OK, I'm a Little Pissed at PSA - UPDATE!

[allstars]

Wanted to relay this experience to you guys & get your opinions.

Recently a young lady came into the shop with some sweet cards her grandfather had left her when he passed away. The lot included a couple hundred '52 Topps cards in decent shape. Among them were a handful of precious hi #'s including a pretty nice Eddie Mathews RC, the last card in the set & incredibly valuable & in-demand. The card is sweet, a little oc & probably EXMT. It has a tiny blemish on the border by the top right corner (but not on the corner).

OK, so I told her we outta get the nicer high #'s & the Mathews graded to maximize return, and she agreed. I hadn't submitted anything for grading in a few years, so I initially looked into PSA & Beckett. I settled for PSA, settled being the key word lol.

I had 12 cards to submit & I thought my best deal would be to buy the 2-year PSA club membership, which included 12 gradings according to the website. Nice. So I paid a couple hundred bucks & waited a week until my "kit" arrived. I dived right in & got to filling out the submission forms. Only then do I find out that none of the 12 "free" submissions can be worth more than $500. The Mathews books for 10k, you get the picture. So now I have to find another card to get graded in the 12, and shell out another $60 plus $26 shipping to get the Mathews graded & sent to me in a seperate registered mail package.

Today I got back the Mathews. It's unslabbed & labeled "altered". What a bunch of crap. To me "altered" means like it was restored or something. Let me assure you whatever the tiny flaw is on the card it happened back in the 50's. WTF is altered? It's no different than a bad corner - it's a flaw on the card! But grade it for God's sakes! I am shocked that PSA wouldn't give the card a grade, and wish I could get my money back.

I'll scan it on Monday & post it here. The card is sweet & 100% unaltered. So where do I go from here? Should I call BGS before I waste more $, or just submit it & hope the BGS guy has a brain at least? I've never been a fan of grading, and I feel that I'm a bit qualified to judge a card, having been a full-time dealer all my life.

This card came straight from the shoebox PSA!

 

[steve-a-reno]

Re: OK, I'm a Little Pissed at PSA

That's too bad. I'd kill for a 52 Mathews.

 

[G $MONEY$]

Re: OK, I'm a Little Pissed at PSA

It happens. Send it in again in a month and it might end up in a slab. Be interested to see a scan though. If they are calling it "altered" they are saying its restored or enhanced in some way like trimmed, re colored, re-backed, etc.

 

[allstars]

Re: OK, I'm a Little Pissed at PSA

That's too bad. I'd kill for a 52 Mathews.

I'm tellin you Steve, there's not alot of guys collecting this set that wouldn't be thrilled with this card, I think it's beautiful. Cards have flaws, no doubt. I've seen them all. But whoever decided not to grade this card at PSA is dead clueless. It's very disheartening to me that a "professional" grader would not grade a card because of a 50 year-old flaw. It's very disturbing to me & I feel cheated by PSA after joining their "club".

The saddest thing is I just submitted a Thurman Munson signed ball to them for authentication. If they don't give me some answers via phone Monday I've spent my last dime with them. I need professionalism from my professionals, especially my paid professionals :-(

 

[allstars]

Re: OK, I'm a Little Pissed at PSA

It happens. Send it in again in a month and it might end up in a slab. Be interested to see a scan though. If they are calling it "altered" they are saying its restored or enhanced in some way like trimmed, re colored, re-backed, etc.

I agree. There is 0% chance that this card was ever any of the above.

Shoebox finds in this day & age are very infrequent. These cards came to me totally unprotected.

 

[ThoseBackPages]

Re: OK, I'm a Little Pissed at PSA

Maybe her grandfather "altered" it as a kid? its possible.

Send it to BVG

 

[justinmandawg]

Re: OK, I'm a Little Pissed at PSA

Wow. I would love to do what you do, at least for a while. It has to have some awesome days mixe in with some tough ones.

 

[allstars]

Re: OK, I'm a Little Pissed at PSA

Maybe her grandfather "altered" it as a kid? its possible.

Send it to BVG

Will do.

By that definition, every card not in pack-fresh condition would be "altered", wouldn't it? Isn't every bad corner the result of some kid changing the card's condition?

Some things it isn't: restored or enhanced in some way like trimmed, re colored, re-backed, etc.

I know BGS grades in categories & surface in particular. The flaw is simply a defect in the card's surface. As you'll see & surely agree, it's clear that absolutely no attemps have ever been made to disguise the flaw in any way, hence my puzzlement...

The back is really nice, extremely clean, totally problem-free. I wasn't expecting a high grade, just a true one.

Like I said, I'll post scans here asap, I'm off tomorrow thank God!

 

[allstars]

Re: OK, I'm a Little Pissed at PSA

Wow. I would love to do what you do, at least for a while. It has to have some awesome days mixe in with some tough ones.

You can take posession this week justin, as long as the check clears ;-)

 

[steve-a-reno]

Re: OK, I'm a Little Pissed at PSA

[quote="steve-a-reno":11jf194s]That's too bad. I'd kill for a 52 Mathews.

I'm tellin you Steve, there's not alot of guys collecting this set that wouldn't be thrilled with this card, I think it's beautiful. Cards have flaws, no doubt. I've seen them all. But whoever decided not to grade this card at PSA is dead clueless. It's very disheartening to me that a "professional" grader would not grade a card because of a 50 year-old flaw. It's very disturbing to me & I feel cheated by PSA after joining their "club".

