Jonathan Sanchez a Royal

[Wes]

...and around here we like to determine a players greatness using a 2 game sample size.

No one did that in this thread.

Sanchez has started 3 playoff games, BTW. His record is 0-2 with a 4.05 ERA in 3 games. No one said that his "greatness" or lack thereof is based on those 3 starts, but they DID happen and to ignore them completely while trying to gauge his entire career to this point would be idiotic.

He has four playoff starts.

Let's use your flawed evidence to measure players.

One of the reasons you say Sanchez isn't good is because of his 4.05 playoff ERA. As I posted earlier, CC Sabathia's playoff ERA is 4.81. Conclusion #1. Jonathan Sanchez is better than CC Sabathia.

Let's use another. You say Sanchez isn't good because of his career losing record. Matt Cain also has a career losing record. Matt Cain is a bad pitcher.

Let's use another. You say Sanchez isn't good because he has only had 1 shutout by age 28. When Cliff Lee was 28 he had ZERO career shutouts. Sanchez is better than Cliff Lee.

Still think that those are great measures of a pitcher's performance? Or can we start looking at things that are under a pitcher's control now?

 

[Hollywood]

So you just traded someone who was a throw in last year to whoever would take him, for someone who is better than anyone in your rotation. In a pitching thin market, that's a great deal from a need perspective. Cabrera could do exactly what Torres did this year in SF following a similar career year, nothing. 2 average players, both have the talent to be slightly better than average at times. One plays a position that is more difficult to fill than the other. The Royals will find someone to slide in and be productive in CF without a problem. I don't see how anyone is blind but you. Then again you tried to tell me Votto deserved MVP over Kemp, and that Kemp wasn't a top 5 candidate. So not surprising. Lots of really good pitchers don't have a phenomonal career era. Sanchez is about league average there, while he's also shown he has the stuff to be much better than has been. I'm not saying he'll be better than he's been. He does gives KC something they don't really have in a strikeout pitcher, and immediately becomes their 1A or 1B(obviously a 3-4 on most teams). Find Sanchez very similar to Jorge De La Rosa.

 

[markakis8]

How are shutouts not under a pitcher's control Wes? You either give up a run and lose a shutout or not allow a run and throw too many pitches and force the manager to yank you from the game...

 

[lisu]

Any Giant fan that doesn't like this move is simply not paying attention. Sanchez was going to be be non-tendered. The Giants were not going to pay him what arbitration was going to award him. The fact that the Giants got a major league player that will start for them, bat at the top of the line-up and play average defense until Gary Brown is ready next year is a HUGE win for Sabean. Sanchez is erratic and while he may straighten himself out, I personally wouldn't bet on it. His walk rate is going to be tough to overcome in the AL where you dont have a pitcher hitting every other inning. Melky meanwhile is 27 and would have been one of the best hitters on the Giants squad in 2011. This is an offensive upgrade for a team desperate for offense. Melky isn't the answer all by himself, but he is part of it.

100% agree. The Giants got something for nothing by trading Jonathan Sanchez. They don't have a place for him in their rotation and don't have the patience or the know how to fix him. Good luck Dirty Sanchez. My blood pressure might be lower this year with this trade.

 

[sportscardtheory]

...and around here we like to determine a players greatness using a 2 game sample size.

No one did that in this thread.

Sanchez has started 3 playoff games, BTW. His record is 0-2 with a 4.05 ERA in 3 games. No one said that his "greatness" or lack thereof is based on those 3 starts, but they DID happen and to ignore them completely while trying to gauge his entire career to this point would be idiotic.

He has four playoff starts.

Let's use your flawed evidence to measure players.

One of the reasons you say Sanchez isn't good is because of his 4.05 playoff ERA. As I posted earlier, CC Sabathia's playoff ERA is 4.81. Conclusion #1. Jonathan Sanchez is better than CC Sabathia.

Let's use another. You say Sanchez isn't good because of his career losing record. Matt Cain also has a career losing record. Matt Cain is a bad pitcher.

Let's use another. You say Sanchez isn't good because he has only had 1 shutout by age 28. When Cliff Lee was 28 he had ZERO career shutouts. Sanchez is better than Cliff Lee.

Still think that those are great measures of a pitcher's performance? Or can we start looking at things that are under a pitcher's control now?

Wow. I think you might need to get some help. You are literally making stuff up and arguing it as if I said anything of the sort. C.C. Sabathia...Cliff Lee...Matt Cain. What the F are you talking about? I used Sanchez' career stats, including his post-season stats, to show what he has done in this league. And you are here taking about other pitchers? Who's freaking stats should I use when talking about Jonathan Sanchez, Nolan Ryan's? I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to do or say here. It's completely senseless.

 

[FromKoufaxtoEdwin]

How are shutouts not under a pitcher's control Wes? You either give up a run and lose a shutout or not allow a run and throw too many pitches and force the manager to yank you from the game...

Because a pitcher alone does not completely control whether or not he gives up runs.

The lack of understanding in this thread on how pitchers should be and currently are evaluated by the majority of people in the game is astounding.

