Roger Clemens' place in the Hobby........ Seriously

[klute14]

I am not sure if many know but I used to actively collect Roger Clemens back in the day.
I stopped my collection of his around 2003 because his cards were numbering in the 700-800 range with each new year.
Anyway, I have about 2,500 different cards with about 90-95% complete from 1984-1996.
I stopped trying to get the cards I needed around the time the crap started to hit the fan.

I have had an internal debate about what to do with my collection. Do I sell it, keep it or start to add to it again?
I am afraid that if I decide to sell it as a whole collection, I won't get what I would have prior to this crap with streoids and HGH.
However, I say to myself, if I won't get what I would have 10 years ago, I must be able to fill holes for cheaper then what I was paying 10 years ago.
I have been poking around various sites and boy was I wrong. His prices are stronger than ever! Cards that have BO's on them aren't moving for anything less than 10% of asking price.
What am I missing? Is he still that collectible? If not, why haven't his prices come down?
My guess is that people are still holding out hope that he will be proven innocent and that his place in baseball history will be restored.
Unfortunately, I don't believe that to be the case.

Thougts and opinions welcome.

 

[clarkfan]

I've bought a lot of Clemens stuff the last few years. I'd say his really good stuff is still selling pretty strong, but the mid tier stuff or low end stuff, and a lot of his autograph and jersey stuff has come way down. He still has a few big spending collector's out there, but he was 1 of the most collected players in the hobby pre steroid era, so even with a big drop off of fans, there are still some left, but they are going after high end or really rare.

Like always, selling it by the collection, you'll take a big hit on what you originally spent, especially selling it right now, but the whole collection can get moved before you have second thoughts or a change of heart. If you sell it piece by piece, you'll get the best value for your cards, but takes a lot more time and you'll end up with a bunch of stuff that won't sell for much at all. If you have the key cards (Crusades, Precious Metal Gems, Brilliants 24KT to name a few), I think you'll do ok selling them individually.

 

[clarkfan]

Or, just pick it back up gradually buying the smaller stuff (which is cheap). I bet there a lot of deals out there on his stuff if you look regularly. I've picked up a few that I thought were decent or good buys. I just bought a Clemens Cooperstown Promo from a board member that I've wanted for awhile. Not sure there was much interest outside of me on that one or not, but I really wanted it.

 

[RL24]

Canseco and Bonds are also heavily collected, as wells as many other steroid users. I don't think that Clemens will be found innocent, but I do think in 10 years people will tend to care less, and in 20 years everybody will wonder what the fuss was about anyway...

 

[predatorkj]

I think there are a good number of people out there who start collecting a player and get in way too deep to the point where they don't feel like dumping the collection or stopping it are options. At least that's how I feel whenever I get into a bidding war on Jerry Stackhouse items. I mean seriously wtf collects him besides me? Apparently a lot of folks. The way I have it figured, at least half are of the ilk I just described above.

 

[matfanofold]

Clemens will never be 'proven' innocent, in fact I believe he will be tarnished by popular opinion indefinitly. Having said that, I do believe there may come a time where it may subside and his place as one of if not the best pitcher in the last 50 years will be recognized once more. I really believe 6 CY > PED allegations over the long run. But make no mistake, his cards will NEVER be what they could have been without PED talk, not by a long shot.

 

[mwashuc06]

Yeah I like this thread because I pulled an extremely rare triple auto of Maddux, Martinez, and Clemens from 2006 future stars and if it was Randy Johnson that card would be insane, still is crazy good. I have no idea what it could fetch on the open market. It's not even on the checklist and there might be less than 10.

 

[predatorkj]

Clemens will never be 'proven' innocent, in fact I believe he will be tarnished by popular opinion indefinitly. Having said that, I do believe there may come a time where it may subside and his place as one of if not the best pitcher in the last 50 years will be recognized once more. I really believe 6 CY > PED allegations over the long run. But make no mistake, his cards will NEVER be what they could have been without PED talk, not by a long shot.

