S.I. The Last Iconic Baseball Card: '89 UD Griffey

[sportscardtheory]

[quote="sportscardtheory":3ijekblz][quote="predatorkj":3ijekblz]


Come on guys.


I am sure he has his own theories but I am sure, if he would just respond to what has been written, we can all at least agree its harder for a kid to feel like they belong in this hobby.And when that happens they go looking for something else.Not all kids.But most of them.

It's hard to respond to what was written when I have to waste time defending myself from childish insults from certain members who feel the need to raise hell when they disagree with me.

Look...none of us get anything out of arguing with you.But a lot of your opinions go against the grain.Now you have two choices.Either state a well presented reason why you believe what you do or you can expect people to not agree with you and this will happen on and outside of the board as well.I think you may have reasons to believe what you do but tell us.Explain them.

I already have, many times. I'm not typing it all again, it's in this thread for all to see. I already told you that I agree kids are not as into the hobby as when I was a kid. But when a grown man tries to tell me the kids that ARE into the hobby don't enjoy it as much as he did when he was young, it's absolutely ludicrous. You can't tell me what other human beings feel, I think that's pretty obvious. Talk to any kid that collects cards and ask them if they enjoy it... of course they do, why would they be doing it if they didn't. I don't need grown men on a message board trying to tell me what goes on inside the heads of children... it's just stupid.

Okay point noted but don't you think your getting a little too technical there?I mean of course nobody knows how to read minds but we have made some pretty valid points as to why a child would not have as much fun collecting these days as they did back in the 80's and 90's.I made, what I thought , was a good stated point.You skip over it?

I'm a very literal person, if you don't know that by now after numerous discussions, I don't know what to tell you. It's just how I am. I will admit when I am proven wrong, but no one here is giving any hard evidence other than they don't see many kids in card shops. You aren't in the card shop 24/7. I saw NUMEROUS kids at the National. Talk to any kid who collects and they will tell you they love it. Enough said. It's not some epidemic of kids not collecting is all I'm saying.[/quote:3ijekblz]


No...I am not.But my shop owner is.I have asked.Not related to anything on this board but out of my own curiosity.He estimates for every 50 people he sees he may see one kid come in(with a parent of course).Just about every person who come sin is 20+ years or older.The owner of the shop I frequent is a Beckett consultant so I would like to believe he is a reputable and important dealer in the Houston area.

Now as to whether kids can enjoy it...I stated my case that with the ever growing population of high end products and the hits being so far and few in between(at least the ones that are considered popular) that a kid has a hard time feeling truly connected to this hobby whereas a kid back in the day had the chance to own the same cards a grown man did and money was not as much of a divider of collectors.Basically back in the day anybody could build a nice collection.Now...no.Its not like that.And like I said...kids like to do whats "in" and whats "cool".Do you consider baseball cards the "in" or "cool" thing to do for kids?Because if you do...you really must not be around many of them.Its just not the thing to do anymore.Its not.Not for kids.Trust me on that.It doesn't mean some kids don't collect and it also doesn't mean they don't enjoy it.But the factor of them pulling popular or important cards is so much harder now than it was.That can make it very unfun for a lot of kids.And kids don't like something that is not fun.

Between me and the wife we have enough friends to total about 50 or so kids amongst them.Not one of them collects cards of sports or athletes.Not one.And that is counting the ones who actually like sports and their fathers who are into sports and also collect.They just aren't into it.None of them are.[/quote:3ijekblz]

Good post. Thank you for stating facts as arguments and not simply making blanket statements and slinging insults. I will definitely agree with you on the "money is a dividing factor" aspect. Although kids do have options for collecting, ala retail outlets, card shops and eBay (teenagers anyway). Kids that DO collect enjoy it, though... that can not be argued. I guess instead of saying kids now have it better than when I was kid, I should have said they COULD have it better if they wanted to collect... and many still do.

 

[sportscardtheory]

Why he feels this way? Haven't you been reading, according to him he has already stated it in his previous posts. Evidently you, me, and the rest of the board must have missed it.

Okay, you get $20 to spend on any cards you want on cards that were made from 1989 and back. I will take $20 and spend it on whatever I want and let's see who makes out with better cards. Deal, smart guy?

 

[predatorkj]

[quote="predatorkj":2y7qm9qk][quote="sportscardtheory":2y7qm9qk][quote="predatorkj":2y7qm9qk]


Come on guys.