I'm not saying Sanchez is the second coming or anything (I'm really not a fan at all. #3/4 type starter for me), but KC made a really nice deal here. Sure, Melky could have "turned a corner," but his career numbers point to last year not being representative of his actual ability. And watching him patrol center at AT&T will bring some LOL moments. Getting a guy you can plug into your rotation for a 1 year wonder, which opens up a spot for Cain, is a nice deal.

 

[sportscardtheory]

So apparently, according to Giants fans, the only things that matter for a starting pitcher are strikeout stats and batting average-allowed... and everything else, including ERA, W/L record, post-season performance, WHIP, walk rate, HRs-allowed rate, innings pitched, ability to pitch complete games and shutouts and general pitching performance is completely meaningless.

Well... I guess you learn something new everyday. :lol:

 

[Wes]

How are shutouts not under a pitcher's control Wes? You either give up a run and lose a shutout or not allow a run and throw too many pitches and force the manager to yank you from the game...

Because a pitcher alone does not completely control whether or not he gives up runs.

The lack of understanding in this thread on how pitchers should be and currently are evaluated by the majority of people in the game is astounding.

I'm not saying Sanchez is the second coming or anything (I'm really not a fan at all. #3/4 type starter for me), but KC made a really nice deal here. Sure, Melky could have "turned a corner," but his career numbers point to last year not being representative of his actual ability. And watching him patrol center at AT&T will bring some LOL moments. Getting a guy you can plug into your rotation for a 1 year wonder, which opens up a spot for Cain, is a nice deal.

Thank you.

...and around here we like to determine a players greatness using a 2 game sample size.

No one did that in this thread.

Sanchez has started 3 playoff games, BTW. His record is 0-2 with a 4.05 ERA in 3 games. No one said that his "greatness" or lack thereof is based on those 3 starts, but they DID happen and to ignore them completely while trying to gauge his entire career to this point would be idiotic.

He has four playoff starts.

Let's use your flawed evidence to measure players.

One of the reasons you say Sanchez isn't good is because of his 4.05 playoff ERA. As I posted earlier, CC Sabathia's playoff ERA is 4.81. Conclusion #1. Jonathan Sanchez is better than CC Sabathia.

Let's use another. You say Sanchez isn't good because of his career losing record. Matt Cain also has a career losing record. Matt Cain is a bad pitcher.

Let's use another. You say Sanchez isn't good because he has only had 1 shutout by age 28. When Cliff Lee was 28 he had ZERO career shutouts. Sanchez is better than Cliff Lee.

Still think that those are great measures of a pitcher's performance? Or can we start looking at things that are under a pitcher's control now?

Wow. I think you might need to get some help. You are literally making stuff up and arguing it as if I said anything of the sort. C.C. Sabathia...Cliff Lee...Matt Cain. What the F are you talking about? I used Sanchez' career stats, including his post-season stats, to show what he has done in this league. And you are here taking about other pitchers? Who's freaking stats should I use when talking about Jonathan Sanchez, Nolan Ryan's? I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to do or say here. It's completely senseless.

What's hard to understand about what I just did? I used your logic to analyze player performance.

Why did I do it? To prove how lousy the measurements that you've chosen are when analyzing pitcher performance.

 

[sportscardtheory]

How are shutouts not under a pitcher's control Wes? You either give up a run and lose a shutout or not allow a run and throw too many pitches and force the manager to yank you from the game...

Because a pitcher alone does not completely control whether or not he gives up runs.

The lack of understanding in this thread on how pitchers should be and currently are evaluated by the majority of people in the game is astounding.

I'm not saying Sanchez is the second coming or anything (I'm really not a fan at all. #3/4 type starter for me), but KC made a really nice deal here. Sure, Melky could have "turned a corner," but his career numbers point to last year not being representative of his actual ability. And watching him patrol center at AT&T will bring some LOL moments. Getting a guy you can plug into your rotation for a 1 year wonder, which opens up a spot for Cain, is a nice deal.

Thank you.

...and around here we like to determine a players greatness using a 2 game sample size.

No one did that in this thread.

Sanchez has started 3 playoff games, BTW. His record is 0-2 with a 4.05 ERA in 3 games. No one said that his "greatness" or lack thereof is based on those 3 starts, but they DID happen and to ignore them completely while trying to gauge his entire career to this point would be idiotic.

He has four playoff starts.

Let's use your flawed evidence to measure players.

One of the reasons you say Sanchez isn't good is because of his 4.05 playoff ERA. As I posted earlier, CC Sabathia's playoff ERA is 4.81. Conclusion #1. Jonathan Sanchez is better than CC Sabathia.

Let's use another. You say Sanchez isn't good because of his career losing record. Matt Cain also has a career losing record. Matt Cain is a bad pitcher.

Let's use another. You say Sanchez isn't good because he has only had 1 shutout by age 28. When Cliff Lee was 28 he had ZERO career shutouts. Sanchez is better than Cliff Lee.

Still think that those are great measures of a pitcher's performance? Or can we start looking at things that are under a pitcher's control now?

