Jonathan Sanchez a Royal

[Wes]

Wow Giants came out WAY on top in this one. Stupid move by the Royals. If they were going to trade Melky for pitching, they could've found someone better. Melky is coming off a career year with 200 hits.

Exactly, why its a great trade for the Royals. Cabrera's value will never be higher. Coming into 2011 he had never hit over .280. The Royals desperately needed major league starting pitching and they just got a big time lefty arm. Sanchez has a ton of talent. Also the Royals have several guys' that are waiting to battle for the center field position in Cain, Dyson, and Robinson. The Royals bought way low on Cabrera and sold very high.

Uh, 38-46 career record, 4.26 career ERA with 4 wins last season is a "big time arm"? The Giants made out big in this deal.

In six seasons is averaging 9.4 strike outs per 9 innings. Can throw hard from the left side and at this point the Royals rotation looks like this.
Luke Hochevar
Danny Duffy
Felipe Paulino???
Sean O'Sullivan???

Who cares about strikeouts when you can't win games and help keep the other team from scoring a lot of runs.

Who cares about how well you actually pitch when we can measure your performance by how many runs your team scores for you and how your relievers perform??

 

[sportscardtheory]

Wow Giants came out WAY on top in this one. Stupid move by the Royals. If they were going to trade Melky for pitching, they could've found someone better. Melky is coming off a career year with 200 hits.

Exactly, why its a great trade for the Royals. Cabrera's value will never be higher. Coming into 2011 he had never hit over .280. The Royals desperately needed major league starting pitching and they just got a big time lefty arm. Sanchez has a ton of talent. Also the Royals have several guys' that are waiting to battle for the center field position in Cain, Dyson, and Robinson. The Royals bought way low on Cabrera and sold very high.

Uh, 38-46 career record, 4.26 career ERA with 4 wins last season is a "big time arm"? The Giants made out big in this deal.

Using wins or career record against a Giants pitcher is laughable. Tim Lincecum had a losing record this year with a 2.74 ERA and 220 K's. Matt Cain is 69-74 on his career.

Sanchez isn't a star, but his K rates and Batting Average Against are indicators of strong performance.

If he had a good ERA, your argument would make sense. The guy isn't nearly as good as some make him out to be.

Also, 0-2 with a 4.05 ERA for the post-season in his career. This guy is a BEAST. :lol:

I swear, so many people over-value left-handed pitchers based solely on the fact that they are lefties. An average or mediocre lefty is equal to a great right-hander, an it makes no sense. Production is what matters regardless of whether or not a pitcher is a lefty.

 

[soxrchamps07]

Good trade for the Royal's. Melky's value is at an all time high and in my opinion I don't see him replicating the year he had. Sanchez had some what of a down year, but I would have gladly taken his 4.00 ERA in the Red Sox's rotation this year. And as other people have stated this trade opens up a spot in the outfield for Cain or Robinson and others.

 

[Wes]

Wow Giants came out WAY on top in this one. Stupid move by the Royals. If they were going to trade Melky for pitching, they could've found someone better. Melky is coming off a career year with 200 hits.

Exactly, why its a great trade for the Royals. Cabrera's value will never be higher. Coming into 2011 he had never hit over .280. The Royals desperately needed major league starting pitching and they just got a big time lefty arm. Sanchez has a ton of talent. Also the Royals have several guys' that are waiting to battle for the center field position in Cain, Dyson, and Robinson. The Royals bought way low on Cabrera and sold very high.

Uh, 38-46 career record, 4.26 career ERA with 4 wins last season is a "big time arm"? The Giants made out big in this deal.

Using wins or career record against a Giants pitcher is laughable. Tim Lincecum had a losing record this year with a 2.74 ERA and 220 K's. Matt Cain is 69-74 on his career.

Sanchez isn't a star, but his K rates and Batting Average Against are indicators of strong performance.

If he had a good ERA, your argument would make sense. The guy isn't nearly as good as some make him out to be.

Also, 0-2 with a 4.05 ERA for the post-season in his career. This guy is a BEAST. :lol:

I swear, so many people over-value left-handed pitchers based solely on the fact that they are lefties. An average or mediocre lefty is equal to a great right-hander, an it makes no sense. Production is what matters regardless of whether or not a pitcher is a lefty..

