Pittsburgh Pirates are hitting .119 as a team...

[markakis8]

I know it's only 6 games but man, that has to be difficult to watch. .119. They have 2 guys hitting over .200 - Marte and McCutchen - .261 and .238 respectively.

They could get shutout today and go 4 for 31 as a team and raise their batting average, haha.

 

[morgoth]

I paid for MLB Extra Innings to watch that crap too

 

[jimmyjam1973]

Surprised? I can't believe it's been over 20 years since they finished over .500.

 

[gmarutiak]

The Reds scored more runs in one inning than the Pirates have all season.

 

[OscarOne]

I have no worries that they will bounce back. They may not be a winning team yet, but they have too much talent to have this last too much longer. Especially Marte, Andrew McCutchen.

 

[gmarutiak]

I have no worries that they will bounce back. They may not be a winning team yet, but they have too much talent to have this last too much longer. Especially Marte, Andrew McCutchen.

I hope you're correct, but I just don't see it.

Guys like Clint Barmes and Gaby Sanchez don't belong on a Major League bench, let alone an opening day roster. Pedro Alvarez can crush the ball, but never saw a pitch he didn't like, and seems to have no approach whatsoever when he comes up to the plate. Garret Jones had a career year last year, so I don't expect him to come close to the numbers he put up in 2012.

Andrew McCutchen might be the best all-around player in the game, but why pitch to him?

Ownership has it all figured out. They are making money without putting a decent product on the field. Why pay players more money when you can fill the ballpark with a few fireworks shows or a Kool & the Gang concert? Brilliant!

 

[morgoth]

Missing out on draft picks has hurt them much worse than people realize.

2009 the entire draft looks lost. Tony Sanchez may never even make it as a backup let alone a starter.

They are 3 years away from having any impact bats land at the ML level. The FO has failed in it's FA pickups and trades by and large. Spending a ton of money on high upside HS pitchers with projectable body types

 

[jimfalbo21]

I hope you're correct, but I just don't see it.

Guys like Clint Barmes and Gaby Sanchez don't belong on a Major League bench, let alone an opening day roster. Pedro Alvarez can crush the ball, but never saw a pitch he didn't like, and seems to have no approach whatsoever when he comes up to the plate. Garret Jones had a career year last year, so I don't expect him to come close to the numbers he put up in 2012.

Andrew McCutchen might be the best all-around player in the game, but why pitch to him?

Ownership has it all figured out. They are making money without putting a decent product on the field. Why pay players more money when you can fill the ballpark with a few fireworks shows or a Kool & the Gang concert? Brilliant!

Certainly their statistics will level out, as this kind of offensive impotence is unsustainable.

Clint Barmes ranks among the top 5 defensive SS by almost any of the advanced fielding metrics...Gaby Sanchez has raked against LHP's throughout his career and is the perfect platoon partner for Garrett Jones. to say that neither are MLB players is ludicrous. Yes, Jones had his best year last year, but it is worth noting that 84% of his PA's were against RHP's...thus he capitalized on Hurdle putting him in a situation to optimize his strengths. If he is used similarly this season the results should be similar. Pedro Alvarez certainly struggles to have consistent ab's, but remains one of our only sources of power...until he improves his approach, he will continue to be tantalizing to watch.

 

[jimfalbo21]

Missing out on draft picks has hurt them much worse than people realize.

2009 the entire draft looks lost. Tony Sanchez may never even make it as a backup let alone a starter.

They are 3 years away from having any impact bats land at the ML level. The FO has failed in it's FA pickups and trades by and large. Spending a ton of money on high upside HS pitchers with projectable body types

The drafting failures are certainly underplayed...Tony Sanchez will make the at some point mlb based on his defense...however whether he can stick as a backup will be determined by his ability to hit. It is worth noting that Starling Marte projects as an impact bat, however I agree that our potential minor lg impact bats are several years away. The $$ that we've spent on the over slot HS pitchers (Von Rosenberg etc.) has certainly been wasted as those guys have not improved their velocity and skill levels and are on the verge of becoming non-prospects. Luckily the Latin player such as Herrera, Polanco, Heredia, and Hanson and other lower draft picks such as Glasnow, Holmes, McPherson, and Kingham look like they will all have a chance to play at the MLB level. Add them to guys such as Cole, Taillon, Josh Bell, Wyatt Mathieson, and Barrett Barnes and we have a strong minor lg system.