Wow. I think you might need to get some help. You are literally making stuff up and arguing it as if I said anything of the sort. C.C. Sabathia...Cliff Lee...Matt Cain. What the F are you talking about? I used Sanchez' career stats, including his post-season stats, to show what he has done in this league. And you are here taking about other pitchers? Who's freaking stats should I use when talking about Jonathan Sanchez, Nolan Ryan's? I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to do or say here. It's completely senseless.

What's hard to understand about what I just did? I used your logic to analyze player performance.

Why did I do it? To prove how lousy the measurements that you've chosen are when analyzing pitcher performance.

It's hard to understand because it's COMPLETELY illogical. You still haven't shown us why you think Sanchez is a good/great pitcher. Been waiting the entire thread for that info. lol I know it's not coming, so don't worry about it.

 

[Wes]

How are shutouts not under a pitcher's control Wes? You either give up a run and lose a shutout or not allow a run and throw too many pitches and force the manager to yank you from the game...

Because a pitcher alone does not completely control whether or not he gives up runs.

The lack of understanding in this thread on how pitchers should be and currently are evaluated by the majority of people in the game is astounding.

I'm not saying Sanchez is the second coming or anything (I'm really not a fan at all. #3/4 type starter for me), but KC made a really nice deal here. Sure, Melky could have "turned a corner," but his career numbers point to last year not being representative of his actual ability. And watching him patrol center at AT&T will bring some LOL moments. Getting a guy you can plug into your rotation for a 1 year wonder, which opens up a spot for Cain, is a nice deal.

Thank you.

[quote="RL24":3iqmf2hu]...and around here we like to determine a players greatness using a 2 game sample size.

No one did that in this thread.

Sanchez has started 3 playoff games, BTW. His record is 0-2 with a 4.05 ERA in 3 games. No one said that his "greatness" or lack thereof is based on those 3 starts, but they DID happen and to ignore them completely while trying to gauge his entire career to this point would be idiotic.

He has four playoff starts.

Let's use your flawed evidence to measure players.

One of the reasons you say Sanchez isn't good is because of his 4.05 playoff ERA. As I posted earlier, CC Sabathia's playoff ERA is 4.81. Conclusion #1. Jonathan Sanchez is better than CC Sabathia.

Let's use another. You say Sanchez isn't good because of his career losing record. Matt Cain also has a career losing record. Matt Cain is a bad pitcher.

Let's use another. You say Sanchez isn't good because he has only had 1 shutout by age 28. When Cliff Lee was 28 he had ZERO career shutouts. Sanchez is better than Cliff Lee.

Still think that those are great measures of a pitcher's performance? Or can we start looking at things that are under a pitcher's control now?

Wow. I think you might need to get some help. You are literally making stuff up and arguing it as if I said anything of the sort. C.C. Sabathia...Cliff Lee...Matt Cain. What the F are you talking about? I used Sanchez' career stats, including his post-season stats, to show what he has done in this league. And you are here taking about other pitchers? Who's freaking stats should I use when talking about Jonathan Sanchez, Nolan Ryan's? I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to do or say here. It's completely senseless.

What's hard to understand about what I just did? I used your logic to analyze player performance.

Why did I do it? To prove how lousy the measurements that you've chosen are when analyzing pitcher performance.

It's hard to understand because it's COMPLETELY illogical. You still haven't show us why you think Sanchez is a good/great pitcher. Been waiting the entire thread for that info. lol I know it's not coming, so don't worry about it.[/quote:3iqmf2hu]

Why is it illogical? Either W/L record, playoff ERA and career shutouts are a good way to measure a pitcher or they aren't. I've shown why I don't think they are. You've said nothing to refute it other than to say that I need to get some help and that I'm making up things. Except the facts that I stated above are just that, facts.

 

[sportscardtheory]

Funny that I posted the SIMPLE challenge for Sanchez supporters to post what he has done well in the big leagues... and not ONE person has posted anything of the sort for pages and pages.

 

[sportscardtheory]

How are shutouts not under a pitcher's control Wes? You either give up a run and lose a shutout or not allow a run and throw too many pitches and force the manager to yank you from the game...

Because a pitcher alone does not completely control whether or not he gives up runs.

The lack of understanding in this thread on how pitchers should be and currently are evaluated by the majority of people in the game is astounding.

I'm not saying Sanchez is the second coming or anything (I'm really not a fan at all. #3/4 type starter for me), but KC made a really nice deal here. Sure, Melky could have "turned a corner," but his career numbers point to last year not being representative of his actual ability. And watching him patrol center at AT&T will bring some LOL moments. Getting a guy you can plug into your rotation for a 1 year wonder, which opens up a spot for Cain, is a nice deal.

Thank you.

[quote="sportscardtheory":2zg8q9wt][quote="RL24":2zg8q9wt]...and around here we like to determine a players greatness using a 2 game sample size.

No one did that in this thread.

Sanchez has started 3 playoff games, BTW. His record is 0-2 with a 4.05 ERA in 3 games. No one said that his "greatness" or lack thereof is based on those 3 starts, but they DID happen and to ignore them completely while trying to gauge his entire career to this point would be idiotic.

He has four playoff starts.

Let's use your flawed evidence to measure players.