The saddest thing is I just submitted a Thurman Munson signed ball to them for authentication. If they don't give me some answers via phone Monday I've spent my last dime with them. I need professionalism from my professionals, especially my paid professionals :-([/quote:11jf194s]


At this point, condition is secondary to me. The card is way to expensive to own a decent copy of, for me at least. I just hope one day I can pick up an authenticated "abused" version. Hopefully you'll have better luck on the re-sub or grading somewhere else.

 

[matchpenalty]

Re: OK, I'm a Little Pissed at PSA

A lot of older cards got touched up in 70's and 80's and sold. Maybe the grandfather bought some of these cards from a shady dealer back then.
PSA is really good at finding altered/touched up vintage cards. They know what to look for. Most can't be seen by the naked eye.

 

[nyc3]

Re: OK, I'm a Little Pissed at PSA

Altered could be someone colored in a scratch, trimmed and many other things. It has nothing to do with this flaw you are stressing about, unless the flaw was colored in.

 

[allstars]

Re: OK, I'm a Little Pissed at PSA

A lot of older cards got touched up in 70's and 80's and sold. Maybe the grandfather bought some of these cards from a shady dealer back then.
PSA is really good at finding altered/touched up vintage cards. They know what to look for. Most can't be seen by the naked eye.

It has to be the flaw. These cards weren't looked at in the 70s or 80s. Wait'll you see the scans.

 

[nyc3]

Re: OK, I'm a Little Pissed at PSA

I dont know what you are not understanding, the flaw would be listed as that if a print mark or a ding the card would suffer a surface subtraction. Now if that ding or print mark was ALTERED to look better than it gets an altered grade. If if was off centered and her grandfather cut it with scissors to look better it would considered altered since it was trimmed. They dont give a altered grade for imperfections or flaws.

 

[allstars]

Re: OK, I'm a Little Pissed at PSA

I dont know what you are not understanding, the flaw would be listed as that if a print mark or a ding the card would suffer a surface subtraction. Now if that ding or print mark was ALTERED to look better than it gets an altered grade. If if was off centered and her grandfather cut it with scissors to look better it would considered altered since it was trimmed. They dont give a altered grade for imperfections or flaws.

If you're talking to me I understand all that perfectly. I already said that it is clear that the flaw is as is. It's plain as day, in fact it was the first thing I noticed once i got done drooling. It has no scratches & is not trimmed. I'm saying that they are wrong. The card was put in a shoebox along with several hundred other cards in the 50's. There were 51 & 52 Bowman's, some 50 Bowman Football, some Horrors of War **** cards...get the picture? They came out of the shoebox last week. People didn't repair cards in the 50's, it wasn't done at all until the late 70's. I'd bet cash they'll grade the other 11 cards from the same shoebox.

 

[nyc3]

Re: OK, I'm a Little Pissed at PSA

I have a box of cards my grandfather trimmed to take off the borders to look better when he was a kid. So yes they did alter cards in the 50s just not for money for eye appeal. It could be as simple as a print dot colored by crayon that you wouldn't notice unless you put it under the jewelers lens. So unless this flaw was messed with that shouldn't be the problem.

 

[wolfmanalfredo]

Re: OK, I'm a Little Pissed at PSA

It must have been trimmed. I've got a 57 Mays that should be an 8 or better, but it came back as trimmed. I'd say don't blame a grader because you tried to grade a trimmed card. Graders know what they're doing, and if its altered, it's altered. I've been f'd over by psa a couple of times like this, but if its altered, its altered! Don't trust everyone you see. I bought a collection from a 79 year old woman, and over 80% of the cards were trimmed.

When it comes to vintage, buy with your eyes and not with your heart. Trust in me that it will save you lots of money in the long run.

 

[wolfmanalfredo]

Re: OK, I'm a Little Pissed at PSA

Always fully examine cards and measure them multiple times before sending them in to be graded. Its a common newbie mistake to overlook those two things, and it looks like you made those mistakes.

 

[leatherman]

Re: OK, I'm a Little Pissed at PSA

I have seen countless times where a person put a pencil mark on the card as a kid and then erased it, especially on checklist cards. These are considered "altered" by PSA. Phil Mason had a large collection of cards he acquired with small X's in pencil on the back, which could have easily been erased. Instead, he chose to send them to PSA with the marks and all were slabbed with the MK qualifier. Look over that Mathews RC again and see if there was ever any erasing done to the card. It doesn't take much for it to be altered.


David

 

[BunchOBull]

Re: OK, I'm a Little Pissed at PSA

If you have a blacklight, backlit LED, and 10x loupe, you'll find the alteration.

If it's a trim, the you'll see a difference in the cardboard's surface banding...the ply will look different.

If any of the edges are razor sharp, sans rough cut, it's a trim.

With a card of that stature, you should be able to get a simple "authentic" slab.

Also, there have been many thousands of people selling their grandfather's shoebox full of old cards...look at Craig's List and eBay...you know this. I'd guess less than 1% are as naive as they attempt to make themselves out to be.


My honest opinion is that, if it came back altered, you're probably SOL with future attempts from PSA. Had it came back as minimum size required or something like that, it would have been worth resub.