.[/quote:14pwtn3a]

The last point I'm going to make on this because I think we've reached an "agreement":

This is something that can only come from watching the games and not checking the box scores. While I agree in your overall point that better teammates can create better looks and open up opportunities for rebounds/steals, this just is not the case with Rondo. Sure it happens from time to time, but it's wrong when applied to him the majority of the time. Most of his steals are either on ball defense, or sprinting around the court after a rebound and stripping the ball before the other team makes the outlet pass. Same thing with his rebounds. It's not like KG and Perk/Shaq/Baby box out the entire other team and he just walks to the ball for the rebound. He gets boards that his entire team has given up on. As for the better looks, that is partially true but he misses these "better looks" most of the time because he isn't a good shooter. His points come from driving through traffic and spinning the ball off the glass around defenders.

I do agree that it's a team sport, but it seems like you are making the argument that almost no player has ever been elite in the history of the NBA. Everyone requires help from their teammates. Was Stockton a product of playing with Malone, or was Malone's career better because he played with Stockton?[/quote:14pwtn3a]


I agree with some of your points about Rondo. But I also disagree with you about making a general assumption on certain things. Like Malone. Malone was a better player because of Stockton and vice versa. I think Rondo has the skills to be putting up the crazy numbers he does. But I also think the support around him allows him to do that. But that can be said about teams that dont have a huge supporting casts. Like Chris Paul. That guy puts up some crazy numbers for a team that lacks in a few places.

Ive been watching the debate on Rondo being as elite as he is with people putting him as a top 3 guard in the league (Chris Paul, Deron, Nash, Rondo). Do I agree he is tops in the league? No, but its hard not to put him up there based on his stats. I think if you were to put any decent guard in the Boston line up, they would flourish as well. Do you think Deron or Paul would shine their stats if they played for Boston?[/quote:14pwtn3a]

I was actually trying to make that same point on Stockton and Malone and was comparing it to Rondo and the rest of the big four in Boston. Rondo has added productive years to KG, Ray, and Pierce's careers and they've increased his production.

As far as any guard flourishing in Boston, it's been disproven in the 8 games that Rondo has missed the last few years. With the same lineup around the different starters of Marbury, Cassell, House, Tony Allen, and Giddens didn't put up numbers anywhere near what Rondo did.

I think guys like Paul and Williams are made for being go to guys on their team. They require the ball more, and require more shots. That's perfect for a team that doesn't have a lot of offensive weapons. I think one of two things happen if they go to Boston. Either they learn a new role and their numbers drop, or they continue to dominate the ball and create unrest in locker room. Rondo is perfect for the Celtics, but not perfect for New Orleans.[/quote:14pwtn3a]

Having a replacement PG for one game doesn't say much, so theoretically, we really will never know how good he really is unless he gets injured and is replaced by a different player for an extended period of time to see how the Celts do without him.

One thing we do know for sure - you are a Rondo-homer! :lol: :lol:

 

[ThoseBackPages]

oh my goodness! longest non-pics quote ever? lol

 

[Tomlinson21RB]

[quote="Tomlinson21RB":2ykwmzlb][quote="brouthercard":2ykwmzlb][quote="Tomlinson21RB":2ykwmzlb][quote="brouthercard":2ykwmzlb][quote="Tomlinson21RB":2ykwmzlb][quote="kdailey4315":2ykwmzlb][quote="blazers091":2ykwmzlb]he'd be sebastian telfair. Its easy enough to get that many assists next to 4 future HOFers, but he cant even shoot or make free throws.

Come on now. That's just foolish. I may be in the minority but with out Rondo they do not win that ring.

You, me, and every single one of Pierce, Allen, and KG have said that.

Rondo = Steve Kerr = Derek Fisher.

All very good players that were made great because of who they were playing with. You obviously don't understand the concept of superior players opening things up for everyone else.

Pierce, Allen, and KG have all been in the game for a very long time. They know what to say and how to say it. Giving credit to the little guy is how all veterans euphamize their own talents and success.

Just like how the championship winning teams ALWAYS give the credit to the fans - i'm sure you've seen that nausea over and over again through the years- "We couldn't have done it without you guys, the fans". Yah right - it's almost as overplayed as "I don't feel like i'm losing a daughter, I feel like i'm gaining a son."