I am sure he has his own theories but I am sure, if he would just respond to what has been written, we can all at least agree its harder for a kid to feel like they belong in this hobby.And when that happens they go looking for something else.Not all kids.But most of them.

It's hard to respond to what was written when I have to waste time defending myself from childish insults from certain members who feel the need to raise hell when they disagree with me.

Look...none of us get anything out of arguing with you.But a lot of your opinions go against the grain.Now you have two choices.Either state a well presented reason why you believe what you do or you can expect people to not agree with you and this will happen on and outside of the board as well.I think you may have reasons to believe what you do but tell us.Explain them.

I already have, many times. I'm not typing it all again, it's in this thread for all to see. I already told you that I agree kids are not as into the hobby as when I was a kid. But when a grown man tries to tell me the kids that ARE into the hobby don't enjoy it as much as he did when he was young, it's absolutely ludicrous. You can't tell me what other human beings feel, I think that's pretty obvious. Talk to any kid that collects cards and ask them if they enjoy it... of course they do, why would they be doing it if they didn't. I don't need grown men on a message board trying to tell me what goes on inside the heads of children... it's just stupid.

Okay point noted but don't you think your getting a little too technical there?I mean of course nobody knows how to read minds but we have made some pretty valid points as to why a child would not have as much fun collecting these days as they did back in the 80's and 90's.I made, what I thought , was a good stated point.You skip over it?

I'm a very literal person, if you don't know that by now after numerous discussions, I don't know what to tell you. It's just how I am. I will admit when I am proven wrong, but no one here is giving any hard evidence other than they don't see many kids in card shops. You aren't in the card shop 24/7. I saw NUMEROUS kids at the National. Talk to any kid who collects and they will tell you they love it. Enough said. It's not some epidemic of kids not collecting is all I'm saying.[/quote:2y7qm9qk]


No...I am not.But my shop owner is.I have asked.Not related to anything on this board but out of my own curiosity.He estimates for every 50 people he sees he may see one kid come in(with a parent of course).Just about every person who come sin is 20+ years or older.The owner of the shop I frequent is a Beckett consultant so I would like to believe he is a reputable and important dealer in the Houston area.

Now as to whether kids can enjoy it...I stated my case that with the ever growing population of high end products and the hits being so far and few in between(at least the ones that are considered popular) that a kid has a hard time feeling truly connected to this hobby whereas a kid back in the day had the chance to own the same cards a grown man did and money was not as much of a divider of collectors.Basically back in the day anybody could build a nice collection.Now...no.Its not like that.And like I said...kids like to do whats "in" and whats "cool".Do you consider baseball cards the "in" or "cool" thing to do for kids?Because if you do...you really must not be around many of them.Its just not the thing to do anymore.Its not.Not for kids.Trust me on that.It doesn't mean some kids don't collect and it also doesn't mean they don't enjoy it.But the factor of them pulling popular or important cards is so much harder now than it was.That can make it very unfun for a lot of kids.And kids don't like something that is not fun.

Between me and the wife we have enough friends to total about 50 or so kids amongst them.Not one of them collects cards of sports or athletes.Not one.And that is counting the ones who actually like sports and their fathers who are into sports and also collect.They just aren't into it.None of them are.[/quote:2y7qm9qk]

Good post. Thank you for stating facts as arguments and not simply making blanket statements and slinging insults. I will definitely agree with you on the "money is a dividing factor" aspect. Although kids do have options for collecting, ala retail outlets, card shops and eBay (teenagers anyway). Kids that DO collect enjoy it, though... that can not be argued. I guess instead of saying kids now have it better than when I was kid, I should have said they COULD have it better if they wanted to collect... and many still do.[/quote:2y7qm9qk]


Well I can agree with that I suppose.I mean its far easier now to get inserts and whatnot.I just feel its a little harder these days for any of us to feel like we have really coveted cards let alone if we were kids with limited money to spend.To us...it doesn't matter.To kids it most likely does.That is what I was getting at.I also mentioned it several pages back as well which is why I asked if you had even seen it.

See...now whats the big deal with explaining your view point?It is not so far off from what I believe.

 

[predatorkj]

Why he feels this way? Haven't you been reading, according to him he has already stated it in his previous posts. Evidently you, me, and the rest of the board must have missed it.

