Jonathan Sanchez a Royal

[JustinVerlander35]

Good move for the Royals. They have a pretty good offense; trading Cabrera away at the peak of his value for a pretty decent starting pitcher was a good move. Their rotation has been horrible for years now. I wonder if they are going to re-sign Bruce Chen?

 

[sportscardtheory]

I've never thought all that much of Sanchez but you've got to think the Giants sold low on him while the Royals cashed in nicely on Cabrera.

And a hearty lol to anyone who references a sample of 0-2 as indication of, well, anything. Don't be dense.

Are you seriously this dense? Career record, career ERA and career playoff record aren't enough to have an opinion on a pitcher??? WTF else is there other than some deep stats, average allowed and meaningless Ks. I swear you guys are being willfully ignorant.

I'm with you that Sanchez isn't all that good but your evidence is laughable. A career playoff record of 0-2 tells absolutely nothing about anything. His career record is almost as indicative. His ERA is slightly telling, but still far from the whole story.

Sanchez's main downfall is he walks a shat-ton of guys (almost 5/9IP for his career) and has had a lot of trouble with the longball. Also, in his 'breakout' year where he posted a 3.07 ERA, his FIP was almsot a full run higher showing he got fairly lucky.

But yeah, by all means, the ignorant people are the ones who are ignoring W-L record when showing evidence of his competence, or lack thereof, as a starter.

We'll play a little game. I'll post all the not-so-good stuff about Jonathan Sanchez, then the Sanchez supporters can post all the good stuff and we will see which side is most influential.

The not-so-good career stats

ERA - 4.26
WHIP - 1.388
W/L Record - 38-46 (45%)
Innings per-162 games - 165
HRs-allowed per-162 games - 17
Walks per-162 games - 88
Total Shutouts - 1 (in 118 carer starts)
Total Complete games - 1 (in 118 career starts)
Post-season career ERA - 4.05
Post-season career W/L record - 0-2
One winning season in 4 as a full-time starter, in that season he led the league in walks and hits-allowed per-9 innings
Player most similar to at age 28 - Ken Kravec

Now post all the good stuff.

I'll happily play this game when you stop including wins and losses in it. Or when you actually address the fact that Melky Cabrera has been a below average hitter for every season of his career except for one.

I don't understand. His losing W/L record makes all the other stuff irrelevant?

 

[Wes]

[quote="braden":26xohk9c]I've never thought all that much of Sanchez but you've got to think the Giants sold low on him while the Royals cashed in nicely on Cabrera.

And a hearty lol to anyone who references a sample of 0-2 as indication of, well, anything. Don't be dense.

Are you seriously this dense? Career record, career ERA and career playoff record aren't enough to have an opinion on a pitcher??? WTF else is there other than some deep stats, average allowed and meaningless Ks. I swear you guys are being willfully ignorant.

I'm with you that Sanchez isn't all that good but your evidence is laughable. A career playoff record of 0-2 tells absolutely nothing about anything. His career record is almost as indicative. His ERA is slightly telling, but still far from the whole story.

Sanchez's main downfall is he walks a shat-ton of guys (almost 5/9IP for his career) and has had a lot of trouble with the longball. Also, in his 'breakout' year where he posted a 3.07 ERA, his FIP was almsot a full run higher showing he got fairly lucky.

But yeah, by all means, the ignorant people are the ones who are ignoring W-L record when showing evidence of his competence, or lack thereof, as a starter.

We'll play a little game. I'll post all the not-so-good stuff about Jonathan Sanchez, then the Sanchez supporters can post all the good stuff and we will see which side is most influential.

The not-so-good career stats

ERA - 4.26
WHIP - 1.388
W/L Record - 38-46 (45%)
Innings per-162 games - 165
HRs-allowed per-162 games - 17
Walks per-162 games - 88
Total Shutouts - 1 (in 118 carer starts)
Total Complete games - 1 (in 118 career starts)
Post-season career ERA - 4.05
Post-season career W/L record - 0-2
One winning season in 4 as a full-time starter, in that season he led the league in walks and hits-allowed per-9 innings
Player most similar to at age 28 - Ken Kravec

Now post all the good stuff.

I'll happily play this game when you stop including wins and losses in it. Or when you actually address the fact that Melky Cabrera has been a below average hitter for every season of his career except for one.

