Lee to Phillies

[ronfromfresno]

When Cain wins a Cy Young, He will be an equal to Lee.

So one great season make a pitcher, not the rest of his career? Cain's '09 season was dang close to the numbers that Lee put up during his Cy Young season, just more walks and less win. But Cain had no offense backing him up and Lincecum won the Cy Young that season.

Close only counts in horeshoes. I dont care who is on track for what, Saying Cain is on track to be a better pitcher makes no sense. You negate Lee's Cy Young and I can do the same with Lincecums, Whats the point of that arguement though? And the Giants never beat the Phillies new line up, Because the season has not started. Giants pitching gives up a lot of runs and your offense cant give run support. Howard is on a hot streak and games come out differently, I bash Howard all the time for not being consistent. You won the NLCS because of his slump.

My point is that Lee had a fantastic season to win the Cy Young, but Cain's season was almost identical, there just happened to be another pitcher on the same staff that was that miuch better that season. Cain hasn't pitched as long as Lee, no telling how high his ceiling is. But to say Lee, who hasn't had as many good seasons as Cain, look at the stats like WAR, is lightyears better than Cain is a bit odd. They are a lot closer to each other statistically then many would like to believe and Lee has done well in two postseasons, Cain has only participated in one and both were unhittable. So intangibles may lean to Lee, but otherwise the are similar and to me equal.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

When Cain wins a Cy Young, He will be an equal to Lee.

So one great season make a pitcher, not the rest of his career? Cain's '09 season was dang close to the numbers that Lee put up during his Cy Young season, just more walks and less win. But Cain had no offense backing him up and Lincecum won the Cy Young that season.

Close only counts in horeshoes. I dont care who is on track for what, Saying Cain is on track to be a better pitcher makes no sense. You negate Lee's Cy Young and I can do the same with Lincecums, Whats the point of that arguement though? And the Giants never beat the Phillies new line up, Because the season has not started. Giants pitching gives up a lot of runs and your offense cant give run support. Howard is on a hot streak and games come out differently, I bash Howard all the time for not being consistent. You won the NLCS because of his slump.

My point is that Lee had a fantastic season to win the Cy Young, but Cain's season was almost identical, there just happened to be another pitcher on the same staff that was that miuch better that season. Cain hasn't pitched as long as Lee, no telling how high his ceiling is. But to say Lee, who hasn't had as many good seasons as Cain, look at the stats like WAR, is lightyears better than Cain is a bit odd. They are a lot closer to each other statistically then many would like to believe and Lee has done well in two postseasons, Cain has only participated in one and both were unhittable. So intangibles may lean to Lee, but otherwise the are similar and to me equal.

Great. Matt Cain is a freaking stud. I wish my team had 5 Matt Cains. He deserves Lee's contract. They should simply rename the award from the Cy Young Award to the Matt Cain Award. In his career, Matt Cain will win 1 Cy Young Award and 15 Matt Cain Awards. He's a god.

Can we move on now?

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Oswalt, Cy Young, 2011.

Nope. Matt Cain will win it for the rest of our natural lives.

And then LIncecum will continue to win it well into the 22nd century... because they rule.

 

[ronfromfresno]

When Cain wins a Cy Young, He will be an equal to Lee.

So one great season make a pitcher, not the rest of his career? Cain's '09 season was dang close to the numbers that Lee put up during his Cy Young season, just more walks and less win. But Cain had no offense backing him up and Lincecum won the Cy Young that season.

Close only counts in horeshoes. I dont care who is on track for what, Saying Cain is on track to be a better pitcher makes no sense. You negate Lee's Cy Young and I can do the same with Lincecums, Whats the point of that arguement though? And the Giants never beat the Phillies new line up, Because the season has not started. Giants pitching gives up a lot of runs and your offense cant give run support. Howard is on a hot streak and games come out differently, I bash Howard all the time for not being consistent. You won the NLCS because of his slump.

My point is that Lee had a fantastic season to win the Cy Young, but Cain's season was almost identical, there just happened to be another pitcher on the same staff that was that miuch better that season. Cain hasn't pitched as long as Lee, no telling how high his ceiling is. But to say Lee, who hasn't had as many good seasons as Cain, look at the stats like WAR, is lightyears better than Cain is a bit odd. They are a lot closer to each other statistically then many would like to believe and Lee has done well in two postseasons, Cain has only participated in one and both were unhittable. So intangibles may lean to Lee, but otherwise the are similar and to me equal.

