Jeter or Ozzie?

[WizardofOz1982]

I've been having an interesting debate on Facebook about which was better.

Anyone have any thoughts?

 

[linuxabuser]

Better fielder - Ozzie

Better hitter - Jeter

I’m a huge Yankees fan too. Jeter has some absolutely prolific defensive plays (flip play, diving into the 3B seats), but Ozzie is still better.

 

[joey12508]

there pretty close no matter who you pick, jeter was more clutch.
Ozzie
obp
.337
SLG
.328
OPS
.666
jeter
OBP
.377
SLG
.440
OPS
.817

 

[nosterbor]

.328 slugging is just awful. It is enough to make one puke!

 

[bstanwood]

Ozzie may have been a wizard in the field, but in the batters box he was just a nerd playing dungeons and dragons. Jeter is a more complete player.
I think Ozzie also gets built up because the era he primarily started in you're middle defenders weren't expected to hit a ton, he was the best defender of an era in which his position was basically only expected to be a defender.

 

[gt2590]

Jeter.

And by far.

Not a knock on the "Wizard" who was obviously superior defensively, but it's Jeter 9 days a week...

 

[WizardofOz1982]

Ozzie actually put up value at a higher rate than Jeter over their careers, 3.76 fWAR/600 PAs vs 3.47/600 for Jeter.

We all know that Jeter was better offensively but the difference defensively was much bigger than the offensive gap. Jeter was a poor defender overall who had two above average defensive years. Ozzie is the best defensive player ever, no matter the position (though Yadier Molina has an argument). Ozzie literally put up more defensive value in his worst single season than Jeter did in his whole 20 year career. That's substantial.

Obviously my username says I'm an Ozzie fan and I am but I try to be objective. Ripken was a better overall shortstop than Ozzie for instance. I don't think, based on the stats, that Jeter was better than Ozzie.

 

[nosterbor]

Ozzie by far is the worst offensive player in the Hall of Fame. ( non-pitcher ) That in of itself is offensive.

 

[jeffv96masters]

Two different eras and its tough to have the argument because the needs then are not the needs now.
SS Back then didn't need offense they were expected to shut down that side of the field and he's the best ever at it
He also wasn't too shabby at the plate despite people downgrading his offense.
He started slow but worked on his hitting enough to raise it 20 points over his career.
On my list of SS he's 4th overall while Jeter is 1st. I don't just take defensive metrics into consideration either
I consider all around value- defense, offense, clubhouse leadership, clutch hitting, etc etc etc

Would love to hear additional comments about why you consider him superior overall to Jeter
I can tell you seeing him in numerous post seasons he was a major letdown= that glove was marvelous but he killed me watching.


My personal list is below- of course this is "my" opinion you personally are always going to value him over others.

1) DEREK JETER
2) Ernie Banks
3) Cal Ripken
4) OZZIE SMITH

 

[WizardofOz1982]

Ozzie by far is the worst offensive player in the Hall of Fame. ( non-pitcher ) That in of itself is offensive.

This is not even close to true. Ozzie's career wRC+ was 90, 10% below league average. There are several guys right at 90 with him then 4 below him.

Mazeroski - 82 wRC+
Maranville - 83 wRC+
Aparicio - 83 wRC+
Schalk - 88 wRC+

Two different eras and its tough to have the argument because the needs then are not the needs now.
SS Back then didn't need offense they were expected to shut down that side of the field and he's the best ever at it
He also wasn't too shabby at the plate despite people downgrading his offense.
He started slow but worked on his hitting enough to raise it 20 points over his career.
On my list of SS he's 4th overall while Jeter is 1st. I don't just take defensive metrics into consideration either
I consider all around value- defense, offense, clubhouse leadership, clutch hitting, etc etc etc

Would love to hear additional comments about why you consider him superior overall to Jeter
I can tell you seeing him in numerous post seasons he was a major letdown= that glove was marvelous but he killed me watching.


My personal list is below- of course this is "my" opinion you personally are always going to value him over others.

1) DEREK JETER
2) Ernie Banks
3) Cal Ripken
4) OZZIE SMITH

Couple caveats: I'm not ranking Banks at SS. He's a great player but he played less than half his career at SS. I'm not ranking Alex Rodriguez either for the same reason as well as PEDs. If I threw out these caveats then Rodriguez would be 1st (5.59 WAR/600) and Banks 5th or 6th (3.67 WAR/600) on my list.

That said, my modern era list looks something like this with my reasoning:

1. Arky Vaughan - (5.64 WAR/600) He missed 3.5 seasons (ages 32-35) because of a dispute with Leo Durocher but still put up comparable value to everyone else at the top of the board in 70% of the PAs. He's very underrated. Adding those 3.5 post peak seasons in would probably see his WAR/600 fall a bit but his career stat line would look better so a wash.
2. Cal Ripken - (4.3 WAR/600) Top 5 offensive SS of the modern era and he's the 3rd best defensive SS ever. I argued with myself about ranking him #1.
3. Barry Larkin - (4.43 WAR/600) Top 5 offensive SS and if he'd played in another era he'd have 10 Gold Gloves probably instead of finishing 2nd to Ozzie all the time. Criminally underrated.
4. Luke Appling - (4.25 WAR/600) - Scouting the stat line here. Appling seems to rarely be mentioned but he was really, really good. I honestly didn't realize how good he was.
5. Alan Trammell - (4.07 WAR/600) - Nothing really jumped out about Trammell's game a la Ozzie's Defense but he was well above average at everything.
6. Ozzie Smith - (3.76 WAR/600) - He's the best defensive player of all time no matter the position. Great baserunner, Something of an era dependent skillset but that's true of most on this list.
7. Derek Jeter - (3.48 WAR/600) - Great player. 3rd best offensive SS of the modern era. Well below average defensively. In any earlier era there's no way he plays SS. He would have ended up at 1B like Banks. To be honest I don't think he plays SS in the current era if he were coming up now.

Guys who could (probably should) be higher but I have some questions about:
8. Joe Cronin - (4.52 WAR/600) - I just don't have a really good feel for his career other than he was in the bigs for 19 years but only has about 14 seasons worth of PAs. Gonna have to do some more digging there.
9. Lou Boudreau - (5.51 WAR/600) - Going to do some more digging here too. Short career guy and his best seasons were during the WWII era when talent was diluted which always gives me pause.
10. Pee Wee Reese - (3.88 WAR/600) - Lost three early prime (ages 24-26) years to WWII. League average bat with great defense.