I don't understand. His losing W/L record makes all the other stuff irrelevant?[/quote:26xohk9c]

The debate is pointless if we can't agree on performance measurement.

 

[sportscardtheory]

[quote="sportscardtheory":k6ixucvx][quote="braden":k6ixucvx]I've never thought all that much of Sanchez but you've got to think the Giants sold low on him while the Royals cashed in nicely on Cabrera.

And a hearty lol to anyone who references a sample of 0-2 as indication of, well, anything. Don't be dense.

Are you seriously this dense? Career record, career ERA and career playoff record aren't enough to have an opinion on a pitcher??? WTF else is there other than some deep stats, average allowed and meaningless Ks. I swear you guys are being willfully ignorant.

I'm with you that Sanchez isn't all that good but your evidence is laughable. A career playoff record of 0-2 tells absolutely nothing about anything. His career record is almost as indicative. His ERA is slightly telling, but still far from the whole story.

Sanchez's main downfall is he walks a shat-ton of guys (almost 5/9IP for his career) and has had a lot of trouble with the longball. Also, in his 'breakout' year where he posted a 3.07 ERA, his FIP was almsot a full run higher showing he got fairly lucky.

But yeah, by all means, the ignorant people are the ones who are ignoring W-L record when showing evidence of his competence, or lack thereof, as a starter.

We'll play a little game. I'll post all the not-so-good stuff about Jonathan Sanchez, then the Sanchez supporters can post all the good stuff and we will see which side is most influential.

The not-so-good career stats

ERA - 4.26
WHIP - 1.388
W/L Record - 38-46 (45%)
Innings per-162 games - 165
HRs-allowed per-162 games - 17
Walks per-162 games - 88
Total Shutouts - 1 (in 118 carer starts)
Total Complete games - 1 (in 118 career starts)
Post-season career ERA - 4.05
Post-season career W/L record - 0-2
One winning season in 4 as a full-time starter, in that season he led the league in walks and hits-allowed per-9 innings
Player most similar to at age 28 - Ken Kravec

Now post all the good stuff.

I'll happily play this game when you stop including wins and losses in it. Or when you actually address the fact that Melky Cabrera has been a below average hitter for every season of his career except for one.

I don't understand. His losing W/L record makes all the other stuff irrelevant?[/quote:k6ixucvx]

The debate is pointless if we can't agree on performance measurement.[/quote:k6ixucvx]

You can just post what he has done good/well/great in his career. That's all you have to do. I will be waiting.

 

[vwnut13]

[quote="sportscardtheory":2eoirsf1][quote="braden":2eoirsf1]I've never thought all that much of Sanchez but you've got to think the Giants sold low on him while the Royals cashed in nicely on Cabrera.

And a hearty lol to anyone who references a sample of 0-2 as indication of, well, anything. Don't be dense.

Are you seriously this dense? Career record, career ERA and career playoff record aren't enough to have an opinion on a pitcher??? WTF else is there other than some deep stats, average allowed and meaningless Ks. I swear you guys are being willfully ignorant.

I'm with you that Sanchez isn't all that good but your evidence is laughable. A career playoff record of 0-2 tells absolutely nothing about anything. His career record is almost as indicative. His ERA is slightly telling, but still far from the whole story.

Sanchez's main downfall is he walks a shat-ton of guys (almost 5/9IP for his career) and has had a lot of trouble with the longball. Also, in his 'breakout' year where he posted a 3.07 ERA, his FIP was almsot a full run higher showing he got fairly lucky.

But yeah, by all means, the ignorant people are the ones who are ignoring W-L record when showing evidence of his competence, or lack thereof, as a starter.

We'll play a little game. I'll post all the not-so-good stuff about Jonathan Sanchez, then the Sanchez supporters can post all the good stuff and we will see which side is most influential.

The not-so-good career stats

ERA - 4.26
WHIP - 1.388
W/L Record - 38-46 (45%)
Innings per-162 games - 165
HRs-allowed per-162 games - 17
Walks per-162 games - 88
Total Shutouts - 1 (in 118 carer starts)
Total Complete games - 1 (in 118 career starts)
Post-season career ERA - 4.05
Post-season career W/L record - 0-2
One winning season in 4 as a full-time starter, in that season he led the league in walks and hits-allowed per-9 innings
Player most similar to at age 28 - Ken Kravec

Now post all the good stuff.