Really? We're going to use the post season to measure how good he is? CC Sabathia's career postseason ERA is 4.81, I guess he's pretty lousy too.

 

[sportscardtheory]

[quote="markakis8":3gvl3zu7]Wow Giants came out WAY on top in this one. Stupid move by the Royals. If they were going to trade Melky for pitching, they could've found someone better. Melky is coming off a career year with 200 hits.

Exactly, why its a great trade for the Royals. Cabrera's value will never be higher. Coming into 2011 he had never hit over .280. The Royals desperately needed major league starting pitching and they just got a big time lefty arm. Sanchez has a ton of talent. Also the Royals have several guys' that are waiting to battle for the center field position in Cain, Dyson, and Robinson. The Royals bought way low on Cabrera and sold very high.

Uh, 38-46 career record, 4.26 career ERA with 4 wins last season is a "big time arm"? The Giants made out big in this deal.

Using wins or career record against a Giants pitcher is laughable. Tim Lincecum had a losing record this year with a 2.74 ERA and 220 K's. Matt Cain is 69-74 on his career.

Sanchez isn't a star, but his K rates and Batting Average Against are indicators of strong performance.

If he had a good ERA, your argument would make sense. The guy isn't nearly as good as some make him out to be.

Also, 0-2 with a 4.05 ERA for the post-season in his career. This guy is a BEAST. :lol:

I swear, so many people over-value left-handed pitchers based solely on the fact that they are lefties. An average or mediocre lefty is equal to a great right-hander, an it makes no sense. Production is what matters regardless of whether or not a pitcher is a lefty..

Really? We're going to use the post season to measure how good he is? CC Sabathia's career postseason ERA is 4.81, I guess he's pretty lousy too.[/quote:3gvl3zu7]

What on earth are you talking about? I used his ENTIRE career as gauge on how good he is. What does C.C. have to do with anything? You are really grasping at straws.

 

[soxrchamps07]

[quote="Zymco":3w1mcyd9][quote="markakis8":3w1mcyd9]Wow Giants came out WAY on top in this one. Stupid move by the Royals. If they were going to trade Melky for pitching, they could've found someone better. Melky is coming off a career year with 200 hits.

Exactly, why its a great trade for the Royals. Cabrera's value will never be higher. Coming into 2011 he had never hit over .280. The Royals desperately needed major league starting pitching and they just got a big time lefty arm. Sanchez has a ton of talent. Also the Royals have several guys' that are waiting to battle for the center field position in Cain, Dyson, and Robinson. The Royals bought way low on Cabrera and sold very high.

Uh, 38-46 career record, 4.26 career ERA with 4 wins last season is a "big time arm"? The Giants made out big in this deal.

Using wins or career record against a Giants pitcher is laughable. Tim Lincecum had a losing record this year with a 2.74 ERA and 220 K's. Matt Cain is 69-74 on his career.

Sanchez isn't a star, but his K rates and Batting Average Against are indicators of strong performance.

If he had a good ERA, your argument would make sense. The guy isn't nearly as good as some make him out to be.

Also, 0-2 with a 4.05 ERA for the post-season in his career. This guy is a BEAST. :lol:

I swear, so many people over-value left-handed pitchers based solely on the fact that they are lefties. An average or mediocre lefty is equal to a great right-hander, an it makes no sense. Production is what matters regardless of whether or not a pitcher is a lefty..

Really? We're going to use the post season to measure how good he is? CC Sabathia's career postseason ERA is 4.81, I guess he's pretty lousy too.[/quote:3w1mcyd9]

What on earth are you talking about? I used his ENTIRE career as gauge on how good he is. What does C.C. have to do with anything? You are really grasping at straws.[/quote:3w1mcyd9]

Your so right, Melky's career averages are so much better in comparison to Sanchez's! Sub 10 homer a year and .270 batting average guys are really hard to come by.

And seriously? Your using wins as a measuring stick for success? Come on man.

 

[chompsmcgee]

I don't care if the Mariners are offered Miguel Cabrera. There are some things you don't deal. And one of them is a strikeout potential-frontline starter who is under financial control for years.