Some of the guys who have come over in trade have had success and/or are getting an opportunity at the MLB level: A.J.. Burnett, W. Rodriguez, Jeff Locke, Mark Melancon, James McDonald, Josh Harrison, McKenry, Gaby Sanchez, Jose Tabata, and Travis Snider. Guys at the MiLB level like Bryan Morris, Jerry Sands, Stolmy Pimental, Andy Oliver have a chance to get a chance w the big lg club.

Yes there have been numerous failures as well, but the moves that the team has made during the current regime have put us into the best position the organization has been in since 1992. It's also worth noting that extending McCutchen before last season potentailly saved them team $50-70 mil based on the Posey deal.

 

[gmarutiak]

The drafting failures are certainly underplayed...Tony Sanchez will make the at some point mlb based on his defense...however whether he can stick as a backup will be determined by his ability to hit. It is worth noting that Starling Marte projects as an impact bat, however I agree that our potential minor lg impact bats are several years away. The $$ that we've spent on the over slot HS pitchers (Von Rosenberg etc.) has certainly been wasted as those guys have not improved their velocity and skill levels and are on the verge of becoming non-prospects. Luckily the Latin player such as Herrera, Polanco, Heredia, and Hanson and other lower draft picks such as Glasnow, Holmes, McPherson, and Kingham look like they will all have a chance to play at the MLB level. Add them to guys such as Cole, Taillon, Josh Bell, Wyatt Mathieson, and Barrett Barnes and we have a strong minor lg system.

Some of the guys who have come over in trade have had success and/or are getting an opportunity at the MLB level: A.J.. Burnett, W. Rodriguez, Jeff Locke, Mark Melancon, James McDonald, Josh Harrison, McKenry, Gaby Sanchez, Jose Tabata, and Travis Snider. Guys at the MiLB level like Bryan Morris, Jerry Sands, Stolmy Pimental, Andy Oliver have a chance to get a chance w the big lg club.

Yes there have been numerous failures as well, but the moves that the team has made during the current regime have put us into the best position the organization has been in since 1992. It's also worth noting that extending McCutchen before last season potentailly saved them team $50-70 mil based on the Posey deal.

Bob Nutting, is that you?

 

[jimfalbo21]

Bob Nutting, is that you?

typical trite and empty "yinzer" response

 

[gmarutiak]

Ok, not to be empty and trite, but please cite your sources showing me that Barmes is a top 5 defensive ss, and that Sanchez "rakes" against lhps. Links would be most appreciated. Thanks in advance.

 

[gmarutiak]

By the way, you seem to be a big fan of the regime that decided not to pull the trigger on a trade for Justin Upton before the trade deadline last season.

 

[jimfalbo21]

Ok, not to be empty and trite, but please cite your sources showing me that Barmes is a top 5 defensive ss, and that Sanchez "rakes" against lhps. Links would be most appreciated. Thanks in advance.

On Clint Barmes (all stats can be found on this page) Major League Leaderboards » 2013 » Shortstops » Fielding Statistics | FanGraphs Baseball

2010-2013 Tops Defensive SS total UZR (min. 2500 innings): via fangraphs
1. Brendan Ryan
2. Alexei Ramirez
3. J.J. Hardy
4. Clint Barmes
5. Jonny Peralta
6. Jimmy Rollins
7. Elvis Andrus
8. Troy Tulowitski
9. Yunel Escobar
10. Stephen Drew

2010-13 If you put use UZR as a rate statistic (UZR/150) (min. 2500 innings): via fangraphs
1. Brendan Ryan
2. Clint Barmes
3. J.J. Hardy
4. Jonny Peralta
5. Alexei Ramirez
6. Jimmy Rollins
7. Troy Tulowitski
8. Elvis Andrus
9. Yunel Escobar
10. Stephen Drew