Great. Matt Cain is a freaking stud. I wish my team had 5 Matt Cains. He deserves Lee's contract. They should simply rename the award from the Cy Young Award to the Matt Cain Award. In his career, Matt Cain will win 1 Cy Young Award and 15 Matt Cain Awards. He's a god.

Can we move on now?

Way to add to conversation, thanks. I'm responding to others opinions with my own. Never did I claim Cain should have or will win any Cy Young's. I think it's laughable that Lee got the contract he got, really that any player does. Personally, I think Cain is equal to Lee and younger and I believe the stats bear that out save for one year from Lee. Of course since I'm an obnoxius Giants fans no matter what I type it'll be homerism, put the Lee fans responding though, they have sound baseball knowledge backing them up. Point is Lee is a great pitcher, and I'd love to have him on the Giants staff, but he's not the best pitcher in either league, not even on the Phillies staff. Again, thanks for your opinion and thanks for reading mine.

 

[ronfromfresno]

Oswalt, Cy Young, 2011.

Nope. Matt Cain will win it for the rest of our natural lives.

And then LIncecum will continue to win it well into the 22nd century... because they rule.

Lincecum does have more Cy's than Lee at this point........ :lol:

 

[nosterbor]

Giants fans need to come down to Earth! i can name 10 teams that have won more than ONE ring in the last 50 years. The Philly's are one of those teams. you need to start your own topic! it could have a heading like this.

THE GIANTS HAVE THE GREATEST WORSE TEAM EVER!

 

[phillyfan0417]

Giants fans need to come down to Earth! i can name 10 teams that have won more than ONE ring in the last 50 years. The Philly's are one of those teams. you need to start your own topic! it could have a heading like this.

THE GIANTS HAVE THE GREATEST WORSE TEAM EVER!

I've tried to avoid these threads because of the homerism on both sides but this is just a silly statement. The Giants are World Champions because when it counted, they were the best team. On their way to the title, they beat the defending NL champs and the team that knocked out the World Champs.They may not have had an exceptional offense but they were better when it counted.

It is very hard to beat a tandem of lincy/cain regardless of what the names are but i'll take the phillies 4 against any other team. The one major reason is in the playoffs, you can be confident in all 4 starters and you dont worry about skipping turns. Like everything, this is assuming the talent performs to their past levels...

 

[ronfromfresno]

Giants fans need to come down to Earth! i can name 10 teams that have won more than ONE ring in the last 50 years. The Philly's are one of those teams. you need to start your own topic! it could have a heading like this.

THE GIANTS HAVE THE GREATEST WORSE TEAM EVER!

Care to qualify that opinion? Or is it Dodger homerism talking? Like I've stated before the Giants were the best team in the second half of the season, best record, most HR, best ERA and so on. So at the time of the World Series they were one of the better teams in league, not as bad as they look on paper.

 

[fengzhang]

Both the Giants and Phillies have great starting rotations.

The Giants were just much better when it counted this year.

Let's leave it at that.

 

[tpeichel]

Since WAR seems to be the stat of choice in this thread, if the Philly 4 repeat their performance from last year, according to WAR, they will challenge for the greatest 4 man rotation of all time.

1912 Red Sox 24.1 (Joe Wood 9.6!)
2010 Phillies 21.7
1997 Braves 20.9
1991 Braves 20.9
1913 NY Giants 20.9

No disrespect to the Giants starters, because they are fantastic, but the Philly 4 have the pedigree to be historic.

 

[tpeichel]

Ranking all pitchers by WAR over the last three years:

1) Halladay 21.5
2) Lee 20.9
3) Lincecum 20.8
16) Hamels 11.9
21) Oswalt 11.2
21) Cain 11.2

 

[ronfromfresno]

Ranking all pitchers by WAR over the last three years:

1) Halladay 21.5
2) Lee 20.9
3) Lincecum 20.8
16) Hamels 11.9
21) Oswalt 11.2
21) Cain 11.2

Where are you finding Lee's WAR at? His career total listed on baseball-reference.com, over 9 years is 22.1 and 16.6 in the last three years and Cain is 13.0. Here's the rest:

Halladay 20.2
Lee 16.6
Lincecum 16.7
Hamels 11.0
Oswalt 11.9
Cain 13.0

Not saying your totals are wrong, just different than I found.

