More evidence of the decline in value of Razor Sig Series

[HoustonTeams4Me]

If I would be able to go back in a time machine I would have done things differently.
I screwed up by believing that Metal would be a different design and photo than Sg Series.
When the owner of the company states in a thread back in November that he would never do that (have Metal be a mirror of Sig Series because he would never stick it to the people who supported the company from the get-go) why would I think anything differently?

So basically, what you are saying is the only non garbage stuff is the /5, and /199?

Gilmore, for a person who was such a fan of the company it kind of blows (now that the company has moved on to products 2, 3,4) you can so easily admit that the product that ws hyped for so long is junk except for /5, /199


Sure when a player gets hot down the road the cards will go up BUT they will not go up as much as they would have had the Metal series not been a mirror design of the Sig Series

Here is where you misunderstand me, and also where everyone misunderstands me. I am not a signature series homer. I think things could have been done MUCH better. The release is by no means crap, but it isn't what it could have been.

I AM a fan of the concepts razor has. I am a fan of what they say they plan on doing. It hasn't happened yet.

I applaud you for coming on here & saying this! My question is "when is enough, enough"? For you personally, when will "what they say" not carry further merit anymore since it has yet to come to fruition? (Basically talk & plan's are GREAT, but if there is no follow through or backing to those plan's, then really what is it other than just talk?)

 

[cgilmo]

If I would be able to go back in a time machine I would have done things differently.
I screwed up by believing that Metal would be a different design and photo than Sg Series.
When the owner of the company states in a thread back in November that he would never do that (have Metal be a mirror of Sig Series because he would never stick it to the people who supported the company from the get-go) why would I think anything differently?

So basically, what you are saying is the only non garbage stuff is the /5, and /199?

Gilmore, for a person who was such a fan of the company it kind of blows (now that the company has moved on to products 2, 3,4) you can so easily admit that the product that ws hyped for so long is junk except for /5, /199


Sure when a player gets hot down the road the cards will go up BUT they will not go up as much as they would have had the Metal series not been a mirror design of the Sig Series

Here is where you misunderstand me, and also where everyone misunderstands me. I am not a signature series homer. I think things could have been done MUCH better. The release is by no means crap, but it isn't what it could have been.

I AM a fan of the concepts razor has. I am a fan of what they say they plan on doing. It hasn't happened yet.

I applaud you for coming on here & saying this! My question is "when is enough, enough"? For you personally, when will "what they say" not carry further merit anymore since it has yet to come to fruition? (Basically talk & plan's are GREAT, but if there is no follow through or backing to those plan's, then really what is it other than just talk?)

I don't know the answer to this question yet. I guess I will have to play it by ear. FYI, I loved the execution on letterman. I think it was a fantastically done product, and I think singles from it will appreciate above anything letterman as long as the player you are buying has a nice signature on the patch.

 

[Wes]

that is kinda how hype works

Compare chrome cards at market now to what they were at release.

Not sure this is the whole story - I bought a bunch of guys at release who then went up (Wieters, Alonso, Wallace). All have since dropped off as evidenced in this Wieters sale. A perfect example, I bought a blue /25 Wieters early on for $120, sold it for $230, now it just sold for $95.

I have regained a bit of faith in the exclusives though.

 

[flightposite]

I don't get why everyone gets their ******* in such a bunch about this. It's a completely normal cycle. Product comes out, high prices, as time goes by from release, prices drop. Then, when players get hot, their cards go up.

 

[Adamsince1981]

I don't get why everyone gets their ******* in such a bunch about this. It's a completely normal cycle. Product comes out, high prices, as time goes by from release, prices drop. Then, when players get hot, their cards go up.

I don't get it either.

Wallace's USA auto's have dropped as well...

 

[Wes]

I don't get why everyone gets their ******* in such a bunch about this. It's a completely normal cycle. Product comes out, high prices, as time goes by from release, prices drop. Then, when players get hot, their cards go up.

I already kind of responded to this above but I'll say it again for simplicities sake.

Prices went from low to high to low again. NOT from high to low.

 

[flightposite]

I don't get why everyone gets their ******* in such a bunch about this. It's a completely normal cycle. Product comes out, high prices, as time goes by from release, prices drop. Then, when players get hot, their cards go up.