I'm of the belief(probably in the minority too) that a pitcher taking steroidal supplements isn't as big of a deal as a hitter. After all, you can only throw so hard. At the base is a solid foundation for being able to locate pitches properly. The steroids only, from what I can figure out, help with recovery time. The same can be said for having to be able to hit a ball. You have to be able to do that before anything else can come into play. But taking steroids, there is a weird correlation between them and people all of a sudden hitting 60+ homers a season for several consecutive seasons when the mark had not even been breached in 30 some odd years. Can anyone point to any of these pitchers named and tell me, other than recovery time of course, exactly what changed for the pitchers? Were they throwing harder? More? Not from what I've seen. Unfair advantage maybe. But the tangible differences for hitters and pitchers, stuff that can be physically seen in performance, is like night and day. Besides...the kinds they were taking were different for sure.

 

[agentjak]

If it helps or not, there is a pretty damn good guy by the name of Jeff Masters(on these boards) who has a massive collection of Clemens(and as far as I know, the largest PSA registery of Clemens as well)..This dude's collection of Clemens is by far the sickest I've ever seen..He might be able to give you hand.. but his knowledge of Clemens, probably cant be matched by many, so he might have some great idea's as to where to start, how to part with certain cards and so forth..So look him up and give him a holler and tell him I said hello as well..Always hate to see a great collection of anyone being broke up like your trying to do, but I know alot of folks still collect Clemens(I know I still do) and I bet you have more then a few cards other collectors would love to have.

drake

 

[Donutme]

Some of us are still out here bidding. LOL.
I know myself and Jeff are still grabbing some. Somewhere Mindgone is lurking and grabbing cards too.
I have a ton of stuff. I am a fan. I started collecting baseball cards for the love of the game. Clemens cards ... I am in until the end. I would not sell. I could not sell anyways due to the loss of what the difference would be. The PED stuff killed those of us who have huge collections. I hope my kids enjoy the collection some day. I really hope I will get to see some young RHP who comes through the majors and has a career similiar to his.
Alot of posts in this thread have what I think to be valid facts about Clemens and hobby.

but he was 1 of the most collected players in the hobby pre steroid era <<< True
I don't think that Clemens will be found innocent, but I do think in 10 years people will tend to care less, and in 20 years everybody will wonder what the fuss was about anyway... <<< True


Clemens has a long road ahead.
Look at AROD and GIAMBI. Both came forward. Both still playing. I want to see how AROD's treatment gets if he gets close to Aaron HR number. He will be a big test for those who forgive and forget.
I will always collect who I feel will be the greatest RHP in my lifetime. He was dominant long before the PED crap. I feel like Bonds he had done enough to have a BUST in Cooperstown before the PEDS. Whether he was an arrogant ****** on the bump or a pitcher who strived for greatness. He succeeded at every level he played.
He wanted the ball. Especially when he got mad. Straight gas. I knew. You knew. They knew. What was coming and it did not matter. Same as Verlander acted tonight.
Maddux is a great RHP. He was never mentioned with Clemens due to not being a true power pitcher. Only Pedro had a run during Clemens career that took attention away from the Rocket. IMO.
Well ... I guess my small rant is over and off to scan ebay for Clemens items !

 

[tramers]

Ban ALL the illegal drug users from any event sponsored by MLB , NFL ,NBA NHL etc . Then go after the type that Clemens is accused of .

 

[uniquebaseballcards]

After the hard-core collectors it falls off. Someone like me who doesn't collect Clemens may want to pick up something of his, but simply would never pay premium prices. Of course there's a lot of people who won't want his cards at all.

It reminds me a bit of popular Japanese players - there's a "crazy" hard-core base that will treat the guy like a top superstar in Japan, but in the U.S. he's treated like a semi-star or minor star.