I can't believe i'm surrounded by a bunch of Celtic homers.

Agree to disagree, but I'm still right!

Just wondering, how many celtics games do you watch each year?

Obviously not as many as you, but I do know basketball as well. I'm not calling Rondo sebastian telfair, but he does benefit from a superior lineup.[/quote:2ykwmzlb]

No doubt, but I'd argue that his lineup benefits just as much from him as he does from them. Also, the only real argument you're making against him is his inflated assist numbers. That completely ignores the individual stats like steals (league leader last year), rebounds (high for a guard), and FG% (which shows efficiency). His passes aren't just dump offs to guys who hit shots, he's finding them at the exact right time and creating shots for others with his penetration.

I guess we're arguing something that neither of us can prove. I have visual evidence and statistics to back me up, and you have a theory. It's like me saying Jordan never won a championship until he got Pippen, therefor Pippen was more important in winning the titles than Jordan. If you don't accept stats or evidence from watching those championships, then there is no way to prove otherwise since Jordan never won without Pippen.[/quote:2ykwmzlb]

Like you said, I guess we have to agree to disagree. Higher rebounds and fg% for Rondo reflects the strength of his teammates which opens up the court to enable him to get rebounds and get better looks. Steals can be a reflection of his defensive skills, which I never said he was horrible at, but can be aided by strong defense from his teammates leading to the eliciting bad passes from others, or by preventing the opposing PG from making a good pass.

When it comes down to it, I guess we can both agree that basketball is a TEAM sport, and no individual (or three individuals) can bring their talents to a city and call themselves a dynasty without the proper balance of skills on their team. You win as a unit.[/quote:2ykwmzlb]

The last point I'm going to make on this because I think we've reached an "agreement":

This is something that can only come from watching the games and not checking the box scores. While I agree in your overall point that better teammates can create better looks and open up opportunities for rebounds/steals, this just is not the case with Rondo. Sure it happens from time to time, but it's wrong when applied to him the majority of the time. Most of his steals are either on ball defense, or sprinting around the court after a rebound and stripping the ball before the other team makes the outlet pass. Same thing with his rebounds. It's not like KG and Perk/Shaq/Baby box out the entire other team and he just walks to the ball for the rebound. He gets boards that his entire team has given up on. As for the better looks, that is partially true but he misses these "better looks" most of the time because he isn't a good shooter. His points come from driving through traffic and spinning the ball off the glass around defenders.

I do agree that it's a team sport, but it seems like you are making the argument that almost no player has ever been elite in the history of the NBA. Everyone requires help from their teammates. Was Stockton a product of playing with Malone, or was Malone's career better because he played with Stockton?[/quote:2ykwmzlb]


I agree with some of your points about Rondo. But I also disagree with you about making a general assumption on certain things. Like Malone. Malone was a better player because of Stockton and vice versa. I think Rondo has the skills to be putting up the crazy numbers he does. But I also think the support around him allows him to do that. But that can be said about teams that dont have a huge supporting casts. Like Chris Paul. That guy puts up some crazy numbers for a team that lacks in a few places.

Ive been watching the debate on Rondo being as elite as he is with people putting him as a top 3 guard in the league (Chris Paul, Deron, Nash, Rondo). Do I agree he is tops in the league? No, but its hard not to put him up there based on his stats. I think if you were to put any decent guard in the Boston line up, they would flourish as well. Do you think Deron or Paul would shine their stats if they played for Boston?[/quote:2ykwmzlb]

I was actually trying to make that same point on Stockton and Malone and was comparing it to Rondo and the rest of the big four in Boston. Rondo has added productive years to KG, Ray, and Pierce's careers and they've increased his production.

As far as any guard flourishing in Boston, it's been disproven in the 8 games that Rondo has missed the last few years. With the same lineup around the different starters of Marbury, Cassell, House, Tony Allen, and Giddens didn't put up numbers anywhere near what Rondo did.