Okay, you get $20 to spend on any cards you want on cards that were made from 1989 and back. I will take $20 and spend it on whatever I want and let's see who makes out with better cards. Deal, smart guy?

That's not fair because if you did that you would have to go back in time.Things like autos and GU were not available then.But the newest hottest card was.And everyone could have one.You can't do that anymore.Not even people with unlimited funds.The hobby is too niche oriented now.

 

[sportscardtheory]

Well I can agree with that I suppose.I mean its far easier now to get inserts and whatnot.I just feel its a little harder these days for any of us to feel like we have really coveted cards let alone if we were kids with limited money to spend.To us...it doesn't matter.To kids it most likely does.That is what I was getting at.I also mentioned it several pages back as well which is why I asked if you had even seen it.

See...now whats the big deal with explaining your view point?It is not so far off from what I believe.

Ever see a kid pull an auto or a game-used card out of a pack of Topps? You really think it's not the same feeling for them as when you pulled a 1989 Ken Griffey Jr. rookie card in 1989?

 

[teachervido]

That's not fair because if you did that you would have to go back in time.Things like autos and GU were not available then.But the newest hottest card was.And everyone could have one.You can't do that anymore.Not even people with unlimited funds.The hobby is too niche oriented now.

Winner, winner - chicken dinner!

 

[predatorkj]

Well I can agree with that I suppose.I mean its far easier now to get inserts and whatnot.I just feel its a little harder these days for any of us to feel like we have really coveted cards let alone if we were kids with limited money to spend.To us...it doesn't matter.To kids it most likely does.That is what I was getting at.I also mentioned it several pages back as well which is why I asked if you had even seen it.

See...now whats the big deal with explaining your view point?It is not so far off from what I believe.

Ever see a kid pull an auto or a game-used card out of a pack of Topps? You really think it's not the same feeling for them as when you pulled a 1989 Ken Griffey Jr. rookie card in 1989?

Honestly I can't ever say I have seen a kid open a pack of cards let alone pull one of those kinds of cards.So I can't answer that.I would imagine if its a player they like then yeah it would be great for them.

 

[yakacack]

Well I can agree with that I suppose.I mean its far easier now to get inserts and whatnot.I just feel its a little harder these days for any of us to feel like we have really coveted cards let alone if we were kids with limited money to spend.To us...it doesn't matter.To kids it most likely does.That is what I was getting at.I also mentioned it several pages back as well which is why I asked if you had even seen it.

See...now whats the big deal with explaining your view point?It is not so far off from what I believe.

Ever see a kid pull an auto or a game-used card out of a pack of Topps? You really think it's not the same feeling for them as when you pulled a 1989 Ken Griffey Jr. rookie card in 1989?

Difference being that the kid pulling the 89 Griffey didnt skip past the other cards in the pack because he felt the jersey card in his hands. The kid with the 89 typically took time to look through each card and I wont speak for others, but I had the card backs often memorized then. Look at how many strange printing gaffes and other various errors were found because of those kids looking through each card.

The kid nowadays gets the jersey card and discards everything else in the pack. I've seen kids open packs at stores, pull a jersey and leave the rest behind. I dont consider that the same "fun" or "enjoyment" that you seem to and thats what I guess others here and I arent seeing and what you havent presented other than you are championing their cause somehow and we are here to destroy it?

The $20 argument doesnt make much sense to me either. For that $20 you could by 7-10 packs in 89 and have a much better chance at the now iconic card that was mass produced as opposed to 3-4 packs (hope they havent been searched!) with odds on that super scarce card being astronomical in comparison.

I honestly am not understanding the $20 argument as stated on page 6 or so and it still hasnt been better explained to me or anyone else it seems...

 

[allstars]

[Honestly I can't ever say I have seen a kid open a pack of cards let alone pull one of those kinds of cards.So I can't answer that.I would imagine if its a player they like then yeah it would be great for them.

That's the beauty of it. I watch alot of kids open packs. If they get ANY auto or jersey they are happy.

Good to be a kid.

 

[predatorkj]

Well I can agree with that I suppose.I mean its far easier now to get inserts and whatnot.I just feel its a little harder these days for any of us to feel like we have really coveted cards let alone if we were kids with limited money to spend.To us...it doesn't matter.To kids it most likely does.That is what I was getting at.I also mentioned it several pages back as well which is why I asked if you had even seen it.