2010-2013 RngR (Range Runs) (min. 2500 innings): via fangraphs
1. Brendan Ryan
2. Elvis Andrus
3. J.J. Hardy
4. Alexei Ramirez
5. Clint Barmes
6. Starlin Castro
7. Jonny Peralta
8. Ian Desmond
9. Yunel Escobar
10. Cliff Pennington

2010-2013 DRS (Defensive Runs Saved) (min. 2500 innings): via fangraphs
1. Brendan Ryan
2. Alexei Ramirez
3. Clint Barmes
4. Alex Gonzalez
5. Yunel Escobar
6. Troy Tulowitski
7. J.J. Hardy
8. Alcides Escobar
9. Cliff Pennington
10. Elvis Andrus

2010-2013 RZR (Revised Zone Rating) (min. 2500 innings): via fangraphs Revised Zone Rating is the proportion of balls hit into a fielder’s zone that he successfully converted into an out.
1. Clint Barmes
2. Jimmy Rollins
3. J.J. Hardy
4. Jonny Peralta
5. Brendan Ryan
6. Troy Tulowitski
7. Yunel Escobar
8. Alexei Ramirez
9. Alex Gonzalez
10. Elvis Andrus

On Gaby Sanchez: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?id=sanchga01&year=Career&t=b

Gaby Sanchez career stats:
Vs. LHP
.287/.383/.476 over 448 PA’s 131 OPS+ (100 is the lg average, 120 is considered all-star caliber)
Vs. RHP
.246/.313/.395 over 1233 PA’s 89 OPS+ (100 is the lg average, 120 is considered all-star caliber)

 

[jimfalbo21]

By the way, you seem to be a big fan of the regime that decided not to pull the trigger on a trade for Justin Upton before the trade deadline last season.

I'm not a huge fan of Huntington, but he certainly has the organization in the best shape it's been since 1992. And I'm very glad that we didn't unload Taillon in a potential deal for Upton. The only way the Pirates will ever have a true "ace" will be from drafting and developing...Taillon and Cole certainly have that type of potential. And while I think Justin Upton is a very good all around player, I'm not rushing to call him an elite player based on his having an awesome first 7 games. Don't forget Wandy and Burnett are both FA's at the end of the season, and may not be back next year...2014 looks more promising with Taillon and Cole in the rotation than Upton in RF, considering the alternatives.

 

[jimfalbo21]

Wow, Pirates have the "B" team in today...McDonald and Harrison starting

 

[morgoth]

Yeah today's team is atrocious and J. Sanchez is a horrible option as a starter, ughh.

I agree about the teams direction is better but the strategy they are trying to employ is pretty well established by the A's, Rays, Twins etc. I have an issue with execution.

Cole and Taillon to me don't give the FO a big plus mark as they were highly rated DP's and the team had the 1 or 2 pick overall to use on them. If they had taken Machado over Taillon we still would be happy.

NH was behind the idea to punt the first round in 2009 and go for broke with over slot HS arms. That was a failure.

Without our international signings of which virtually our entire non pitcher prospect talent pool comes from is basically run by someone not named Neal Hunnington.

We do have a good farm system for sure but we have a 2 to 3 year gap now between Cole/Taillon and the good hitting prospects. To me this is FO's failure. Knowing they had missed on some DP's especially at SS and C they didn't do anything to try and get a legit prospect in AA or AAA with any of the trades.

You mention our dirth of cast offs, AAAA and barley replacement level players we have on the roster and at AAA. We have been hoping for what 4/5 years one of these guys would pan out. Garret Jones did, yeah but everyone else has failed. Travis Snider is a platoon player but could be effective but Inge, Presley, Tabata, Hague etc are all non factors if we plan on winning. Could they fill in for a few games, sure but we know what happens if we run Presley out there 20 days in a row for example.

Another issue is Pedro. He is looking more and more like a platoon player.