Seattle should lose thier franchise if they trade Pineda this offseason.

Doesn't it depend who they trade him for? What if they move him and Smoak for Votto?

Wes- IMO No- Pitchers who did what Pineda did last year don't grow on trees - you keep them till Free Agency-

No way am I trading Pineda AND Smoak for Votto- Especially with all the money its going to cost to keep Votto thru ARB/ and FA

Don't nitpick the example. The point is that it's ridiculous hyperbole to say that a city should lose its franchise if it trades one player. Nobody is untradable.

Pineda for Evan Longoria and Matt Moore. Pick that apart.

+1

I'd trade him in a heartbeat for the right package. And that's coming from a Pineda supporter.

 

[sportscardtheory]

[quote="sportscardtheory":3fiflmkf][quote="Zymco":3fiflmkf][quote="markakis8":3fiflmkf]Wow Giants came out WAY on top in this one. Stupid move by the Royals. If they were going to trade Melky for pitching, they could've found someone better. Melky is coming off a career year with 200 hits.

Exactly, why its a great trade for the Royals. Cabrera's value will never be higher. Coming into 2011 he had never hit over .280. The Royals desperately needed major league starting pitching and they just got a big time lefty arm. Sanchez has a ton of talent. Also the Royals have several guys' that are waiting to battle for the center field position in Cain, Dyson, and Robinson. The Royals bought way low on Cabrera and sold very high.

Uh, 38-46 career record, 4.26 career ERA with 4 wins last season is a "big time arm"? The Giants made out big in this deal.

Using wins or career record against a Giants pitcher is laughable. Tim Lincecum had a losing record this year with a 2.74 ERA and 220 K's. Matt Cain is 69-74 on his career.

Sanchez isn't a star, but his K rates and Batting Average Against are indicators of strong performance.

If he had a good ERA, your argument would make sense. The guy isn't nearly as good as some make him out to be.

Also, 0-2 with a 4.05 ERA for the post-season in his career. This guy is a BEAST. :lol:

I swear, so many people over-value left-handed pitchers based solely on the fact that they are lefties. An average or mediocre lefty is equal to a great right-hander, an it makes no sense. Production is what matters regardless of whether or not a pitcher is a lefty..

Really? We're going to use the post season to measure how good he is? CC Sabathia's career postseason ERA is 4.81, I guess he's pretty lousy too.[/quote:3fiflmkf]

What on earth are you talking about? I used his ENTIRE career as gauge on how good he is. What does C.C. have to do with anything? You are really grasping at straws.[/quote:3fiflmkf]

Your so right, Melky's career averages are so much better in comparison to Sanchez's! Sub 10 homer a year and .270 batting average guys are really hard to come by.

And seriously? Your using wins as a measuring stick for success? Come on man.[/quote:3fiflmkf]

Are you people blind? I used his ERA too. Whatever, keep-on about how amazing Sanchez is. He's FANTASTIC! Look at all those Ks! lol

 

[braden]

I've never thought all that much of Sanchez but you've got to think the Giants sold low on him while the Royals cashed in nicely on Cabrera.

And a hearty lol to anyone who references a sample of 0-2 as indication of, well, anything. Don't be dense.

 

[sportscardtheory]

I've never thought all that much of Sanchez but you've got to think the Giants sold low on him while the Royals cashed in nicely on Cabrera.

And a hearty lol to anyone who references a sample of 0-2 as indication of, well, anything. Don't be dense.

Are you seriously this dense? Career record, career ERA and career playoff record aren't enough to have an opinion on a pitcher??? WTF else is there other than some deep stats, average allowed and meaningless Ks. I swear you guys are being willfully ignorant.

 

[chompsmcgee]

It's been rumored out of Seattle for a while that the most likely offseason move was trading Pineda,

I'm pretty sure this rumor was propagated by USSMariner blogger Dave Cameron. Haven't heard any other mention of a Pineda deal anyhwere else. So it's more accurate to say, "It's an interesting suggestion by a Mariner blogger that Seattle's best offseason move could be trading Pineda."

 

[SeattleSports]

I don't care if the Mariners are offered Miguel Cabrera. There are some things you don't deal. And one of them is a strikeout potential-frontline starter who is under financial control for years.