See...now whats the big deal with explaining your view point?It is not so far off from what I believe.

Ever see a kid pull an auto or a game-used card out of a pack of Topps? You really think it's not the same feeling for them as when you pulled a 1989 Ken Griffey Jr. rookie card in 1989?

Difference being that the kid pulling the 89 Griffey didnt skip past the other cards in the pack because he felt the jersey card in his hands. The kid with the 89 typically took time to look through each card and I wont speak for others, but I had the card backs often memorized then. Look at how many strange printing gaffes and other various errors were found because of those kids looking through each card.

The kid nowadays gets the jersey card and discards everything else in the pack. I've seen kids open packs at stores, pull a jersey and leave the rest behind. I dont consider that the same "fun" or "enjoyment" that you seem to and thats what I guess others here and I arent seeing and what you havent presented other than you are championing their cause somehow and we are here to destroy it?

The $20 argument doesnt make much sense to me either. For that $20 you could by 7-10 packs in 89 and have a much better chance at the now iconic card that was mass produced as opposed to 3-4 packs (hope they havent been searched!) with odds on that super scarce card being astronomical in comparison.

I honestly am not understanding the $20 argument as stated on page 6 or so and it still hasnt been better explained to me or anyone else it seems...

Well at least you have seen something I never have and that is a kid opening packs.

 

[crosby87]

Well I am still sort of a kid and when I was younger a lot of my friends were slightly into it. I think I am the only one who still even cares about sports cards. They just are not popular with kids anymore...I like opening packs, but it is very hard since a decent pack of cards is at least 3 dollars and the nicer hobby ones are 5-8 a piece. Kids can't afford them anymore...However I do think we have a much more exciting type of cards then those days, and I used to and still do love pulling a jersey card or autograph card.

 

[MattinglyAlexander]

[Honestly I can't ever say I have seen a kid open a pack of cards let alone pull one of those kinds of cards.So I can't answer that.I would imagine if its a player they like then yeah it would be great for them.

That's the beauty of it. I watch alot of kids open packs. If they get ANY auto or jersey they are happy.

Good to be a kid.

Yeah, but for the most part, they're thinking, "I'm gonna be rich! I need to youtube this and get it on eBay right away!"" instead of, "Oh COOL! I got a so and so card. He's awesome!"

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Well I can agree with that I suppose.I mean its far easier now to get inserts and whatnot.I just feel its a little harder these days for any of us to feel like we have really coveted cards let alone if we were kids with limited money to spend.To us...it doesn't matter.To kids it most likely does.That is what I was getting at.I also mentioned it several pages back as well which is why I asked if you had even seen it.

See...now whats the big deal with explaining your view point?It is not so far off from what I believe.

Ever see a kid pull an auto or a game-used card out of a pack of Topps? You really think it's not the same feeling for them as when you pulled a 1989 Ken Griffey Jr. rookie card in 1989?

Difference being that the kid pulling the 89 Griffey didnt skip past the other cards in the pack because he felt the jersey card in his hands. The kid with the 89 typically took time to look through each card and I wont speak for others, but I had the card backs often memorized then. Look at how many strange printing gaffes and other various errors were found because of those kids looking through each card.

The kid nowadays gets the jersey card and discards everything else in the pack. I've seen kids open packs at stores, pull a jersey and leave the rest behind. I dont consider that the same "fun" or "enjoyment" that you seem to and thats what I guess others here and I arent seeing and what you havent presented other than you are championing their cause somehow and we are here to destroy it?

The $20 argument doesnt make much sense to me either. For that $20 you could by 7-10 packs in 89 and have a much better chance at the now iconic card that was mass produced as opposed to 3-4 packs (hope they havent been searched!) with odds on that super scarce card being astronomical in comparison.

I honestly am not understanding the $20 argument as stated on page 6 or so and it still hasnt been better explained to me or anyone else it seems...

Well at least you have seen something I never have and that is a kid opening packs.

Come to my house.

 

[predatorkj]

Well I can agree with that I suppose.I mean its far easier now to get inserts and whatnot.I just feel its a little harder these days for any of us to feel like we have really coveted cards let alone if we were kids with limited money to spend.To us...it doesn't matter.To kids it most likely does.That is what I was getting at.I also mentioned it several pages back as well which is why I asked if you had even seen it.