One of the reasons you say Sanchez isn't good is because of his 4.05 playoff ERA. As I posted earlier, CC Sabathia's playoff ERA is 4.81. Conclusion #1. Jonathan Sanchez is better than CC Sabathia.

Let's use another. You say Sanchez isn't good because of his career losing record. Matt Cain also has a career losing record. Matt Cain is a bad pitcher.

Let's use another. You say Sanchez isn't good because he has only had 1 shutout by age 28. When Cliff Lee was 28 he had ZERO career shutouts. Sanchez is better than Cliff Lee.

Still think that those are great measures of a pitcher's performance? Or can we start looking at things that are under a pitcher's control now?

Wow. I think you might need to get some help. You are literally making stuff up and arguing it as if I said anything of the sort. C.C. Sabathia...Cliff Lee...Matt Cain. What the F are you talking about? I used Sanchez' career stats, including his post-season stats, to show what he has done in this league. And you are here taking about other pitchers? Who's freaking stats should I use when talking about Jonathan Sanchez, Nolan Ryan's? I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to do or say here. It's completely senseless.

What's hard to understand about what I just did? I used your logic to analyze player performance.

Why did I do it? To prove how lousy the measurements that you've chosen are when analyzing pitcher performance.

It's hard to understand because it's COMPLETELY illogical. You still haven't show us why you think Sanchez is a good/great pitcher. Been waiting the entire thread for that info. lol I know it's not coming, so don't worry about it.[/quote:2zg8q9wt]

Why is it illogical? Either W/L record, playoff ERA and career shutouts are a good way to measure a pitcher or they aren't. I've shown why I don't think they are. You've said nothing to refute it other than to say that I need to get some help and that I'm making up things. Except the facts that I stated above are just that, facts.[/quote:2zg8q9wt]

You truly don't understand that I posted those stats along with MANY OTHER stats, do you. ::facepalm::

I'm starting to feel bad for you...

 

[Wes]

[quote="markakis8":21uv4ocd]How are shutouts not under a pitcher's control Wes? You either give up a run and lose a shutout or not allow a run and throw too many pitches and force the manager to yank you from the game...

Because a pitcher alone does not completely control whether or not he gives up runs.

The lack of understanding in this thread on how pitchers should be and currently are evaluated by the majority of people in the game is astounding.

I'm not saying Sanchez is the second coming or anything (I'm really not a fan at all. #3/4 type starter for me), but KC made a really nice deal here. Sure, Melky could have "turned a corner," but his career numbers point to last year not being representative of his actual ability. And watching him patrol center at AT&T will bring some LOL moments. Getting a guy you can plug into your rotation for a 1 year wonder, which opens up a spot for Cain, is a nice deal.

Thank you.

[quote="sportscardtheory":21uv4ocd][quote="RL24":21uv4ocd]...and around here we like to determine a players greatness using a 2 game sample size.

No one did that in this thread.

Sanchez has started 3 playoff games, BTW. His record is 0-2 with a 4.05 ERA in 3 games. No one said that his "greatness" or lack thereof is based on those 3 starts, but they DID happen and to ignore them completely while trying to gauge his entire career to this point would be idiotic.

He has four playoff starts.

Let's use your flawed evidence to measure players.

One of the reasons you say Sanchez isn't good is because of his 4.05 playoff ERA. As I posted earlier, CC Sabathia's playoff ERA is 4.81. Conclusion #1. Jonathan Sanchez is better than CC Sabathia.

Let's use another. You say Sanchez isn't good because of his career losing record. Matt Cain also has a career losing record. Matt Cain is a bad pitcher.

Let's use another. You say Sanchez isn't good because he has only had 1 shutout by age 28. When Cliff Lee was 28 he had ZERO career shutouts. Sanchez is better than Cliff Lee.

Still think that those are great measures of a pitcher's performance? Or can we start looking at things that are under a pitcher's control now?

Wow. I think you might need to get some help. You are literally making stuff up and arguing it as if I said anything of the sort. C.C. Sabathia...Cliff Lee...Matt Cain. What the F are you talking about? I used Sanchez' career stats, including his post-season stats, to show what he has done in this league. And you are here taking about other pitchers? Who's freaking stats should I use when talking about Jonathan Sanchez, Nolan Ryan's? I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to do or say here. It's completely senseless.

What's hard to understand about what I just did? I used your logic to analyze player performance.

Why did I do it? To prove how lousy the measurements that you've chosen are when analyzing pitcher performance.

It's hard to understand because it's COMPLETELY illogical. You still haven't show us why you think Sanchez is a good/great pitcher. Been waiting the entire thread for that info. lol I know it's not coming, so don't worry about it.[/quote:21uv4ocd]

Why is it illogical? Either W/L record, playoff ERA and career shutouts are a good way to measure a pitcher or they aren't. I've shown why I don't think they are. You've said nothing to refute it other than to say that I need to get some help and that I'm making up things. Except the facts that I stated above are just that, facts.[/quote:21uv4ocd]

You truly don't understand that I posted those stats along with MANY OTHER stats, do you. ::facepalm::[/quote:21uv4ocd]

You: 300 IP 30-0 Record, 1 shutout, 0 strikeouts, 600 hits allowed, .400 BAA.
Me: 300 IP 0-30 Record, 0 shutouts, 900 strikeouts, 0 hits allowed, .000 BAA.