I'll happily play this game when you stop including wins and losses in it. Or when you actually address the fact that Melky Cabrera has been a below average hitter for every season of his career except for one.

I don't understand. His losing W/L record makes all the other stuff irrelevant?[/quote:2eoirsf1]

The debate is pointless if we can't agree on performance measurement.[/quote:2eoirsf1]

Isn't it expected that with stats as bad as those you aren't going to have a good W/L Record?

I don't see what the problem is.

 

[lisu]

I'm ok with this trade. The Giants get a CF for next year and get rid of a pitcher who can't seem to control his stuff.

 

[James52411]

I like this trade for KC. You have to have pitching to win and the Royals have very little in their rotation or in MiLB (they have some decent pitching prospects, but no elite guys). Given their financial constraints, their only hope is to develop young arms (like the Rays) or trade for flawed pitchers with upside and hope they blossom. Sanchez is a #4 starter who has good stuff but lacks command. He'll improve their rotation and if the guy ever learns to locate (I'm guessing he won't), he can be a solid #2 starter. Melky Cabrera is a pretty low price to pay for a solid back of the rotation starting pitcher, particularly when you have a bunch of young hitters and little quality pitching to go with it.

 

[uniquebaseballcards]

I'll happily play this game when you stop including wins and losses in it. Or when you actually address the fact that Melky Cabrera has been a below average hitter for every season of his career except for one. Even complete games and shutouts are pretty pathetic measures of how good a pitcher is.

As the guy with the best Melky collection "hands down" (not really), its important to note that Melky just turned 27.


Wins certainly *is* a good stat to use alone - in certain instances. Its the pitcher's primary responsibility to give up fewer runs than the other pitcher, not to completely shut down and dominate the opposition by himself...although that's nice too. Pitchers pitch differently when behind or ahead in the game according to how well his *team* is doing against the other team, its a team sport.

However to paint a more clear picture of how *dominating* an individual pitcher is, all stats would need to be compared. But a complete picture could never be painted using only stats anyway.

 

[James52411]

[quote="sportscardtheory":w8ahsmhw][quote="braden":w8ahsmhw]I've never thought all that much of Sanchez but you've got to think the Giants sold low on him while the Royals cashed in nicely on Cabrera.

And a hearty lol to anyone who references a sample of 0-2 as indication of, well, anything. Don't be dense.

Are you seriously this dense? Career record, career ERA and career playoff record aren't enough to have an opinion on a pitcher??? WTF else is there other than some deep stats, average allowed and meaningless Ks. I swear you guys are being willfully ignorant.

I'm with you that Sanchez isn't all that good but your evidence is laughable. A career playoff record of 0-2 tells absolutely nothing about anything. His career record is almost as indicative. His ERA is slightly telling, but still far from the whole story.

Sanchez's main downfall is he walks a shat-ton of guys (almost 5/9IP for his career) and has had a lot of trouble with the longball. Also, in his 'breakout' year where he posted a 3.07 ERA, his FIP was almsot a full run higher showing he got fairly lucky.

But yeah, by all means, the ignorant people are the ones who are ignoring W-L record when showing evidence of his competence, or lack thereof, as a starter.

We'll play a little game. I'll post all the not-so-good stuff about Jonathan Sanchez, then the Sanchez supporters can post all the good stuff and we will see which side is most influential.

The not-so-good career stats

ERA - 4.26
WHIP - 1.388
W/L Record - 38-46 (45%)
Innings per-162 games - 165
HRs-allowed per-162 games - 17
Walks per-162 games - 88
Total Shutouts - 1 (in 118 carer starts)
Total Complete games - 1 (in 118 career starts)
Post-season career ERA - 4.05
Post-season career W/L record - 0-2
One winning season in 4 as a full-time starter, in that season he led the league in walks and hits-allowed per-9 innings
Player most similar to at age 28 - Ken Kravec

Now post all the good stuff.

I'll happily play this game when you stop including wins and losses in it. Or when you actually address the fact that Melky Cabrera has been a below average hitter for every season of his career except for one.

I don't understand. His losing W/L record makes all the other stuff irrelevant?[/quote:w8ahsmhw]

The debate is pointless if we can't agree on performance measurement.[/quote:w8ahsmhw]

I'll just add that whatever Wes decrees constitutes a meaningful stat (it's so nice to have someone who knows the right answer about everything on these boards), about half of those games were played in the best pitcher's park in the bigs. And yes, I know he pitched better on the road than at home, but I'm sure we'd all agree 10 home or away starts isn't a sufficient sample size to neglect park effects. For my money, the biggest problem with this guy is you can't count on him to take you more than 5 innings. That's a killer for a pitching staff. Despite all this, I still like the trade for KC. Guy's a lefty who has good stuff and is tough to hit.