 

[smapdi]

He's still collectable, 90s-early 2000s cards are super-hot right now, he was great before if/when he started PEDing, and PEDs are not a big deal to a lot of people. That anyone would pay a penny for a card of someone like John Rocker or anyone like that is more amazing to me than the increasing amount of money paid for Clemens, McGwire, etc.

 

[DeliciousBacon]

Back in the early to mid 90's, Clemens was the face of a chicken restaurant in Rhode Island called, appropriately, Roger Clemen's Flame Roasted Chicken:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHy7X4P5I38

My aunt's father was his accountant for this restaurant, and he was able to score me an auto'd ball, at the time when Clemens was my favorite player. The day he signed with Toronto, I went and sold that ball, and that was the last time his stuff had any hobby value for me. His cards can be found really cheap at shows around here, and they often go unsold. I have a few Clemens on COMC that I can't give away, even at 70-75% off. Now, instead of just being a traitor, he's a traitor, a cheat, and a liar.

 

[mwashuc06]

Love this card I own.

 

[nosterbor]

Collect him now and fill the holes!!!
10 years ago i would never have been able to get this card for less than $500.

I got it last year for $150. Juan still goes for big bucks. That is why i stopped collecting him . i was at 79% Unique
of his cards listed before starting to sell off, and that is with 421 1/1s take out the 1/1s and i would have been in the 90%+++ range.

Every card i needed was going in the $300+ range. It got just nuts!
I have sold off only 3% Unique of that collection. I did very well.

 

[jmc855]

interesting thread to stumble on 11 years later as a Clemens guy who wasn't even aware of this forum til 2013 or so and collected mostly "silently" during this time. Seems things are the same, and if you thought the 90s cards were expensive in 2012, the last 3 years made that look like a pauper's market lol. Hype ! hype ! everywhere! and prices inflated to the moon (along with our currency I guess, so.....). Some stuff can be found cheap and ignored because it seems to not fit the tastes of the upper crust, and other stuff is plain crazy, like the cost of ANY Dynasty card, even the common ones and the total nonsense surrounding PMGs and Fusion Titaniums . I ll stay on the Rocket train, been zhere since '86. There's been no proof of anything after all these years, just allegations over and over and two court trials that never found him guilty of anything. Greatest RHP ever w Nolan a close 2nd. Wonder what the next 10 year comment will say........

 

[heavy_hitter]

I remember how badly the government botched the case against Clemens by playing the jury a piece of video of Andy Pettitte's wife that the judge had deemed prejudicial:

Judge declares mistrial in Clemens perjury case

The judge presiding over Roger Clemens' perjury trial declared a mistrial over evidence revealed to the jury that he believed would prejudice the jury against the former baseball star.

www.espn.com

 

[jmc855]

I remember how badly the government botched the case against Clemens by playing the jury a piece of video of Andy Pettitte's wife that the judge had deemed prejudicial:

Judge declares mistrial in Clemens perjury case

The judge presiding over Roger Clemens' perjury trial declared a mistrial over evidence revealed to the jury that he believed would prejudice the jury against the former baseball star.

www.espn.com

Yeah, not a sharp move. Seemed like a lot of he said she said, starting with the Mitchell report where Macnamee admitted on the stand that he lied to the people on the probe from the get go, then kept lying through depositions and witness testimony. Then there was the circumspect "evidence" he claimed to have kept, but kept changing the details on when he got it, how he got it, and how he kept it, and why he kept it. I remember some report after where either a juror or alternate basically said, he lied so much there was no way to trust any of what he said. Rusty Hardin is a sharp trial lawyer, compared to the buffoons the government used while wasting tax money on baseball investigations. Some of our hungry people could have been fed, health services delivered to veterans who deserve them, so many other things could have been accomplished with all the money spent over the years from Mitchell report onward. But nah, we kept a couple guys who play a declining sport from having a plaque in a building in a small town in upstate NY instead.

 

[mrmopar]

Was surprised to see the thread was as old as it was when it started. It read like it could have been today.

That Triple with Maddux as a Dodger is mighty fine. Would love to have one.