Who pitched better?

 

[sportscardtheory]

Oh my lord. I hope others are seeing this, because no one would believe if I told them.

 

[JustinVerlander35]

[quote="FromKoufaxtoEdwin":1rmav7wv][quote="markakis8":1rmav7wv]How are shutouts not under a pitcher's control Wes? You either give up a run and lose a shutout or not allow a run and throw too many pitches and force the manager to yank you from the game...

Because a pitcher alone does not completely control whether or not he gives up runs.

The lack of understanding in this thread on how pitchers should be and currently are evaluated by the majority of people in the game is astounding.

I'm not saying Sanchez is the second coming or anything (I'm really not a fan at all. #3/4 type starter for me), but KC made a really nice deal here. Sure, Melky could have "turned a corner," but his career numbers point to last year not being representative of his actual ability. And watching him patrol center at AT&T will bring some LOL moments. Getting a guy you can plug into your rotation for a 1 year wonder, which opens up a spot for Cain, is a nice deal.

Thank you.

[quote="sportscardtheory":1rmav7wv][quote="RL24":1rmav7wv]...and around here we like to determine a players greatness using a 2 game sample size.

No one did that in this thread.

Sanchez has started 3 playoff games, BTW. His record is 0-2 with a 4.05 ERA in 3 games. No one said that his "greatness" or lack thereof is based on those 3 starts, but they DID happen and to ignore them completely while trying to gauge his entire career to this point would be idiotic.

He has four playoff starts.

Let's use your flawed evidence to measure players.

One of the reasons you say Sanchez isn't good is because of his 4.05 playoff ERA. As I posted earlier, CC Sabathia's playoff ERA is 4.81. Conclusion #1. Jonathan Sanchez is better than CC Sabathia.

Let's use another. You say Sanchez isn't good because of his career losing record. Matt Cain also has a career losing record. Matt Cain is a bad pitcher.

Let's use another. You say Sanchez isn't good because he has only had 1 shutout by age 28. When Cliff Lee was 28 he had ZERO career shutouts. Sanchez is better than Cliff Lee.

Still think that those are great measures of a pitcher's performance? Or can we start looking at things that are under a pitcher's control now?

Wow. I think you might need to get some help. You are literally making stuff up and arguing it as if I said anything of the sort. C.C. Sabathia...Cliff Lee...Matt Cain. What the F are you talking about? I used Sanchez' career stats, including his post-season stats, to show what he has done in this league. And you are here taking about other pitchers? Who's freaking stats should I use when talking about Jonathan Sanchez, Nolan Ryan's? I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to do or say here. It's completely senseless.

What's hard to understand about what I just did? I used your logic to analyze player performance.

Why did I do it? To prove how lousy the measurements that you've chosen are when analyzing pitcher performance.

It's hard to understand because it's COMPLETELY illogical. You still haven't show us why you think Sanchez is a good/great pitcher. Been waiting the entire thread for that info. lol I know it's not coming, so don't worry about it.[/quote:1rmav7wv]

Why is it illogical? Either W/L record, playoff ERA and career shutouts are a good way to measure a pitcher or they aren't. I've shown why I don't think they are. You've said nothing to refute it other than to say that I need to get some help and that I'm making up things. Except the facts that I stated above are just that, facts.[/quote:1rmav7wv]

You truly don't understand that I posted those stats along with MANY OTHER stats, do you. ::facepalm::[/quote:1rmav7wv]

You: 300 IP 30-0 Record, 1 shutout, 0 strikeouts, 600 hits allowed, .400 BAA.
Me: 300 IP 0-30 Record, 0 shutouts, 900 strikeouts, 0 hits allowed, .000 BAA.

Who pitched better?[/quote:1rmav7wv]

I think those stats are a bit too far over the top.

 

[Wes]

[quote="Wes":2hhf9mxy][quote="FromKoufaxtoEdwin":2hhf9mxy][quote="markakis8":2hhf9mxy]How are shutouts not under a pitcher's control Wes? You either give up a run and lose a shutout or not allow a run and throw too many pitches and force the manager to yank you from the game...

Because a pitcher alone does not completely control whether or not he gives up runs.

The lack of understanding in this thread on how pitchers should be and currently are evaluated by the majority of people in the game is astounding.

I'm not saying Sanchez is the second coming or anything (I'm really not a fan at all. #3/4 type starter for me), but KC made a really nice deal here. Sure, Melky could have "turned a corner," but his career numbers point to last year not being representative of his actual ability. And watching him patrol center at AT&T will bring some LOL moments. Getting a guy you can plug into your rotation for a 1 year wonder, which opens up a spot for Cain, is a nice deal.

Thank you.

[quote="sportscardtheory":2hhf9mxy][quote="RL24":2hhf9mxy]...and around here we like to determine a players greatness using a 2 game sample size.

No one did that in this thread.

