aarne13
Active member
Sad to see Halladay retire. I had hoped he would come back to the Jays to play out his career. One memory that I remember most is his no-hitter in the post season. He's a HOFer in my opinion.
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Roy "Doc" Halladay Retiring (As a Blue Jay)
- Thread starter Jaypers
- Start date
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PeteD
Active member
the Hall of very good? he threw 2 no-hitters...one in the playoffs.
the HOF needs more classy guys.
the HOF needs more classy guys.
michaelstepper
Well-known member
Yes he had a great year. I'm not trying to say yes he is or isn't a HOF. But he barely has 200 wins in 15 seasons. Great in its own right. And what 2300k's? Randy Johnson who will be in the HOF played 20 seasons.. Had 303 wins and 4800k's. That's 100 more wins and 2500 ks in only a 5 year difference. Pedro martinez would be his closest comparison playing 17 seasons. Amassing a slew of individual season accomplishments and records BUT only a little over 200 wins himself with over 3100ks. And he's considered a sure fire HOF. IMHO Roy was great but not hof. For the record I'd love to expunge a few that are in there now.
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HPC
New member
DAE Mariano Rivera and Roy Halladay inauguaral members to the Hall of Classy lololololololol xD
shayscards79
New member
People knock 200 wins, but lets be honest, in this day and age it's the standard for great pitchers. Complete games are like seeing a lunar eclipse.
scotty216brs
Active member
THANK YOU! Annoying to see people write ~only~ so and so wins. That's a lot of wins in today's game of baseball. I mean we've had what, 16 20-game winners since 06'? Only pitchers that IMO have a shot at 200+ wins are: Verlander, Hernandez, Weaver, Lester, Greinke, Buehrle, etc...and even they have a LONG ways to go.
It's funny how everyone says how wins are overrated but they have no problem using wins as an argument against a player. Silly if you ask me. It's also ignorant to use strikeouts as an argument against Halladay, he was not known as a strikeout pitcher, but was just as [if not more] effective than one. He was a control pitcher, and did it better than anyone. Halladay is a HOFer, maybe not first ballot but he will get in and deserves to. I think if you are one of the best players of your respective era, then you deserve to be in the HOF. That's why Jim Rice is in the HOF, as he was one of the best hitters of his era. Did he have 3,000 hits or 500HR? No, but how many players were better offensively between the mid 70's and mid 80's? To me, a decade of dominance is on par with two decades of above average.
Just my $.02
michaelstepper
Well-known member
300 wins is only averaging 15 wins over 20 seasons. I agree the wins argument is flawed but I personally still think 225-250 wins is a nice round number for pitchers now days over extended career
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markakis8
Active member
- Oct 31, 2008
- 12,081
- 2
Pedro only had 219 wins and he's a lock for 1st ballot. Sandy Koufax had less than 200. It's pretty evident that his shoulder injury is what is forcing him into retirement, no different that Sandy's arm or Kirby Puckett's eye. Just nature of the game.
let's put it this way - Roy Halladay is 17th ALL time in winning % for those that qualify and he played on some atrocious and mediocre teams, only making the playoffs twice in his career. 98 career wins over .500 and having over 200 wins is pretty damn impressive with that bare of a playoff resume.
I think he's a 1st ballot HOF, but it wouldn't surprise me if he didn't get in first crack. There's no way he lasts longer than 3 years on the ballot.
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fkw
New member
Halladay.... the Orel Hershiser, FernandoV, Vida Blue, Frank Tanana, Jack Morris of the 21 Century
............NOT a HOFer!
(only) 10 seasons w/ 10+ wins.....
(only) 6 seasons with a sub 3.00 era
(only) 5 seasons with 200+ SOs
(only) 20 shutouts in 16 years (Fernando had 8 his first complete season, and more than 20 by the time he was 23 yrs old)
1.18 career WHiP
PS his 2000 season was the worst season by a pitcher (2.2 whip, 10+ era, etc.) Ive ever seen.... so he did come a long way, but never (should be in) the Hall of Fame!
............NOT a HOFer!
(only) 10 seasons w/ 10+ wins.....