 

[vwnut13]

Well, at least Pirates fans got a chance to buy playoff tickets last year.


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[jimfalbo21]

Yeah today's team is atrocious and J. Sanchez is a horrible option as a starter, ughh.

I agree about the teams direction is better but the strategy they are trying to employ is pretty well established by the A's, Rays, Twins etc. I have an issue with execution.

Cole and Taillon to me don't give the FO a big plus mark as they were highly rated DP's and the team had the 1 or 2 pick overall to use on them. If they had taken Machado over Taillon we still would be happy.

NH was behind the idea to punt the first round in 2009 and go for broke with over slot HS arms. That was a failure.

Without our international signings of which virtually our entire non pitcher prospect talent pool comes from is basically run by someone not named Neal Hunnington.

We do have a good farm system for sure but we have a 2 to 3 year gap now between Cole/Taillon and the good hitting prospects. To me this is FO's failure. Knowing they had missed on some DP's especially at SS and C they didn't do anything to try and get a legit prospect in AA or AAA with any of the trades.

You mention our dirth of cast offs, AAAA and barley replacement level players we have on the roster and at AAA. We have been hoping for what 4/5 years one of these guys would pan out. Garret Jones did, yeah but everyone else has failed. Travis Snider is a platoon player but could be effective but Inge, Presley, Tabata, Hague etc are all non factors if we plan on winning. Could they fill in for a few games, sure but we know what happens if we run Presley out there 20 days in a row for example.

Another issue is Pedro. He is looking more and more like a platoon player.

I essentially agree with everything you said, as I did with your first post...except for the trading (although I was careful with my wording!). A kindergartner with a baseball america could have picked Gerrit Cole and Taillon...and if not those guys a Dylan Bundy or Manny Machado...at least we didn't go for the " cheap and signable" pick like Moskos and Bullington etc. No, we are not executing as well as the A's, Rays, and Twins...Even though our minor lg system looks very nice at the lower levels, as I stated earlier I'm not a huge fan of Huntington, especially considering how much nicer our system would look with Miguel Sano waiting in the wings? Don't get me started on that botched signing and utter display of cheapness. I think that situation took several years off of my life.

Re-read my earlier post and notice the careful wording I used concerning the "successful trades"...I carefully wrote "Some of the guys who have come over in trade have had success and/or are getting an opportunity at the MLB level: A.J.. Burnett, W. Rodriguez, Jeff Locke, Mark Melancon, James McDonald, Josh Harrison, McKenry, Gaby Sanchez, Jose Tabata, and Travis Snider. Guys at the MiLB level like Bryan Morris, Jerry Sands, Stolmy Pimental, Andy Oliver have a chance to get a chance w the big lg club."

I don't think any of the guys I mentioned can be considered total failures at this point. Of course I didn't mention Craig Hansen, Andy LaRoche, Jeff Clement, Brandon Moss etc.

I never mentioned Presley, Hague, and Inge either...Hague is a replacement level player, Presley is a potentially decent #4 OF nothing more, and Inge is a minor lg FA signing. I did mention Tabata, and at one point he was our #2 ranked prospect and had early success as a leadoff hitter while showing the ability to hit for average and to get on base. If he can return to that level, then we could still have an above average MLB player. I wouldn't hold my breath but he's still just 24, so I'm not ready to give up on him yet. I think Snider needs to prove sooner rather than later that he can play at the MLB level...and Alvarez has looked like a platoon player, however I believe he should be given every opportunity to prove that he can at least hold his own against lefties. Playing Harrison (or Inge when his rehab is over), is certainly not helping the club long term, as both are fringe bench players.

Also, thanks for the response...It's refreshing to hear from another Pirates fan who actually knows what is going on with the organization, and can make worthwhile comments concerning the Buccos! Not to mention someone who 90-95% agrees with me!

 

[jimfalbo21]

Well, at least Pirates fans got a chance to buy playoff tickets last year.


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Rub salt in the wound!!! In the name of Steve Blass, haven't we suffered enough?