See...now whats the big deal with explaining your view point?It is not so far off from what I believe.

Ever see a kid pull an auto or a game-used card out of a pack of Topps? You really think it's not the same feeling for them as when you pulled a 1989 Ken Griffey Jr. rookie card in 1989?

Difference being that the kid pulling the 89 Griffey didnt skip past the other cards in the pack because he felt the jersey card in his hands. The kid with the 89 typically took time to look through each card and I wont speak for others, but I had the card backs often memorized then. Look at how many strange printing gaffes and other various errors were found because of those kids looking through each card.

The kid nowadays gets the jersey card and discards everything else in the pack. I've seen kids open packs at stores, pull a jersey and leave the rest behind. I dont consider that the same "fun" or "enjoyment" that you seem to and thats what I guess others here and I arent seeing and what you havent presented other than you are championing their cause somehow and we are here to destroy it?

The $20 argument doesnt make much sense to me either. For that $20 you could by 7-10 packs in 89 and have a much better chance at the now iconic card that was mass produced as opposed to 3-4 packs (hope they havent been searched!) with odds on that super scarce card being astronomical in comparison.

I honestly am not understanding the $20 argument as stated on page 6 or so and it still hasnt been better explained to me or anyone else it seems...

Well at least you have seen something I never have and that is a kid opening packs.

Come to my house.

Because your kids like to open packs does not necessarily support the point.You collect therefore your kids do.I know plenty of people who collect and their kids won't touch the cards.But they would be more prone to do so if a parent or someone they look up to sets the example.

 

[Sweetness]

Dave and Adam's cardworld is always packed. At any given time there are more kids than adults in the store. I'd say the hobby is very poplular with kids.

 

[matfanofold]

I apologize as I did not read the whole article or thread but how is 2001 Bowman Chrome Albert Pujols not Iconic?

Perhaps this has already been answered for you, but I'll take a stab anyway.

I believe it's widely accepted that "Iconic" is refering to something that represents a specific generation of people as a whole, transcending it's origonal meaning/inception and becoming something other, something well known to the general public that stands for something.

In the case of the 52' Mantle, 84' D Mattingly, 89' UD Griffey, ect.. these cards were not only coveted by thoes within the hobby, but well known by most out of the hobby, and brought people in to the hobby by the masses to obtain a piece of it. They evoke a feeling of nostalgia, even today to thoes who look upon the iconic images.

Now, in all honesty, do you really think anyone outside of the hobby knows what a Bowman Chrome Refractor Albert Pujols /500 Auto card is? Ok, so there may inded be a few, but to a level of "iconic"? I for one do not think so...

The 52' Mantle is know by little old ladies. Ask 100 random people off the street and I would imagine 99 of them would know what the card is. Thats Iconic. The 84' Donruss Mattingly single handedly saved our hobby. Anyone that was inbetween 10 and 50 durring the 80's would know the card. Thats Iconic. The 89' UD Griffey set the standard for modern sports cards and, like the Mattingly before him, reinvigorated the hobby and claimed household status of the holy grail of modern sports collectables. Thats Iconic.

The Pujols Chrome RC Auto, although awesome and highly desired by thoes within the hobby, simply is not there. Perhaps in time, but not now. And frankly speaking, I'm not so sure ANY modern, low numbered, high priced card could ever claim such levels of recognition, simply due to the lack of availability and uncertin hobby trends today.

 

[uniquebaseballcards]

They're probably enjoying all the Yugioh and gaming cards there.
http://www.dacardworld.com/gaming/yu-gi-oh

Dave and Adam's cardworld is always packed. At any given time there are more kids than adults in the store. I'd say the hobby is very poplular with kids.

 

[MattinglyAlexander]

 

[i43770]

Based on quite a few of the definitions I have seen on here, the 2007 Topps Jeter/Mantle/Bush card would be iconic. It is recognizable by more than just card people, it is relatively affordable for anyone to own, and it was in a low end base product.

 

[beefycheddar]

I just doubt Pujols will ever be an iconic card. The best comparison I can make to Albert is to WWE Superstars. The Mantle, Griffey, and Wagners are like Hogan, The Rock, and Stone Cold of Sports Cards. Albert at the very best would be Shawn Michaels, very talented, but never can be the one to carry the company to mainstream popularity.