 

[sportscardtheory]

[quote="braden":jxtjgo3p][quote="sportscardtheory":jxtjgo3p][quote="braden":jxtjgo3p]I've never thought all that much of Sanchez but you've got to think the Giants sold low on him while the Royals cashed in nicely on Cabrera.

And a hearty lol to anyone who references a sample of 0-2 as indication of, well, anything. Don't be dense.

Are you seriously this dense? Career record, career ERA and career playoff record aren't enough to have an opinion on a pitcher??? WTF else is there other than some deep stats, average allowed and meaningless Ks. I swear you guys are being willfully ignorant.

I'm with you that Sanchez isn't all that good but your evidence is laughable. A career playoff record of 0-2 tells absolutely nothing about anything. His career record is almost as indicative. His ERA is slightly telling, but still far from the whole story.

Sanchez's main downfall is he walks a shat-ton of guys (almost 5/9IP for his career) and has had a lot of trouble with the longball. Also, in his 'breakout' year where he posted a 3.07 ERA, his FIP was almsot a full run higher showing he got fairly lucky.

But yeah, by all means, the ignorant people are the ones who are ignoring W-L record when showing evidence of his competence, or lack thereof, as a starter.

We'll play a little game. I'll post all the not-so-good stuff about Jonathan Sanchez, then the Sanchez supporters can post all the good stuff and we will see which side is most influential.

The not-so-good career stats

ERA - 4.26
WHIP - 1.388
W/L Record - 38-46 (45%)
Innings per-162 games - 165
HRs-allowed per-162 games - 17
Walks per-162 games - 88
Total Shutouts - 1 (in 118 carer starts)
Total Complete games - 1 (in 118 career starts)
Post-season career ERA - 4.05
Post-season career W/L record - 0-2
One winning season in 4 as a full-time starter, in that season he led the league in walks and hits-allowed per-9 innings
Player most similar to at age 28 - Ken Kravec

Now post all the good stuff.

I'll happily play this game when you stop including wins and losses in it. Or when you actually address the fact that Melky Cabrera has been a below average hitter for every season of his career except for one.

I don't understand. His losing W/L record makes all the other stuff irrelevant?[/quote:jxtjgo3p]

The debate is pointless if we can't agree on performance measurement.[/quote:jxtjgo3p]

I'll just add that whatever Wes decrees constitutes a meaningful stat (it's so nice to have someone who knows the right answer about everything on these boards), about half of those games were played in the best pitcher's park in the bigs. And yes, I know he pitched better on the road than at home, but I'm sure we'd all agree 10 home or away starts isn't a sufficient sample size to neglect park effects. For my money, the biggest problem with this guy is you can't count on him to take you more than 5 innings. That's a killer for a pitching staff. Despite all this, I still like the trade for KC. Guy's a lefty who has good stuff and is tough to hit.[/quote:jxtjgo3p]

I believe that it is fair trade for both teams, because both got a need. I just don't think that KC did "better". Melky could be a great addition in SF, and Sanchez could be a flop in KC. Sanchez has shown consistently that he just isn't all that good, while Melky is on the up-and-up and clearly getting better.

 

[ronfromfresno]

Terrible trade for the Giants..... ::facepalm:: Again Sabean trades a pitcher to get a sub-par hitter to go in the worst hitters park in the world. To me Sanchez is a young Randy Johnson, if he could figure out how not to walk guys he'd be almost unstoppable. His K ratio and BA against bear that out, plus his no hitter hints at his potential when he puts it all together. Sanchez gets in trouble when he walks guys and has to leave balls over plate to try and get outs. Now the Giants will have issues with a #5 stater next year and will have to find a place for Melky in the line up.....Freddy Sanchez is one of the best #2 hitters in the league when healthy. I think this is another bonehead move by Sabean before free agency starts and the market develops for certain players.