Sanchez has started 3 playoff games, BTW. His record is 0-2 with a 4.05 ERA in 3 games. No one said that his "greatness" or lack thereof is based on those 3 starts, but they DID happen and to ignore them completely while trying to gauge his entire career to this point would be idiotic.

He has four playoff starts.

Let's use your flawed evidence to measure players.

One of the reasons you say Sanchez isn't good is because of his 4.05 playoff ERA. As I posted earlier, CC Sabathia's playoff ERA is 4.81. Conclusion #1. Jonathan Sanchez is better than CC Sabathia.

Let's use another. You say Sanchez isn't good because of his career losing record. Matt Cain also has a career losing record. Matt Cain is a bad pitcher.

Let's use another. You say Sanchez isn't good because he has only had 1 shutout by age 28. When Cliff Lee was 28 he had ZERO career shutouts. Sanchez is better than Cliff Lee.

Still think that those are great measures of a pitcher's performance? Or can we start looking at things that are under a pitcher's control now?

Wow. I think you might need to get some help. You are literally making stuff up and arguing it as if I said anything of the sort. C.C. Sabathia...Cliff Lee...Matt Cain. What the F are you talking about? I used Sanchez' career stats, including his post-season stats, to show what he has done in this league. And you are here taking about other pitchers? Who's freaking stats should I use when talking about Jonathan Sanchez, Nolan Ryan's? I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to do or say here. It's completely senseless.

What's hard to understand about what I just did? I used your logic to analyze player performance.

Why did I do it? To prove how lousy the measurements that you've chosen are when analyzing pitcher performance.

It's hard to understand because it's COMPLETELY illogical. You still haven't show us why you think Sanchez is a good/great pitcher. Been waiting the entire thread for that info. lol I know it's not coming, so don't worry about it.[/quote:2hhf9mxy]

Why is it illogical? Either W/L record, playoff ERA and career shutouts are a good way to measure a pitcher or they aren't. I've shown why I don't think they are. You've said nothing to refute it other than to say that I need to get some help and that I'm making up things. Except the facts that I stated above are just that, facts.[/quote:2hhf9mxy]

You truly don't understand that I posted those stats along with MANY OTHER stats, do you. ::facepalm::[/quote:2hhf9mxy]

You: 300 IP 30-0 Record, 1 shutout, 0 strikeouts, 600 hits allowed, .400 BAA.
Me: 300 IP 0-30 Record, 0 shutouts, 900 strikeouts, 0 hits allowed, .000 BAA.

Who pitched better?[/quote:2hhf9mxy]

I think those stats are a bit too far over the top.[/quote:2hhf9mxy]

You haven't seen me pitch!

 

[JustinVerlander35]

[quote="sportscardtheory":2qqi2w83][quote="Wes":2qqi2w83][quote="FromKoufaxtoEdwin":2qqi2w83][quote="markakis8":2qqi2w83]How are shutouts not under a pitcher's control Wes? You either give up a run and lose a shutout or not allow a run and throw too many pitches and force the manager to yank you from the game...

Because a pitcher alone does not completely control whether or not he gives up runs.

The lack of understanding in this thread on how pitchers should be and currently are evaluated by the majority of people in the game is astounding.

I'm not saying Sanchez is the second coming or anything (I'm really not a fan at all. #3/4 type starter for me), but KC made a really nice deal here. Sure, Melky could have "turned a corner," but his career numbers point to last year not being representative of his actual ability. And watching him patrol center at AT&T will bring some LOL moments. Getting a guy you can plug into your rotation for a 1 year wonder, which opens up a spot for Cain, is a nice deal.

Thank you.

[quote="sportscardtheory":2qqi2w83][quote="RL24":2qqi2w83]...and around here we like to determine a players greatness using a 2 game sample size.

No one did that in this thread.

Sanchez has started 3 playoff games, BTW. His record is 0-2 with a 4.05 ERA in 3 games. No one said that his "greatness" or lack thereof is based on those 3 starts, but they DID happen and to ignore them completely while trying to gauge his entire career to this point would be idiotic.

He has four playoff starts.

Let's use your flawed evidence to measure players.

One of the reasons you say Sanchez isn't good is because of his 4.05 playoff ERA. As I posted earlier, CC Sabathia's playoff ERA is 4.81. Conclusion #1. Jonathan Sanchez is better than CC Sabathia.

Let's use another. You say Sanchez isn't good because of his career losing record. Matt Cain also has a career losing record. Matt Cain is a bad pitcher.

Let's use another. You say Sanchez isn't good because he has only had 1 shutout by age 28. When Cliff Lee was 28 he had ZERO career shutouts. Sanchez is better than Cliff Lee.

Still think that those are great measures of a pitcher's performance? Or can we start looking at things that are under a pitcher's control now?

Wow. I think you might need to get some help. You are literally making stuff up and arguing it as if I said anything of the sort. C.C. Sabathia...Cliff Lee...Matt Cain. What the F are you talking about? I used Sanchez' career stats, including his post-season stats, to show what he has done in this league. And you are here taking about other pitchers? Who's freaking stats should I use when talking about Jonathan Sanchez, Nolan Ryan's? I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to do or say here. It's completely senseless.