I already kind of responded to this above but I'll say it again for simplicities sake.

Prices went from low to high to low again. NOT from high to low.

That can easily be attributed to Razor being a brand new company and that being their first release (in baseball). I think most people were a bit tentative at first because of that. No offense to you, but I think most of this is people crying because they may have held onto their cheap stashes a bit too long, now you'll just have to wait for the player to get hot.

 

[kentuckyderby]

I don't get why everyone gets their ******* in such a bunch about this. It's a completely normal cycle. Product comes out, high prices, as time goes by from release, prices drop. Then, when players get hot, their cards go up.

I already kind of responded to this above but I'll say it again for simplicities sake.

Prices went from low to high to low again. NOT from high to low.

That can easily be attributed to Razor being a brand new company and that being their first release (in baseball). I think most people were a bit tentative at first because of that. No offense to you, but I think most of this is people crying because they may have held onto their cheap stashes a bit too long, now you'll just have to wait for the player to get hot.

I can HONESTLY say that my "crying" isn't about the $$$.
I planned on waiting on these cards and not selling right away anyway.
My biggest beef revolves around the WAY things were done.
I feel that Razor really turned their backs on those who supported them from the get-go when many were quick to rip on them and not give the new dog a chance.
Could the "wrong" have been avoided? Most definatley. Back in November when BG started a thread asking about what the collectors wanted from product #3 (keep in mind product #1 was still a month away from being shipped) many in the thread gave input. Some said this, some said that, but many who invested in Sig Series said they didn't want products #2 or #3 to take away from product #1. Heck, some even said why are why talking #2 and #3 when #1 not even doen yet. Razor had the chance then to listen and empathize with those who backed them initailly. BG even gave his promise about the Metals not being the same design since he knew and admitted it would be a slice to the Sig Series holders. However, Razor gave in to the Chromies, ironically many of the same people who ripped on Razor in the early stages here on FCB and most definately on the old Beckett board. The chromies wanted their shiney cards and Razor needed to get product out ASAP. That rush (and finacial desire) led Razor to just mirror the Sig Series and break the promise given to those who still continued to buy Sig Series under the impression that Metal would be different and that the Sig Series cards would hold uniqueness and hence value.
So, some became "bitter" and turned off by Razor after seeing that they went against what they said. I'm sure part of BG wished he didn't do it (make promises that he wouldn't keep). Heck, he admitted his wrong. I'm sure part of BG also says $$$$ because plenty of input was gievn and voices were heard well in advance.

So to say those who are angry are only angry about not selling when they had the chance, I disagree. As a teacher of students with behavioral and emaotional needs, I often have to bring state standards into my lesson plans centering on character education. I am a huge fan of doing things the classy way. This is one sore spot for me when I think Razor didn't do things with the most class or professionalism.

OK, enough stalling from doing my powerpoint, back to work.

 

[Wes]

I don't get why everyone gets their ******* in such a bunch about this. It's a completely normal cycle. Product comes out, high prices, as time goes by from release, prices drop. Then, when players get hot, their cards go up.

I already kind of responded to this above but I'll say it again for simplicities sake.

Prices went from low to high to low again. NOT from high to low.

That can easily be attributed to Razor being a brand new company and that being their first release (in baseball). I think most people were a bit tentative at first because of that. No offense to you, but I think most of this is people crying because they may have held onto their cheap stashes a bit too long, now you'll just have to wait for the player to get hot.

None taken - it's a message board everyone has opinions.

As for me - I've recouped my initial sig series investment and everything else I'm holding till call ups/hot lists. Taking the money I made and firing at metal.

 

[Stryk]

Check out Justin Smoak blacks. They are around $50. Were only about $25-30 when first came out. Thankfully I got two in Andrews Razor break.

 

[Moonlight Graham]

that is kinda how hype works

Compare chrome cards at market now to what they were at release.

Gotta agree. If this weren't true, then a decline in any big-time Bowman Chrome card would equal a decline in Bowman Chrome values. That simply ain't true. "ERRONEUS!"

That's ironic

 

[kentuckyderby]

Check out Justin Smoak blacks. They are around $50. Were only about $25-30 when first came out. Thankfully I got two in Andrews Razor break.