 

[darocker80]

When Cain wins a Cy Young, He will be an equal to Lee.

So one great season make a pitcher, not the rest of his career? Cain's '09 season was dang close to the numbers that Lee put up during his Cy Young season, just more walks and less win. But Cain had no offense backing him up and Lincecum won the Cy Young that season.

Close only counts in horeshoes. I dont care who is on track for what, Saying Cain is on track to be a better pitcher makes no sense. You negate Lee's Cy Young and I can do the same with Lincecums, Whats the point of that arguement though? And the Giants never beat the Phillies new line up, Because the season has not started. Giants pitching gives up a lot of runs and your offense cant give run support. Howard is on a hot streak and games come out differently, I bash Howard all the time for not being consistent. You won the NLCS because of his slump.

My point is that Lee had a fantastic season to win the Cy Young, but Cain's season was almost identical, there just happened to be another pitcher on the same staff that was that miuch better that season. Cain hasn't pitched as long as Lee, no telling how high his ceiling is. But to say Lee, who hasn't had as many good seasons as Cain, look at the stats like WAR, is lightyears better than Cain is a bit odd. They are a lot closer to each other statistically then many would like to believe and Lee has done well in two postseasons, Cain has only participated in one and both were unhittable. So intangibles may lean to Lee, but otherwise the are similar and to me equal.

Great. Matt Cain is a freaking stud. I wish my team had 5 Matt Cains. He deserves Lee's contract. They should simply rename the award from the Cy Young Award to the Matt Cain Award. In his career, Matt Cain will win 1 Cy Young Award and 15 Matt Cain Awards. He's a god.

Can we move on now?

Now you sound exactly like the people who you flame/make fun of..

 

[Bob Loblaw]

[quote="Marro":2iq6b97n]When Cain wins a Cy Young, He will be an equal to Lee.

So one great season make a pitcher, not the rest of his career? Cain's '09 season was dang close to the numbers that Lee put up during his Cy Young season, just more walks and less win. But Cain had no offense backing him up and Lincecum won the Cy Young that season.

Close only counts in horeshoes. I dont care who is on track for what, Saying Cain is on track to be a better pitcher makes no sense. You negate Lee's Cy Young and I can do the same with Lincecums, Whats the point of that arguement though? And the Giants never beat the Phillies new line up, Because the season has not started. Giants pitching gives up a lot of runs and your offense cant give run support. Howard is on a hot streak and games come out differently, I bash Howard all the time for not being consistent. You won the NLCS because of his slump.

My point is that Lee had a fantastic season to win the Cy Young, but Cain's season was almost identical, there just happened to be another pitcher on the same staff that was that miuch better that season. Cain hasn't pitched as long as Lee, no telling how high his ceiling is. But to say Lee, who hasn't had as many good seasons as Cain, look at the stats like WAR, is lightyears better than Cain is a bit odd. They are a lot closer to each other statistically then many would like to believe and Lee has done well in two postseasons, Cain has only participated in one and both were unhittable. So intangibles may lean to Lee, but otherwise the are similar and to me equal.

Great. Matt Cain is a freaking stud. I wish my team had 5 Matt Cains. He deserves Lee's contract. They should simply rename the award from the Cy Young Award to the Matt Cain Award. In his career, Matt Cain will win 1 Cy Young Award and 15 Matt Cain Awards. He's a god.

Can we move on now?

Now you sound exactly like the people who you flame/make fun of..[/quote:2iq6b97n]

That was the point.

This is a stupid conversation; it has nothing to do with Giant fans or the Giants or last year's NLCS. Why the Giant fans on this board feel the need to intrude everywhere is beyond me.

 

[darocker80]

[quote="Jeff N.":1rbl9byh]

[quote="Marro":1rbl9byh]When Cain wins a Cy Young, He will be an equal to Lee.

So one great season make a pitcher, not the rest of his career? Cain's '09 season was dang close to the numbers that Lee put up during his Cy Young season, just more walks and less win. But Cain had no offense backing him up and Lincecum won the Cy Young that season.