What's hard to understand about what I just did? I used your logic to analyze player performance.

Why did I do it? To prove how lousy the measurements that you've chosen are when analyzing pitcher performance.

It's hard to understand because it's COMPLETELY illogical. You still haven't show us why you think Sanchez is a good/great pitcher. Been waiting the entire thread for that info. lol I know it's not coming, so don't worry about it.[/quote:2qqi2w83]

Why is it illogical? Either W/L record, playoff ERA and career shutouts are a good way to measure a pitcher or they aren't. I've shown why I don't think they are. You've said nothing to refute it other than to say that I need to get some help and that I'm making up things. Except the facts that I stated above are just that, facts.[/quote:2qqi2w83]

You truly don't understand that I posted those stats along with MANY OTHER stats, do you. ::facepalm::[/quote:2qqi2w83]

You: 300 IP 30-0 Record, 1 shutout, 0 strikeouts, 600 hits allowed, .400 BAA.
Me: 300 IP 0-30 Record, 0 shutouts, 900 strikeouts, 0 hits allowed, .000 BAA.

Who pitched better?[/quote:2qqi2w83]

I think those stats are a bit too far over the top.[/quote:2qqi2w83]

You haven't seen me pitch![/quote:2qqi2w83]

Well, you must play on a team with a but of 3-year-old's. You'd be the only pitcher in MLB history to have 30 no-hitters and loose every-game. I'd like to see your K/9 :lol:

 

[Wes]

[quote="Wes":3jxzya1d][quote="sportscardtheory":3jxzya1d][quote="Wes":3jxzya1d][quote="FromKoufaxtoEdwin":3jxzya1d][quote="markakis8":3jxzya1d]How are shutouts not under a pitcher's control Wes? You either give up a run and lose a shutout or not allow a run and throw too many pitches and force the manager to yank you from the game...

Because a pitcher alone does not completely control whether or not he gives up runs.

The lack of understanding in this thread on how pitchers should be and currently are evaluated by the majority of people in the game is astounding.

I'm not saying Sanchez is the second coming or anything (I'm really not a fan at all. #3/4 type starter for me), but KC made a really nice deal here. Sure, Melky could have "turned a corner," but his career numbers point to last year not being representative of his actual ability. And watching him patrol center at AT&T will bring some LOL moments. Getting a guy you can plug into your rotation for a 1 year wonder, which opens up a spot for Cain, is a nice deal.

Thank you.

[quote="sportscardtheory":3jxzya1d][quote="RL24":3jxzya1d]...and around here we like to determine a players greatness using a 2 game sample size.

No one did that in this thread.

Sanchez has started 3 playoff games, BTW. His record is 0-2 with a 4.05 ERA in 3 games. No one said that his "greatness" or lack thereof is based on those 3 starts, but they DID happen and to ignore them completely while trying to gauge his entire career to this point would be idiotic.

He has four playoff starts.

Let's use your flawed evidence to measure players.

One of the reasons you say Sanchez isn't good is because of his 4.05 playoff ERA. As I posted earlier, CC Sabathia's playoff ERA is 4.81. Conclusion #1. Jonathan Sanchez is better than CC Sabathia.

Let's use another. You say Sanchez isn't good because of his career losing record. Matt Cain also has a career losing record. Matt Cain is a bad pitcher.

Let's use another. You say Sanchez isn't good because he has only had 1 shutout by age 28. When Cliff Lee was 28 he had ZERO career shutouts. Sanchez is better than Cliff Lee.

Still think that those are great measures of a pitcher's performance? Or can we start looking at things that are under a pitcher's control now?

Wow. I think you might need to get some help. You are literally making stuff up and arguing it as if I said anything of the sort. C.C. Sabathia...Cliff Lee...Matt Cain. What the F are you talking about? I used Sanchez' career stats, including his post-season stats, to show what he has done in this league. And you are here taking about other pitchers? Who's freaking stats should I use when talking about Jonathan Sanchez, Nolan Ryan's? I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to do or say here. It's completely senseless.

What's hard to understand about what I just did? I used your logic to analyze player performance.

Why did I do it? To prove how lousy the measurements that you've chosen are when analyzing pitcher performance.

It's hard to understand because it's COMPLETELY illogical. You still haven't show us why you think Sanchez is a good/great pitcher. Been waiting the entire thread for that info. lol I know it's not coming, so don't worry about it.[/quote:3jxzya1d]

Why is it illogical? Either W/L record, playoff ERA and career shutouts are a good way to measure a pitcher or they aren't. I've shown why I don't think they are. You've said nothing to refute it other than to say that I need to get some help and that I'm making up things. Except the facts that I stated above are just that, facts.[/quote:3jxzya1d]

You truly don't understand that I posted those stats along with MANY OTHER stats, do you. ::facepalm::[/quote:3jxzya1d]

You: 300 IP 30-0 Record, 1 shutout, 0 strikeouts, 600 hits allowed, .400 BAA.
Me: 300 IP 0-30 Record, 0 shutouts, 900 strikeouts, 0 hits allowed, .000 BAA.