(only) 6 seasons with a sub 3.00 era
(only) 5 seasons with 200+ SOs
(only) 20 shutouts in 16 years (Fernando had 8 his first complete season, and more than 20 by the time he was 23 yrs old)
1.18 career WHiP
PS his 2000 season was the worst season by a pitcher (2.2 whip, 10+ era, etc.) Ive ever seen.... so he did come a long way, but never (should be in) the Hall of Fame!
aarne13
Active member
Halladay tried to give it another chance during fall instructs. His FB topped out in the low 80's, that was the final straw for him.
scotty216brs
Active member
Noooo....not good comparisons. Halladay was one of the best pitchers of his era, the same could NOT be said about any of those pitchers you listed.
You seem to not be giving him credit for the era in which he played in (steroid era) and also the division he played in (AL East...Boston/NYY, nuff' said). It's not fair to compare Halladay to pitchers of old because the game is played a lot differently then it was even 20 years ago. By that I mean how pitchers no longer go the distance and almost always are taken out by the 7th inning because of pitch counts and whatnot....25 game winners are a thing of the past.
He is 4th in active career wins, and I see maybe a handful (at most) pitchers getting more career wins then his 203. If you want to talk WL% which you seem to be overlooking, he is 17th ALL-TIME (Better than Koufax, Dean, Palmer, Gomez, Brown, Marichal, Feller, Joss, Young, etc.....)
Again, because of the era and the division he played in, that is very impressive. From 93' to 08' there were 10 or less pitchers with an ERA of less than 3.00 every year. A 3.00 ERA in the steroid era is like a 2.25 ERA 30 years ago. You've probably heard of the stat ERA+, which compares a pitchers ERA to the league average and adjusts it to their respective ballpark? Well 100 is league average and over Roy Halladay's career he has a 131 ERA+. That is good for 35th all-time, puts him right next to Sandy Koufax. So essentially if Koufax played in the same timeframe of Halladay he would have had a career ERA a little over a half run higher. (Because more runs are scored when Halladay pitched and the league ERA was much higher). That ERA+ puts him ahead of greats such as: Hubbell, Gibson, Gomez, Palmer, Vance, Marichal, Feller, Drysdale, etc...
I don't know why I need to say this again but Halladay was not a strikeout pitcher but a control pitcher, so it's not a strong point to use strikeouts against him. Instead let's take a look at his strikeouts compared to his walks. His career K/9 of 6.93 is not surprisingly great (123rd all-time) but if you take a look at his BB/9 of 1.93 (2nd out of active pitchers/77th all-time) that is very good, especially when you compare him to pitchers of his era. Now let's put them together, he has a career 3.57 K/BB....5th best for active pitchers and 16th best all-time, better than legends such as: Mathewson, Koufax, Seaver, Johnson, Gibson, etc....I may be in the minority of people who believe Schilling should be in the hall, but his career K/BB of 4.38 is 2nd ALL-TIME to only Tommy Bond who pitched in the 1800's. VERY impressive if you ask me.
Again, it's a different ballgame when Halladay pitched. Nowadays pitchers won't go more than 7 innings because of pitch counts and the closers always have to pitch the 9th inning, etc. When you factor all of that in, Halladay was the top pitcher of the 2000's to go the distance. He may 'only' have had 20 SHO but that is 5 more than ANY active pitcher in baseball today. His 67 CG might not be a lot compared to pitchers way back in the day but as for active pitchers, he has 30 more CG than any pitcher in baseball. It's not even close and no pitcher will come within 20, no doubt. He led the league in CG's 7 times, so I would consider him a modern day workhorse.
Is this supposed to be a knock against Halladay? He is 8th in active WHIP and 97th all-time. While 97th isn't great it is better than HOF pitchers: Bunning, Palmer, Perry, Gibson, Spahn, Dean, Ford, Vance, Gossage, Marquard, Carlton, Ryan, Grove, Feller, Wynn, etc...
While Halladay might not be your prototypical first ballot HOFer, he is one of the top 50 pitchers of all time, whether you want to admit it or not...and most definitely deserves to have a plaque in the hall.
