pudge retires

[hive17]

I think it's absolutely fair to argue that Pudge is one of the five best all-around catchers of all time.

Personally, I think he is a HoFer. Of course, I also think the same about Bonds, McGwire, Clemens, and the others who dominated the game during the "Steroid Era."

BUT...if Pudge did, indeed, take steroids, I don't think any of us can say that it didn't help improve aspects of his game such as his defense or his endurance. Catchers' bodies break down more quickly than those of any other position. Steroids don't just make guys hit home runs. They also let them squat down behind the plate for 150+ games for 20 years.

(hive17, I hope it doesn't seem like I'm trying to be disrespectful to you, or even argue with you, because I'm definitely not. I just worry about how my tone comes across in emails and posts sometimes!)

No, I hear you. And I understand that PEDs can extend a career. I guess my point was more about the writers, in that they put a catcher in now, or not for another decade.

 

[mjbuchanan80]

Guilt by association? If you truly believe Rodriguez never used, especially after Canseco said he shot him up, you are either blindly biased, willfully ignorant or just plain stupid. He wouldn't even deny it when asked.

I never said that I truely believe he didn't use - I don't know if he did. Neither do you. I am not a Ranger's fan or a fan of any other team he suited up for - so there goes blindly biased. And "willfully ignorant" and "plain stupid" go out the window because I am a true believer of innocent until proven guilty. He has never popped dirty on a test and the only one coming out and saying he used was Jose freakin' Conseco, one of the biggest attention ****** in the history of life. Dude would say Mother Theresa went down on him if it would get him some play on ESPN. I am not going to shut someone out with his stats and longevity at a premier position when the only thing I have to go on is "uhhh....I got a feeling that maybe he might have....and Canseco said he did...."

Oh and "he wouldn't deny it when asked"? By that logic if I was asked if I killed someone but refused to respond you'ed have my a** in jail.

 

[sportscardtheory]

I never said that I truely believe he didn't use - I don't know if he did. Neither do you. I am not a Ranger's fan or a fan of any other team he suited up for - so there goes blindly biased. And "willfully ignorant" and "plain stupid" go out the window because I am a true believer of innocent until proven guilty. He has never popped dirty on a test and the only one coming out and saying he used was Jose freakin' Conseco, one of the biggest attention ****** in the history of life. Dude would say Mother Theresa went down on him if it would get him some play on ESPN. I am not going to shut someone out with his stats and longevity at a premier position when the only thing I have to go on is "uhhh....I got a feeling that maybe he might have....and Canseco said he did...."

Oh and "he wouldn't deny it when asked"? By that logic if I was asked if I killed someone but refused to respond you'ed have my a** in jail.

C'mon, dude. Open your eyes.

I'm sorry if you have a stash of Gem Mint 1991 Topps Traded Tiffanys, but he did steroids, the Hall voters know it and they won't vote him in.

 

[Austin]

he did steroids, the Hall voters know it and they won't vote him in.

Pudge was not in the Mitchell Report or linked to steroids in any way other than Jose Canseco's claim, which may or not be true.
However, you say HoF voters won't elect him.
The analysts on ESPN and the MLB network both had long discussions on Pudge's career, and it was unanimous among them (many have a HOF vote) that he is a first ballot inductee and top 5 catcher all-time.

 

[uniquebaseballcards]

Pudge was not in the Mitchell Report or linked to steroids in any way other than Jose Canseco's claim, which may or not be true.
However, you say HoF voters won't elect him.
The analysts on ESPN and the MLB network both had long discussions on Pudge's career, and it was unanimous among them (many have a HOF vote) that he is a first ballot inductee and top 5 catcher all-time.

They may call him a first ballot inductee, but did they THINK he'd actually be inducted on the first ballot? Two different things because they don't comprise all the votes.

If enough voters think PEDs make him undeserving of the first ballot... he obviously won't go first ballot.

 

[sportscardtheory]

Pudge was not in the Mitchell Report or linked to steroids in any way other than Jose Canseco's claim, which may or not be true.
However, you say HoF voters won't elect him.
The analysts on ESPN and the MLB network both had long discussions on Pudge's career, and it was unanimous among them (many have a HOF vote) that he is a first ballot inductee and top 5 catcher all-time.

I highly doubt he gets enough votes. They know he used. Any player who has used or been suspected of use has gotten little to no Hall support. If McGwire, Bagwell and Palmeiro can't get in, Pudge sure won't.

 

[elmalo]

Steroid implications prevent him from going in on the first ballot.

I'm totally intrigued to see how this one pans out. Do the Hall voters only choose to keep power hitters (Bonds, McGwire) and power pitchers (Clemens) out of the Hall, or do they wise up and realize that one of the main benefits of steroids lies in shortening recovery time (catchers, pitchers).

I still think it's funny how, for the most part, the average person associates steroids with bulk and muscle, but if you look at the annual batch of Tour de France riders who pee positive, they are some of the thinnest guys in the world.

The tour de France guys dont generally fail the tests due to anabolic steroids. They fail the tests for stuff like EPO. EPO increases red blodd cell production, ideal for endurance athletes due to the fact that oxygen is attached to your red blood cells. Also, different steroids do different things. You can take something like Winstrol, which is a cutting steroid for lean muscle mass, it is not for bulking up. Steroids dont just make you huge. It depends on what you take and what you are looking to get out of them.