Metals not made for /199 (black) or /5

 

[G $MONEY$]

Ugh.... how could a power seller of sports cards display such an awful image?

 

[All The Hype]

The reason why Topps is successful with their Bowman products is because they are all different players.

They have three releases in a year: Bowman, Bowman Chrome, Bowman Draft Picks and Prospects. Each of these is essentially the same design as the last (with minor changes), but the key is that each release features different players.

Recently I think they have become complacent and this is where you see the same player as a base card in bowman and then again as an auto in BC, but one thing you rarely see from them is the same players with more than one of the same type of card.

Not only does this keep buyers happy, but it gives their cards the most possible value, as they are refraining from flooding the market by releasing 6 different autos of the same player in the same year (like Donruss seems to have done this year).

In my opinion, the thing Razor did wrong was to include too many of their players in the first product. They could have saved some of the players for their second release and simply released "2008 Razor Signature Series 2" and included the rest of the players. Yeah, it would make their first product a little weaker overall, but it would attract lots of interest and create anticipation for the second product because people would still be searching for certain players that are Razor exclusive, but that they chose to save for this second release. I think this would make up for the inevitably weaker checklist of product number one.

It's pretty simple, just look at what works. Bowman releases basically the same product three times a year...only the checklist changes. They are successful products, consumers love them, and their cards hold value better than just about anything. It works, and people are happy.

 

[200lbhockeyplayer]

The reason why Topps is successful with their Bowman products is because they are all different players.

They have three releases in a year: Bowman, Bowman Chrome, Bowman Draft Picks and Prospects. Each of these is essentially the same design as the last (with minor changes), but the key is that each release features different players.

Recently I think they have become complacent and this is where you see the same player as a base card in bowman and then again as an auto in BC, but one thing you rarely see from them is the same players with more than one of the same type of card.

Not only does this keep buyers happy, but it gives their cards the most possible value, as they are refraining from flooding the market by releasing 6 different autos of the same player in the same year (like Donruss seems to have done this year).

In my opinion, the thing Razor did wrong was to include too many of their players in the first product. They could have saved some of the players for their second release and simply released "2008 Razor Signature Series 2" and included the rest of the players. Yeah, it would make their first product a little weaker overall, but it would attract lots of interest and create anticipation for the second product because people would still be searching for certain players that are Razor exclusive, but that they chose to save for this second release. I think this would make up for the inevitably weaker checklist of product number one.

It's pretty simple, just look at what works. Bowman releases basically the same product three times a year...only the checklist changes. They are successful products, consumers love them, and their cards hold value better than just about anything. It works, and people are happy.

Actually, Bowman and Bowman Chrome's popularity came about during a time where their checklists were almost always identical. And they still stay pretty much the same...only Bowman Chrome has a bigger prospect list...not exactly "different."

For example 2000...there were only a few cards that strayed from set to set. The guys that are coming to mind would be the Nick Neugebauer (every old prospector remember him?) who was in 2000 Bowman, but not Chrome and Jason Hart (the former $12 man - most expensive in that set for probably two years) only appeared on the Bowman Chrome release.

And frankly...I could care less if the checklists are the same...as long as it is known or assumed ahead of time.

Personally, I would love the opportunity to pull base non-autographed Bowman Draft cards of players like Ryan Braun, Delmon Young, Brandon Wood, Evan Longoria etc...and then perhaps pull their Bowman Chrome Draft card that would be autographed.

 

[NECpilgrims8]

The reason why Topps is successful with their Bowman products is because they are all different players.

They have three releases in a year: Bowman, Bowman Chrome, Bowman Draft Picks and Prospects. Each of these is essentially the same design as the last (with minor changes), but the key is that each release features different players.

Recently I think they have become complacent and this is where you see the same player as a base card in bowman and then again as an auto in BC, but one thing you rarely see from them is the same players with more than one of the same type of card.

Not only does this keep buyers happy, but it gives their cards the most possible value, as they are refraining from flooding the market by releasing 6 different autos of the same player in the same year (like Donruss seems to have done this year).