Who pitched better?[/quote:3jxzya1d]

I think those stats are a bit too far over the top.[/quote:3jxzya1d]

You haven't seen me pitch![/quote:3jxzya1d]

Well, you must play on a team with a but of 3-year-old's. You'd be the only pitcher in MLB history to have 30 no-hitters and loose every-game. I'd like to see your K/9 :lol:[/quote:3jxzya1d]

Well it's 27/9. I have a pretty bad supporting cast. Lots of errors and no run support

 

[JustinVerlander35]

[quote="sportscardtheory":3dez5x7a][quote="Wes":3dez5x7a][quote="sportscardtheory":3dez5x7a][quote="Wes":3dez5x7a][quote="FromKoufaxtoEdwin":3dez5x7a][quote="markakis8":3dez5x7a]How are shutouts not under a pitcher's control Wes? You either give up a run and lose a shutout or not allow a run and throw too many pitches and force the manager to yank you from the game...

Because a pitcher alone does not completely control whether or not he gives up runs.

The lack of understanding in this thread on how pitchers should be and currently are evaluated by the majority of people in the game is astounding.

I'm not saying Sanchez is the second coming or anything (I'm really not a fan at all. #3/4 type starter for me), but KC made a really nice deal here. Sure, Melky could have "turned a corner," but his career numbers point to last year not being representative of his actual ability. And watching him patrol center at AT&T will bring some LOL moments. Getting a guy you can plug into your rotation for a 1 year wonder, which opens up a spot for Cain, is a nice deal.

Thank you.

[quote="sportscardtheory":3dez5x7a][quote="RL24":3dez5x7a]...and around here we like to determine a players greatness using a 2 game sample size.

No one did that in this thread.

Sanchez has started 3 playoff games, BTW. His record is 0-2 with a 4.05 ERA in 3 games. No one said that his "greatness" or lack thereof is based on those 3 starts, but they DID happen and to ignore them completely while trying to gauge his entire career to this point would be idiotic.

He has four playoff starts.

Let's use your flawed evidence to measure players.

One of the reasons you say Sanchez isn't good is because of his 4.05 playoff ERA. As I posted earlier, CC Sabathia's playoff ERA is 4.81. Conclusion #1. Jonathan Sanchez is better than CC Sabathia.

Let's use another. You say Sanchez isn't good because of his career losing record. Matt Cain also has a career losing record. Matt Cain is a bad pitcher.

Let's use another. You say Sanchez isn't good because he has only had 1 shutout by age 28. When Cliff Lee was 28 he had ZERO career shutouts. Sanchez is better than Cliff Lee.

Still think that those are great measures of a pitcher's performance? Or can we start looking at things that are under a pitcher's control now?

Wow. I think you might need to get some help. You are literally making stuff up and arguing it as if I said anything of the sort. C.C. Sabathia...Cliff Lee...Matt Cain. What the F are you talking about? I used Sanchez' career stats, including his post-season stats, to show what he has done in this league. And you are here taking about other pitchers? Who's freaking stats should I use when talking about Jonathan Sanchez, Nolan Ryan's? I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to do or say here. It's completely senseless.

What's hard to understand about what I just did? I used your logic to analyze player performance.

Why did I do it? To prove how lousy the measurements that you've chosen are when analyzing pitcher performance.

It's hard to understand because it's COMPLETELY illogical. You still haven't show us why you think Sanchez is a good/great pitcher. Been waiting the entire thread for that info. lol I know it's not coming, so don't worry about it.[/quote:3dez5x7a]

Why is it illogical? Either W/L record, playoff ERA and career shutouts are a good way to measure a pitcher or they aren't. I've shown why I don't think they are. You've said nothing to refute it other than to say that I need to get some help and that I'm making up things. Except the facts that I stated above are just that, facts.[/quote:3dez5x7a]

You truly don't understand that I posted those stats along with MANY OTHER stats, do you. ::facepalm::[/quote:3dez5x7a]

You: 300 IP 30-0 Record, 1 shutout, 0 strikeouts, 600 hits allowed, .400 BAA.
Me: 300 IP 0-30 Record, 0 shutouts, 900 strikeouts, 0 hits allowed, .000 BAA.

Who pitched better?[/quote:3dez5x7a]

I think those stats are a bit too far over the top.[/quote:3dez5x7a]

You haven't seen me pitch![/quote:3dez5x7a]

Well, you must play on a team with a but of 3-year-old's. You'd be the only pitcher in MLB history to have 30 no-hitters and loose every-game. I'd like to see your K/9 :lol:[/quote:3dez5x7a]

Well it's 27/9. I have a pretty bad supporting cast. Lots of errors and no run support [/quote:3dez5x7a]

I think Sanchez is a decent pitcher. He has a career 4.11 FIP, and does walk too many guys. I still he think he is an upgrade for the Royals rotation considering who they have.

 

[sportscardtheory]

...and does walk too many guys.

This is an understatement. Since entering the league in 2006, of pitchers with at least 700 innings pitched, Sanchez has walked more batters per-9 innings than any other pitcher in baseball.