 

[elmalo]

He is without a doubt a first ballot Hall of Famer, one of the greatest all around catchers in the history of the game. If he gets in on the first ballot is debatable.

 

[Austin]

I highly doubt he gets enough votes. If McGwire, Bagwell and Palmeiro can't get in, Pudge sure won't.

McGwire admitted drug use.
Palmeiro had a positive drug test.
Bagwell is nowhere in the same class as Rodriguez, who is a top five player all-time at his position, and number one or two defensively.

 

[egon8]

From Wikipedia...
This election (2012) was the last before a flood of potential top-tier candidates was set to enter the ballot in the coming years:[SUP][7][/SUP][SUP][14][/SUP]

• 2013: Craig Biggio, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Mike Piazza, Curt Schilling, Sammy Sosa
• 2014: Tom Glavine, Jeff Kent, Greg Maddux, Mike Mussina, Kenny Rogers, Frank Thomas
• 2015: Carlos Delgado, Randy Johnson, Pedro Martínez, Gary Sheffield, John Smoltz
• 2016: Jim Edmonds, Ken Griffey, Jr., Trevor Hoffman, Billy Wagner

So is Rodriguez eligible in 2016 or 2017?
If it is 2016, he will not be a first ballot.
Carlton Fisk was inducted in his second year, along with Robin Yount, and both should have been a first year, so I see Ivan as a second or third year vote.
If it is 2017, I would expect his chances will be based on who from the lists above get in, if at all.

 

[hive17]

C'mon, dude. Open your eyes.

I'm sorry if you have a stash of Gem Mint 1991 Topps Traded Tiffanys, but he did steroids, the Hall voters know it and they won't vote him in.

Did you guys talk about that in the weekly meeting you have with "the Hall voters", where you discuss exactly how they are going to vote?

 

[hive17]

From Wikipedia...
This election (2012) was the last before a flood of potential top-tier candidates was set to enter the ballot in the coming years:[SUP][7][/SUP][SUP][14][/SUP]

• 2013: Craig Biggio, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Mike Piazza, Curt Schilling, Sammy Sosa
• 2014: Tom Glavine, Jeff Kent, Greg Maddux, Mike Mussina, Kenny Rogers, Frank Thomas
• 2015: Carlos Delgado, Randy Johnson, Pedro Martínez, Gary Sheffield, John Smoltz
• 2016: Jim Edmonds, Ken Griffey, Jr., Trevor Hoffman, Billy Wagner

So is Rodriguez eligible in 2016 or 2017?
If it is 2016, he will not be a first ballot.
Carlton Fisk was inducted in his second year, along with Robin Yount, and both should have been a first year, so I see Ivan as a second or third year vote.
If it is 2017, I would expect his chances will be based on who from the lists above get in, if at all.

It has no relavance to the OP, but you know I have to correct this: Robin Yount was a 1st Ballot Hall of Fame inductee.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1999.shtml#BBWAA

 

[sportscardtheory]

Did you guys talk about that in the weekly meeting you have with "the Hall voters", where you discuss exactly how they are going to vote?

Oh gee, you got me on semantics. I'm sorry that I stated my opinion so colorfully and succinctly. Next time I'll put an "I think" in there so you can keep up.

 

[sportscardtheory]

McGwire admitted drug use.
Palmeiro had a positive drug test.
Bagwell is nowhere in the same class as Rodriguez, who is a top five player all-time at his position, and number one or two defensively.

Jeff Bagwell is one of the best 1st basemen to ever play the game. Easy top-10 to 15. If they keep him out on suspicion alone, Rodriguez doesn't stand a chance, especially since his PED abuse was obvious to anyone with eyes.

 

[egon8]

It has no relavance to the OP, but you know I have to correct this: Robin Yount was a 1st Ballot Hall of Fame inductee.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1999.shtml#BBWAA

Poorly worded post on my part. I stand corrected. Thanks.

 

[egon8]

http://baseballhall.org/hall-famers/rules-election/future-eligibles

This is a link to the Hall of Fame eligibility through 2017. I should have gone here first.

 

[Randy Shields]

Oh gee, you got me on semantics. I'm sorry that I stated my opinion so colorfully and succinctly. Next time I'll put an "I think" in there so you can keep up.

Damn Dude, "I think" that in your "colorfully and succinctly" way of giving your opinion, it has come off rather arrogantly and disrespectfully to those who feel differently on this issue.

You have no clue what the voters will do and neither do I. But at least some can give thery're opinion without being a pinhead.

 

[hive17]

Oh gee, you got me on semantics. I'm sorry that I stated my opinion so colorfully and succinctly. Next time I'll put an "I think" in there so you can keep up.

Well, that would make you sound less like an ******; however your response here doesn't...

 

[sportscardtheory]

Damn Dude, "I think" that in your "colorfully and succinctly" way of giving your opinion, it has come off rather arrogantly and disrespectfully to those who feel differently on this issue.

You have no clue what the voters will do and neither do I. But at least some can give thery're opinion without being a pinhead.

Yes, let's please talk about our f-ing feelings. I'm sorry if me having a strong opinion hurts your feelings. Feel better?

 

[sportscardtheory]

What is this country coming to that people actually get offended or feel disrespected when someone states an opinion that differs from their own. My freaking lord.