Say it ain't so...Mark Grace

[sportscardtheory]

If only people would get so up-in-arms about crimes that actually have victims.

I think the more reasonable sentiment, is "If only people would get as up-in-arms about drunk driving as they do about Barry Bonds, patch faking, and LeBron James". Seriously, if I wrote a post that said "Bonds is not that bad a guy", I'd get 45 pages of indignantly furious responses. Here, where an actual crime and actual potential harm/death is involved, I get nothing but apologists.

I understand the argument you make with regard to victims, but I simply can't agree with it. A single act of drunk driving may not have a victim, but drunk driving as a practice has many victims. The fact that an instance of drunk driving ends up with harm is NOT what makes it a bad act.

This has nothing to do with logic, but part of my reaction has to do with just trying not to be hypocrite. I know that if a drunk Mark Grace tore around a corner and barely missed running over my son, my reaction would never be "No harm, no foul". Maybe some people, faced with that situation, are perfectly capable of writing it off as a 'victimless crime'. But I'm not one of those people.

Is there room for rehabilitation and forgiveness? Sure. But at this moment in time, Mark Grace is just a a plain assclown in my eyes.

Well, on a sportscard message board, of course people are here to talk about sportscards and players. I'm not arguing with you about your opinion or anything. It's fine to think think the way you do. I am just saying that I see it a bit differently is all. Mark Grace didn't set-out to hurt anyone and he didn't hurt anyone. He broke the law and he will suffer the consequences. It doesn't make him a bad guy. It makes him an idiot.

 

[maxpower]

The law looks at a DUI with nobody harmed and somebody harmed differently, so why shouldn't we as people?

I think most of us can agree that there's a difference between legality and morality. The law doesn't appear to think that the execs at Lehman Brothers did anything illegal, but does that mean they didn't do anything wrong?

I understand what you're saying about the differences in crime. I'm not saying that the courts should ignore the law... but the relevant analysis to me as far as deciding whether Mark Grace is an entitled POS isn't whether he hurt someone, but whether he decided to put himself in a situation where he could have hurt someone.

Look, I get that people make mistakes. I get that Mark Grace has a lot of fans on the board. I get that some posters here might have gotten DUIs themselves. I'm not saying that one act defines you forever or that people have to be perfect. But am I really that out of line in thinking that at the moment someone decides to get behind the wheel of a car drunk, that that person is being a selfish ******? Not for their whole life, but at that moment?

 

[maxpower]

If only people would get so up-in-arms about crimes that actually have victims.

I think the more reasonable sentiment, is "If only people would get as up-in-arms about drunk driving as they do about Barry Bonds, patch faking, and LeBron James". Seriously, if I wrote a post that said "Bonds is not that bad a guy", I'd get 45 pages of indignantly furious responses. Here, where an actual crime and actual potential harm/death is involved, I get nothing but apologists.

I understand the argument you make with regard to victims, but I simply can't agree with it. A single act of drunk driving may not have a victim, but drunk driving as a practice has many victims. The fact that an instance of drunk driving ends up with harm is NOT what makes it a bad act.

This has nothing to do with logic, but part of my reaction has to do with just trying not to be hypocrite. I know that if a drunk Mark Grace tore around a corner and barely missed running over my son, my reaction would never be "No harm, no foul". Maybe some people, faced with that situation, are perfectly capable of writing it off as a 'victimless crime'. But I'm not one of those people.

Is there room for rehabilitation and forgiveness? Sure. But at this moment in time, Mark Grace is just a a plain assclown in my eyes.

Well, on a sportscard message board, of course people are here to talk about sportscards and players. I'm not arguing with you about your opinion or anything. It's fine to think think the way you do. I am just saying that I see it a bit differently is all. Mark Grace didn't set-out to hurt anyone and he didn't hurt anyone. He broke the law and he will suffer the consequences. It doesn't make him a bad guy. It makes him an idiot.

True, but if I suspect that if I posted "Nancy Pelosi - I love her ideas!", I'd probably get a fairly robust response even here at FCB.

We just see things differently. Nothing inherently wrong or irrational about your beliefs. I agree that Grace didn't set out to hurt someone, but where we differ is that I think he can be a bad guy without having actually gotten into an accident. As far as what he's legally liable for, you're right that he's only guilty of drunk driving ... to me, just being guilty of that is enough to make him a 'bad guy' (at least at the moment he made the selfish decision).

 

[Gwynn545]

Bad decision. No one was hurt. Big deal.

If only people would get so up-in-arms about crimes that actually have victims.

You obviously have never lost a loved one because of a drunk driver. Congratulations! Why don't you rub it in on the rest of us some more! ::facepalm:: You are so lucky! Hopefully you will never have to feel the way I do about drunk drivers...