Seattle should lose thier franchise if they trade Pineda this offseason.

Doesn't it depend who they trade him for? What if they move him and Smoak for Votto?

Wes- IMO No- Pitchers who did what Pineda did last year don't grow on trees - you keep them till Free Agency-

No way am I trading Pineda AND Smoak for Votto- Especially with all the money its going to cost to keep Votto thru ARB/ and FA

Don't nitpick the example. The point is that it's ridiculous hyperbole to say that a city should lose its franchise if it trades one player. Nobody is untradable.

Pineda for Evan Longoria and Matt Moore. Pick that apart.

+1

I'd trade him in a heartbeat for the right package. And that's coming from a Pineda supporter.

+1

I'm a huge Pineda fan, but I also understand that we have a surplus of pitchers and no offense whatsoever. Moving Pineda in a deal for a Votto or an impact bat needs to be done.

 

[Jaypers]

Personally I don't pay much attention to M's rumors, as their organization is notorious for keeping their potential business deals as close to the vest as humanly possible until it actually happens.

Hultzen is just one example of this. No one saw it coming.

 

[GiantsSuperCollector]

I've never thought all that much of Sanchez but you've got to think the Giants sold low on him while the Royals cashed in nicely on Cabrera.

And a hearty lol to anyone who references a sample of 0-2 as indication of, well, anything. Don't be dense.

Are you seriously this dense? Career record, career ERA and career playoff record aren't enough to have an opinion on a pitcher??? WTF else is there other than some deep stats, average allowed and meaningless Ks. I swear you guys are being willfully ignorant.

Career playoff anything for Sanchez is useless since he has only been in one postseason.

 

[Wes]

I've never thought all that much of Sanchez but you've got to think the Giants sold low on him while the Royals cashed in nicely on Cabrera.

And a hearty lol to anyone who references a sample of 0-2 as indication of, well, anything. Don't be dense.

Are you seriously this dense? Career record, career ERA and career playoff record aren't enough to have an opinion on a pitcher??? WTF else is there other than some deep stats, average allowed and meaningless Ks. I swear you guys are being willfully ignorant.

Two of those three metrics are completely worthless, and one of them is commonly known as flawed. Other metrics better measure the performance of a pitcher. Career record and career postseason record are a ridiculous way to measure a pitcher's performance. Sure, you can have an opinion, but if you're basing it on those numbers, your opinion is based on the wrong things.

 

[braden]

I've never thought all that much of Sanchez but you've got to think the Giants sold low on him while the Royals cashed in nicely on Cabrera.

And a hearty lol to anyone who references a sample of 0-2 as indication of, well, anything. Don't be dense.

Are you seriously this dense? Career record, career ERA and career playoff record aren't enough to have an opinion on a pitcher??? WTF else is there other than some deep stats, average allowed and meaningless Ks. I swear you guys are being willfully ignorant.

I'm with you that Sanchez isn't all that good but your evidence is laughable. A career playoff record of 0-2 tells absolutely nothing about anything. His career record is almost as indicative. His ERA is slightly telling, but still far from the whole story.

Sanchez's main downfall is he walks a ****-ton of guys (almost 5/9IP for his career) and has had a lot of trouble with the longball. Also, in his 'breakout' year where he posted a 3.07 ERA, his FIP was almsot a full run higher showing he got fairly lucky.

But yeah, by all means, the ignorant people are the ones who are ignoring W-L record when showing evidence of his competence, or lack thereof, as a starter.

 

[scotty21690]

Hm, didn't realize Melkys value was that high....was his 11' season a fluke or is he finally living up to his expectations?

 

[sheetskout]

I don't care if the Mariners are offered Miguel Cabrera. There are some things you don't deal. And one of them is a strikeout potential-frontline starter who is under financial control for years.

Seattle should lose thier franchise if they trade Pineda this offseason.

Doesn't it depend who they trade him for? What if they move him and Smoak for Votto?

Wes- IMO No- Pitchers who did what Pineda did last year don't grow on trees - you keep them till Free Agency-

No way am I trading Pineda AND Smoak for Votto- Especially with all the money its going to cost to keep Votto thru ARB/ and FA

Don't nitpick the example. The point is that it's ridiculous hyperbole to say that a city should lose its franchise if it trades one player. Nobody is untradable.