 

[sportscardtheory]

Terrible trade for the Giants..... ::facepalm:: Again Sabean trades a pitcher to get a sub-par hitter to go in the worst hitters park in the world. To me Sanchez is a young Randy Johnson, if he could figure out how not to walk guys he'd be almost unstoppable. His K ratio and BA against bear that out, plus his no hitter hints at his potential when he puts it all together. Sanchez gets in trouble when he walks guys and has to leave balls over plate to try and get outs. Now the Giants will have issues with a #5 stater next year and will have to find a place for Melky in the line up.....Freddy Sanchez is one of the best #2 hitters in the league when healthy. I think this is another bonehead move by Sabean before free agency starts and the market develops for certain players.

Sanchez DOES have the walk problem though. It isn't going away. Out of the top-49 pitchers in batting average-allowed in 2011, Sanchez was dead last in OBP-allowed. He was the 4th or 5th best starting pitcher in that rotation and won't be hard to replace. Melky won't hit many HRs in SF, but he is good at creating runs (he created more runs last season than any Giant player) and the Giants NEED runs. Good trade for the Giants, IMO.

 

[miguelcabrera]

I'll happily play this game when you stop including wins and losses in it. Or when you actually address the fact that Melky Cabrera has been a below average hitter for every season of his career except for one. Even complete games and shutouts are pretty pathetic measures of how good a pitcher is.

As the guy with the best Melky collection "hands down" (not really), its important to note that Melky just turned 27.


Wins certainly *is* a good stat to use alone - in certain instances. Its the pitcher's primary responsibility to give up fewer runs than the other pitcher, not to completely shut down and dominate the opposition by himself...although that's nice too. Pitchers pitch differently when behind or ahead in the game according to how well his *team* is doing against the other team, its a team sport.

However to paint a more clear picture of how *dominating* an individual pitcher is, all stats would need to be compared. But a complete picture could never be painted using only stats anyway.

nice melkey super

 

[onionring9]

Sanchez is as overvalued by their fans as Cabrera is. Neither team made out on this deal, however both teams improved. Good trade.

 

[cjb9421]

-

 

[RL24]

Hm, didn't realize Melkys value was that high....was his 11' season a fluke or is he finally living up to his expectations?

IMO he's one of those guys that collapses under pressure. He wasn't that great for the Yankees, but in KC he was awesome. He will do great in San Fran, unless they are in a playoff race. Then he will choke. It sucks because we will have to wait and see, and around here we like to determine a players greatness using a 2 game sample size.

 

[miguelcabrera]

Hm, didn't realize Melkys value was that high....was his 11' season a fluke or is he finally living up to his expectations?

IMO he's one of those guys that collapses under pressure. He wasn't that great for the Yankees, but in KC he was awesome. He will do great in San Fran, unless they are in a playoff race. Then he will choke. It sucks because we will have to wait and see, and around here we like to determine a players greatness using a 2 game sample size.

i dont see san fran being in a playoff race for a while. said after they won the world series last year they wouldnt make the playoffs this year

 

[sportscardtheory]

...and around here we like to determine a players greatness using a 2 game sample size.

No one did that in this thread.

Sanchez has started 4 playoff games, BTW. His record is 0-2 with a 4.05 ERA in 4 games. No one said that his "greatness" or lack thereof is based on those 4 starts, but they DID happen and to ignore them completely while trying to gauge his entire career to this point would be idiotic.

 

[seitas]

Any Giant fan that doesn't like this move is simply not paying attention. Sanchez was going to be be non-tendered. The Giants were not going to pay him what arbitration was going to award him. The fact that the Giants got a major league player that will start for them, bat at the top of the line-up and play average defense until Gary Brown is ready next year is a HUGE win for Sabean. Sanchez is erratic and while he may straighten himself out, I personally wouldn't bet on it. His walk rate is going to be tough to overcome in the AL where you dont have a pitcher hitting every other inning. Melky meanwhile is 27 and would have been one of the best hitters on the Giants squad in 2011. This is an offensive upgrade for a team desperate for offense. Melky isn't the answer all by himself, but he is part of it.

 

[rico08]

This trade doesn't deserve this much attention IMO, at least for what people are focusing on.

Both key players have had one good season among several mediocre/bad seasons. Gnats fans supporting Sanchez' value with...nothing...is amusing and typical to say the least. Verdugo is a throw in, a project. If the Gnats wanted an offensive upgrade, they got it but Melky doesn't cover enough outfield to make this trade worth this much discussion.

The aspect that is being overlooked is the opening of CF for one Lorenzo Cain in KC.