I think guys like Paul and Williams are made for being go to guys on their team. They require the ball more, and require more shots. That's perfect for a team that doesn't have a lot of offensive weapons. I think one of two things happen if they go to Boston. Either they learn a new role and their numbers drop, or they continue to dominate the ball and create unrest in locker room. Rondo is perfect for the Celtics, but not perfect for New Orleans.[/quote:2ykwmzlb]

Having a replacement PG for one game doesn't say much, so theoretically, we really will never know how good he really is unless he gets injured and is replaced by a different player for an extended period of time to see how the Celts do without him.

One thing we do know for sure - you are a Rondo-homer! :lol: :lol:[/quote:2ykwmzlb]

I see your point. There was one stretch that was 3 out of four games, but yes I am arguing against an opinion that can't be proven or disproved.

One thing we do know for sure - you are a Rondo-hater!

 

[brouthercard]

I prefer the term "Rondo-skeptic".

I don't hate anyone, I just distrust them.

 

[Tomlinson21RB]

Distrust this!

 

[brouthercard]

Sweet card, of an above average player :lol: :lol:

 

[Rickzcards]

Sweet card, of an above average player :lol: :lol:

The only two PG's I can think of that are better are Deron Williams & Chris Paul, and I'm a Lakers fan. Nash used to be but he is on the downside of his career. The only better stat that I can think of that Rondo has that's better than those two is his assist average. Other than that they are better rounded players. So Rondo isn't a average player.

 

[ThoseBackPages]

Question is......

will the card collecting community ever give a **** about the "point guard"? lol

 

[ThoseBackPages]

i need to pick up a 06/7 Topps box. i dont own any Rondos

 

[Tomlinson21RB]

Question is......

will the card collecting community ever give a **** about the "point guard"? lol

I don't know, but Rondo's cards have exploded recently. They're even up from last year in the playoffs when he was getting a lot of hype during national broadcasts. A BGS 9 Exquisite sold for $470 last week. A two color "patch" from the arm band sold for $325. I got mine with an actual raised patch for $220 right before the Finals last season.

 

[Orangejello727]

[quote="brouthercard":23kjoyqb][quote="Tomlinson21RB":23kjoyqb][quote="brouthercard":23kjoyqb][quote="Tomlinson21RB":23kjoyqb][quote="kdailey4315":23kjoyqb][quote="blazers091":23kjoyqb]he'd be sebastian telfair. Its easy enough to get that many assists next to 4 future HOFers, but he cant even shoot or make free throws.

Come on now. That's just foolish. I may be in the minority but with out Rondo they do not win that ring.

You, me, and every single one of Pierce, Allen, and KG have said that.

Rondo = Steve Kerr = Derek Fisher.

All very good players that were made great because of who they were playing with. You obviously don't understand the concept of superior players opening things up for everyone else.

Pierce, Allen, and KG have all been in the game for a very long time. They know what to say and how to say it. Giving credit to the little guy is how all veterans euphamize their own talents and success.

Just like how the championship winning teams ALWAYS give the credit to the fans - i'm sure you've seen that nausea over and over again through the years- "We couldn't have done it without you guys, the fans". Yah right - it's almost as overplayed as "I don't feel like i'm losing a daughter, I feel like i'm gaining a son."

I can't believe i'm surrounded by a bunch of Celtic homers.

Agree to disagree, but I'm still right!

Just wondering, how many celtics games do you watch each year?

Obviously not as many as you, but I do know basketball as well. I'm not calling Rondo sebastian telfair, but he does benefit from a superior lineup.[/quote:23kjoyqb]

No doubt, but I'd argue that his lineup benefits just as much from him as he does from them. Also, the only real argument you're making against him is his inflated assist numbers. That completely ignores the individual stats like steals (league leader last year), rebounds (high for a guard), and FG% (which shows efficiency). His passes aren't just dump offs to guys who hit shots, he's finding them at the exact right time and creating shots for others with his penetration.