Close only counts in horeshoes. I dont care who is on track for what, Saying Cain is on track to be a better pitcher makes no sense. You negate Lee's Cy Young and I can do the same with Lincecums, Whats the point of that arguement though? And the Giants never beat the Phillies new line up, Because the season has not started. Giants pitching gives up a lot of runs and your offense cant give run support. Howard is on a hot streak and games come out differently, I bash Howard all the time for not being consistent. You won the NLCS because of his slump.

My point is that Lee had a fantastic season to win the Cy Young, but Cain's season was almost identical, there just happened to be another pitcher on the same staff that was that miuch better that season. Cain hasn't pitched as long as Lee, no telling how high his ceiling is. But to say Lee, who hasn't had as many good seasons as Cain, look at the stats like WAR, is lightyears better than Cain is a bit odd. They are a lot closer to each other statistically then many would like to believe and Lee has done well in two postseasons, Cain has only participated in one and both were unhittable. So intangibles may lean to Lee, but otherwise the are similar and to me equal.

Great. Matt Cain is a freaking stud. I wish my team had 5 Matt Cains. He deserves Lee's contract. They should simply rename the award from the Cy Young Award to the Matt Cain Award. In his career, Matt Cain will win 1 Cy Young Award and 15 Matt Cain Awards. He's a god.

Can we move on now?

Now you sound exactly like the people who you flame/make fun of..[/quote:1rbl9byh]

That was the point.

This is a stupid conversation; it has nothing to do with Giant fans or the Giants or last year's NLCS. Why the Giant fans on this board feel the need to intrude everywhere is beyond me.[/quote:1rbl9byh]
I don't believe that's the case. But I am done arguing and conversing about anything related to the Giants in this thread.

All I have to say is that the phillies have an amazing rotation on paper and will most likely win the NL East with ease...or they should. Noit sure how the braves are going to stack up.

 

[braden]

Ranking all pitchers by WAR over the last three years:

1) Halladay 21.5
2) Lee 20.9
3) Lincecum 20.8
16) Hamels 11.9
21) Oswalt 11.2
21) Cain 11.2

Where are you finding Lee's WAR at? His career total listed on baseball-reference.com, over 9 years is 22.1 and 16.6 in the last three years and Cain is 13.0. Here's the rest:

Halladay 20.2
Lee 16.6
Lincecum 16.7
Hamels 11.0
Oswalt 11.9
Cain 13.0

Not saying your totals are wrong, just different than I found.

It could have to do with how defense is calculated, or not included at all. Some places account for it, others don't. It can be especially difficult when it comes to positions like pitcher and catcher.

 

[kdailey4315]

That was the point.

This is a stupid conversation; it has nothing to do with Giant fans or the Giants or last year's NLCS. Why the Giant fans on this board feel the need to intrude everywhere is beyond me.

That's ironic since you were the first person to bring up the Giants in this thread.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

That was the point.

This is a stupid conversation; it has nothing to do with Giant fans or the Giants or last year's NLCS. Why the Giant fans on this board feel the need to intrude everywhere is beyond me.

That's ironic since you were the first person to bring up the Giants in this thread.

Mmmmm... No, sorry, thanks for playing.

Here's the first mention, made by a fellow ********* Giants' fan.


viewtopic.php?f=2&t=114604&start=15

And I haven't said a single derogatory thing about the Giants or their pitchersthroughout this 18 page thread.

 

[kdailey4315]

http://freedomcardboard.com/forum/viewt ... 4&start=15[/url]

And I haven't said a single derogatory thing about the Giants or their pitchersthroughout this 18 page thread.[/quote:2564ipk1]

Sorry I didn't see his competing comment. I thought where you brought up their salaries was the first mention. There's no need to call people names either. It just makes you look like the ******.

 

[GiantsSuperCollector]

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=114604&start=15[/url]

And I haven't said a single derogatory thing about the Giants or their pitchersthroughout this 18 page thread.

Sorry I didn't see his competing comment. I thought where you brought up their salaries was the first mention. There's no need to call people names either. It just makes you look like the ******.[/quote:3pjt5os1]
I just stated my opinion, plus it is true they will be in their mid-thirties and on the decline...unless they become like Jamie Moyer (highly unlikely). Just wondering, how are you a lawyer if you can't control what you say?