Pineda for Evan Longoria and Matt Moore. Pick that apart.

+1

I'd trade him in a heartbeat for the right package. And that's coming from a Pineda supporter.

Wes is my buddy. But the above trade offer is a ludicrous example.

 

[sportscardtheory]

I've never thought all that much of Sanchez but you've got to think the Giants sold low on him while the Royals cashed in nicely on Cabrera.

And a hearty lol to anyone who references a sample of 0-2 as indication of, well, anything. Don't be dense.

Are you seriously this dense? Career record, career ERA and career playoff record aren't enough to have an opinion on a pitcher??? WTF else is there other than some deep stats, average allowed and meaningless Ks. I swear you guys are being willfully ignorant.

I'm with you that Sanchez isn't all that good but your evidence is laughable. A career playoff record of 0-2 tells absolutely nothing about anything. His career record is almost as indicative. His ERA is slightly telling, but still far from the whole story.

Sanchez's main downfall is he walks a ****-ton of guys (almost 5/9IP for his career) and has had a lot of trouble with the longball. Also, in his 'breakout' year where he posted a 3.07 ERA, his FIP was almsot a full run higher showing he got fairly lucky.

But yeah, by all means, the ignorant people are the ones who are ignoring W-L record when showing evidence of his competence, or lack thereof, as a starter.

We'll play a little game. I'll post all the not-so-good stuff about Jonathan Sanchez, then the Sanchez supporters can post all the good stuff and we will see which side is most influential.

The not-so-good career stats

ERA - 4.26
WHIP - 1.388
W/L Record - 38-46 (45%)
Innings per-162 games - 165
HRs-allowed per-162 games - 17
Walks per-162 games - 88
Total Shutouts - 1 (in 118 carer starts)
Total Complete games - 1 (in 118 career starts)
Post-season career ERA - 4.05
Post-season career W/L record - 0-2
One winning season in 4 as a full-time starter, in that season he led the league in walks and hits-allowed per-9 innings
Player most similar to at age 28 - Ken Kravec

Now post all the good stuff.

 

[Wes]

I've never thought all that much of Sanchez but you've got to think the Giants sold low on him while the Royals cashed in nicely on Cabrera.

And a hearty lol to anyone who references a sample of 0-2 as indication of, well, anything. Don't be dense.

Are you seriously this dense? Career record, career ERA and career playoff record aren't enough to have an opinion on a pitcher??? WTF else is there other than some deep stats, average allowed and meaningless Ks. I swear you guys are being willfully ignorant.

I'm with you that Sanchez isn't all that good but your evidence is laughable. A career playoff record of 0-2 tells absolutely nothing about anything. His career record is almost as indicative. His ERA is slightly telling, but still far from the whole story.

Sanchez's main downfall is he walks a shat-ton of guys (almost 5/9IP for his career) and has had a lot of trouble with the longball. Also, in his 'breakout' year where he posted a 3.07 ERA, his FIP was almsot a full run higher showing he got fairly lucky.

But yeah, by all means, the ignorant people are the ones who are ignoring W-L record when showing evidence of his competence, or lack thereof, as a starter.

We'll play a little game. I'll post all the not-so-good stuff about Jonathan Sanchez, then the Sanchez supporters can post all the good stuff and we will see which side is most influential.

The not-so-good career stats

ERA - 4.26
WHIP - 1.388
W/L Record - 38-46 (45%)
Innings per-162 games - 165
HRs-allowed per-162 games - 17
Walks per-162 games - 88
Total Shutouts - 1 (in 118 carer starts)
Total Complete games - 1 (in 118 career starts)
Post-season career ERA - 4.05
Post-season career W/L record - 0-2
One winning season in 4 as a full-time starter, in that season he led the league in walks and hits-allowed per-9 innings
Player most similar to at age 28 - Ken Kravec

Now post all the good stuff.

I'll happily play this game when you stop including wins and losses in it. Or when you actually address the fact that Melky Cabrera has been a below average hitter for every season of his career except for one. Even complete games and shutouts are pretty pathetic measures of how good a pitcher is.