I guess we're arguing something that neither of us can prove. I have visual evidence and statistics to back me up, and you have a theory. It's like me saying Jordan never won a championship until he got Pippen, therefor Pippen was more important in winning the titles than Jordan. If you don't accept stats or evidence from watching those championships, then there is no way to prove otherwise since Jordan never won without Pippen.[/quote:23kjoyqb]

Like you said, I guess we have to agree to disagree. Higher rebounds and fg% for Rondo reflects the strength of his teammates which opens up the court to enable him to get rebounds and get better looks. Steals can be a reflection of his defensive skills, which I never said he was horrible at, but can be aided by strong defense from his teammates leading to the eliciting bad passes from others, or by preventing the opposing PG from making a good pass.

When it comes down to it, I guess we can both agree that basketball is a TEAM sport, and no individual (or three individuals) can bring their talents to a city and call themselves a dynasty without the proper balance of skills on their team. You win as a unit.[/quote:23kjoyqb]

The last point I'm going to make on this because I think we've reached an "agreement":

This is something that can only come from watching the games and not checking the box scores. While I agree in your overall point that better teammates can create better looks and open up opportunities for rebounds/steals, this just is not the case with Rondo. Sure it happens from time to time, but it's wrong when applied to him the majority of the time. Most of his steals are either on ball defense, or sprinting around the court after a rebound and stripping the ball before the other team makes the outlet pass. Same thing with his rebounds. It's not like KG and Perk/Shaq/Baby box out the entire other team and he just walks to the ball for the rebound. He gets boards that his entire team has given up on. As for the better looks, that is partially true but he misses these "better looks" most of the time because he isn't a good shooter. His points come from driving through traffic and spinning the ball off the glass around defenders.

I do agree that it's a team sport, but it seems like you are making the argument that almost no player has ever been elite in the history of the NBA. Everyone requires help from their teammates. Was Stockton a product of playing with Malone, or was Malone's career better because he played with Stockton?[/quote:23kjoyqb]


I agree with some of your points about Rondo. But I also disagree with you about making a general assumption on certain things. Like Malone. Malone was a better player because of Stockton and vice versa. I think Rondo has the skills to be putting up the crazy numbers he does. But I also think the support around him allows him to do that. But that can be said about teams that dont have a huge supporting casts. Like Chris Paul. That guy puts up some crazy numbers for a team that lacks in a few places.

Ive been watching the debate on Rondo being as elite as he is with people putting him as a top 3 guard in the league (Chris Paul, Deron, Nash, Rondo). Do I agree he is tops in the league? No, but its hard not to put him up there based on his stats. I think if you were to put any decent guard in the Boston line up, they would flourish as well. Do you think Deron or Paul would shine their stats if they played for Boston?[/quote:23kjoyqb]

I was actually trying to make that same point on Stockton and Malone and was comparing it to Rondo and the rest of the big four in Boston. Rondo has added productive years to KG, Ray, and Pierce's careers and they've increased his production.

As far as any guard flourishing in Boston, it's been disproven in the 8 games that Rondo has missed the last few years. With the same lineup around the different starters of Marbury, Cassell, House, Tony Allen, and Giddens didn't put up numbers anywhere near what Rondo did.

I think guys like Paul and Williams are made for being go to guys on their team. They require the ball more, and require more shots. That's perfect for a team that doesn't have a lot of offensive weapons. I think one of two things happen if they go to Boston. Either they learn a new role and their numbers drop, or they continue to dominate the ball and create unrest in locker room. Rondo is perfect for the Celtics, but not perfect for New Orleans.[/quote:23kjoyqb]

I guess I didnt look at it that way. Now in perspective, I would agree with you that Deron and Pauls numbers would drop. I guess it comes down to the guards game fitting the rest of the line up and the way they play the game. It helps that Rondo is a fast young player amongst some old guys!!

 

[DaveH]

I'd probably put Rondo 5th. maye 6th...

CP3
Deron
D Rose
Tyreke
Rondo/Nash

 

[ricefan77]

Kyle Lowry is still young and developing, late first round pick who doesn't see much hobby love. He's a fun player to watch, had a couple injuries, but he's pretty dynamic. Stuck behind Aaron Brooks in Houston not helping. he scores, rebounds, steals, assists.

Too bad the rockets aren't very good, but he's starting to put up some decent numbers.

 

[hoopster3977]

i need to pick up a 06/7 Topps box. i dont own any Rondos

I have plenty.