In my opinion, the thing Razor did wrong was to include too many of their players in the first product. They could have saved some of the players for their second release and simply released "2008 Razor Signature Series 2" and included the rest of the players. Yeah, it would make their first product a little weaker overall, but it would attract lots of interest and create anticipation for the second product because people would still be searching for certain players that are Razor exclusive, but that they chose to save for this second release. I think this would make up for the inevitably weaker checklist of product number one.

It's pretty simple, just look at what works. Bowman releases basically the same product three times a year...only the checklist changes. They are successful products, consumers love them, and their cards hold value better than just about anything. It works, and people are happy.

Apparently, you are living in another world.

Topps is notorious for recycling throughout their brands, whether it's the same year or the following years. Not to mention, they also take the players from the first release and make them "futures games" or something else to get them in the product.

If you want to call Topps a saint, then you are completely ignorant to the fact that they too, feed us shat and say it's gold.

 

[All The Hype]

The reason why Topps is successful with their Bowman products is because they are all different players.

They have three releases in a year: Bowman, Bowman Chrome, Bowman Draft Picks and Prospects. Each of these is essentially the same design as the last (with minor changes), but the key is that each release features different players.

Recently I think they have become complacent and this is where you see the same player as a base card in bowman and then again as an auto in BC, but one thing you rarely see from them is the same players with more than one of the same type of card.

Not only does this keep buyers happy, but it gives their cards the most possible value, as they are refraining from flooding the market by releasing 6 different autos of the same player in the same year (like Donruss seems to have done this year).

In my opinion, the thing Razor did wrong was to include too many of their players in the first product. They could have saved some of the players for their second release and simply released "2008 Razor Signature Series 2" and included the rest of the players. Yeah, it would make their first product a little weaker overall, but it would attract lots of interest and create anticipation for the second product because people would still be searching for certain players that are Razor exclusive, but that they chose to save for this second release. I think this would make up for the inevitably weaker checklist of product number one.

It's pretty simple, just look at what works. Bowman releases basically the same product three times a year...only the checklist changes. They are successful products, consumers love them, and their cards hold value better than just about anything. It works, and people are happy.

Apparently, you are living in another world.

Topps is notorious for recycling throughout their brands, whether it's the same year or the following years. Not to mention, they also take the players from the first release and make them "futures games" or something else to get them in the product.

If you want to call Topps a saint, then you are completely ignorant to the fact that they too, feed us shat and say it's gold.

Their products work.

If they released 4 different products every year, with an autograph of the same player in each of these releases, do you honestly believe that their chrome auto would be worth as much? if so, then you my friend, are the ignorant one.

And putting someone in the future's game set in BDP when they were an auto in Bowman is far different from what Razor's apparent concept is (similar to that of Donruss), where you cram all the same players into every single product you release in a year. This is what I am talking about.

And Topps can't even control the FG set anyway, everyone that plays in the game has a card no matter if they have already had a Bowman card or not.

 

[200lbhockeyplayer]

Their products work.

If they released 4 different products every year, with an autograph of the same player in each of these releases, do you honestly believe that their chrome auto would be worth as much? if so, then you my friend, are the ignorant one.

And putting someone in the future's game set in BDP when they were an auto in Bowman is far different from what Razor's apparent concept is (similar to that of Donruss), where you cram all the same players into every single product you release in a year. This is what I am talking about.

And Topps can't even control the FG set anyway, everyone that plays in the game has a card no matter if they have already had a Bowman card or not.

You're missing the point. What Adam and I have stated is that Bowman/Topps is notorious for using almost the exact same checklists in their Bowman and Bowman Chrome products.

They started out doing it in the late 90's and have continued into today.

 

[All The Hype]

Their products work.

If they released 4 different products every year, with an autograph of the same player in each of these releases, do you honestly believe that their chrome auto would be worth as much? if so, then you my friend, are the ignorant one.

And putting someone in the future's game set in BDP when they were an auto in Bowman is far different from what Razor's apparent concept is (similar to that of Donruss), where you cram all the same players into every single product you release in a year. This is what I am talking about.

And Topps can't even control the FG set anyway, everyone that plays in the game has a card no matter if they have already had a Bowman card or not.

You're missing the point. What Adam and I have stated is that Bowman/Topps is notorious for using almost the exact same checklists in their Bowman and Bowman Chrome products.

They started out doing it in the late 90's and have continued into today.

No I see what you're saying.

I'm just saying there's a big difference between releasing one auto card for a player (like Topps does with Bowman) and releasing 3-5 different auto cards for the same player in different products from the same company (i.e., what Donruss has done this year and what Razor appears to be trying to do).

Bowman Sterling does exist, but a lot of the players on the auto checklist are different from any of the Chrome autos. And if I'm not mistaken, this still means that at most, a player will have two bowman autos (one chrome, one sterling) in a year.

I just feel like this is a more effective way to make sure your cards hold value, especially for a company that's just getting started in the industry. In my opinion, the worst thing they can do is release more products than are necessary because 1) it pisses off a lot of the people that buy the first product and 2) it devalues the first product that they release by adding a greater supply of autos of a single player to the market. The way i see it, nothing is worse for a card company than producing a product whose cards will not hold value, and I'm not saying that this is what will necessarily happen, but I definitely don't think that it helps to have numerous autos of the same players.

 

[NECpilgrims8]

[quote="ALL_THE_HYPE":w9lkf064]The reason why Topps is successful with their Bowman products is because they are all different players.

They have three releases in a year: Bowman, Bowman Chrome, Bowman Draft Picks and Prospects. Each of these is essentially the same design as the last (with minor changes), but the key is that each release features different players.

Recently I think they have become complacent and this is where you see the same player as a base card in bowman and then again as an auto in BC, but one thing you rarely see from them is the same players with more than one of the same type of card.

Not only does this keep buyers happy, but it gives their cards the most possible value, as they are refraining from flooding the market by releasing 6 different autos of the same player in the same year (like Donruss seems to have done this year).

In my opinion, the thing Razor did wrong was to include too many of their players in the first product. They could have saved some of the players for their second release and simply released "2008 Razor Signature Series 2" and included the rest of the players. Yeah, it would make their first product a little weaker overall, but it would attract lots of interest and create anticipation for the second product because people would still be searching for certain players that are Razor exclusive, but that they chose to save for this second release. I think this would make up for the inevitably weaker checklist of product number one.

It's pretty simple, just look at what works. Bowman releases basically the same product three times a year...only the checklist changes. They are successful products, consumers love them, and their cards hold value better than just about anything. It works, and people are happy.

Apparently, you are living in another world.

Topps is notorious for recycling throughout their brands, whether it's the same year or the following years. Not to mention, they also take the players from the first release and make them "futures games" or something else to get them in the product.

If you want to call Topps a saint, then you are completely ignorant to the fact that they too, feed us shat and say it's gold.

Their products work.

Actually, no they don't. For the majority, it's an utter disaster, masked by a couple obvious names that are included. They pretty much either put out an awful auto checklist w/ a great base set, or a great auto checklist w/ an awful base set. It's not until the next year that they take those good base set players and make an auto, completely frustrating the current consumer and confusing the new consumers.

I guess your hatred towards Razor is blinding the reality you just can't grasp.

If they released 4 different products every year, with an autograph of the same player in each of these releases, do you honestly believe that their chrome auto would be worth as much? if so, then you my friend, are the ignorant one.

Topps includes the same autos in Chrome and Sterling. What is different? Razor put out two products this year, both with different markets. The third product is essentially a parallel, not a set. It was never packed out and the product line isn't big enough overall.

And putting someone in the future's game set in BDP when they were an auto in Bowman is far different from what Razor's apparent concept is (similar to that of Donruss), where you cram all the same players into every single product you release in a year. This is what I am talking about.

...and you would be talking like a rambling fool. What you are saying makes no sense. Different markets for each release is much better than making a second, third, etc... of the same type of card.

And Topps can't even control the FG set anyway, everyone that plays in the game has a card no matter if they have already had a Bowman card or not.

Ummm, yes they can. They make the product, they could choose to not even make them, and add more exclusive prospects to their sets instead. But, remember, they don't care what you think because they know people like you will buy their products because its so "OMGZ the bestezt!"

[/quote:w9lkf064]


See above. I am shocked you are arguing with absolute facts presented with you.