This is a straw man. You are insinuating that I have no sympathy for anyone who has lost loved ones or friends to a drunk driver because I believe that people make mistakes and get behind the wheel, and it's f-ing ridiculous. Intent is a big deal to me, and no one sets out to hurt others by hitting them with their car. So forgive me if I don't think it's right to compare manslaughter to driving under the influence. I'm a realist and I try not to form opinions based on my emotions.[spamuser:3clpnhxx][/spamuser:3clpnhxx]

Look, maybe you are just using the wrong words, but are you saying you have sympathy? I think that if you did, you would not have used the phrase "No one was hurt. Big deal." Drunk driving is a huge deal, and if you had an ounce of sympathy, you would have kept your narrow minded opinion to yourself. If you would have, then you would have showed some sympathy!

 

[nosterbor]

This board will give him a pass because he's white.

YOU SUCK!@

 

[sportscardtheory]

This topic hits some people closer to home, so I need to just slow it down a bit.

 

[Gwynn545]

Bad decision. No one was hurt. Big deal.

If only people would get so up-in-arms about crimes that actually have victims.

You obviously have never lost a loved one because of a drunk driver. Congratulations! Why don't you rub it in on the rest of us some more! ::facepalm:: You are so lucky! Hopefully you will never have to feel the way I do about drunk drivers...

This is a straw man. You are insinuating that I have no sympathy for anyone who has lost loved ones or friends to a drunk driver because I believe that people make mistakes and get behind the wheel, and it's f-ing ridiculous. Intent is a big deal to me, and no one sets out to hurt others by hitting them with their car. So forgive me if I don't think it's right to compare manslaughter to driving under the influence. I'm a realist and I try not to form opinions based on my emotions.[spamuser:1uh42xvp][/spamuser:1uh42xvp]

Look, maybe you are just using the wrong words, but are you saying you have sympathy? I think that if you did, you would not have used the phrase "No one was hurt. Big deal." Drunk driving is a huge deal, and if you had an ounce of sympathy, you would have kept your narrow minded opinion to yourself. If you would have, then you would have showed some sympathy!

SYMPATHY FOR WHO??? Who the F are you expecting sympathy from me for??? I made that statement about MARK FREAKING GRACE. Did Mark Grace kill your friend or whomever you are talking about??? Jesus. Keep trying to paint me as some callous monster, *******. I have all the sympathy in the world for ANYONE who has dealt with the loss of someone due to drunk driving. End of story. Stop talking and thinking with emotions and listen to what I'm saying before attacking me and trying to make me look bad. You're being so freaking ridiculous.

I am not trying to paint you as a monster. I am definitely too emotional about this topic, so maybe I am way off base. I thought the "no big deal" just sounded too nonchalant, and got all worked up...sorry. Now back to sports...

Mark Grace is an idiot.

 

[sportscardtheory]

I am not trying to paint you as a monster. I am definitely too emotional about this topic, so maybe I am way off base. I thought the "no big deal" just sounded too nonchalant, and got all worked up...sorry. Now back to sports...

Mark Grace is an idiot.

My friend, I am very sorry for your loss. I am not trying to be callous and I apologize if it came off that way. I was commenting only on Mark Grace who didn't hurt anyone, thank god. And yes, he's a complete idiot.

 

[Anthony K.]

The law looks at a DUI with nobody harmed and somebody harmed differently, so why shouldn't we as people?

I think most of us can agree that there's a difference between legality and morality. The law doesn't appear to think that the execs at Lehman Brothers did anything illegal, but does that mean they didn't do anything wrong?

I understand what you're saying about the differences in crime. I'm not saying that the courts should ignore the law... but the relevant analysis to me as far as deciding whether Mark Grace is an entitled POS isn't whether he hurt someone, but whether he decided to put himself in a situation where he could have hurt someone.

Look, I get that people make mistakes. I get that Mark Grace has a lot of fans on the board. I get that some posters here might have gotten DUIs themselves. I'm not saying that one act defines you forever or that people have to be perfect. But am I really that out of line in thinking that at the moment someone decides to get behind the wheel of a car drunk, that that person is being a selfish ******? Not for their whole life, but at that moment?

I don't think you are out of line whatsoever.

I am on both sides of the coin when it comes to drunk driving. I know people who have lost someone to a drunk driver, I knew a girl in HS who was killed by a drunk driver and I too have been a drunk driver (too many times when I was a young, invisible, reckless college student).

I think it is absolutely stupid to drive drunk and, regardless if another car/person is involved, should be regarded as the worst thing you can do while driving (I know there are many other things that can be just as bad as driving drunk, but when you drive drunk, you are making a conscious decision to do this; getting in a car and then texting or adjusting the radio station, isn't something you decide BEFORE you get in the car).

Mark Grace is a good person who made a stupid decision and I am just glad that no one was hurt while he was driving drunk.

 

[BunchOBull]

My personal approach to drunk driving is to throw the book as hard as possible. Having walked away from a major accident after being nearly hit head on by a drunk (I whipped the wheel in time to get T-boned instead), and having lost friends to drunk drivers, I resent the blasé nature with which drunk drivers are handled.

In my case, not only was he extremely intoxicated and driving on the wrong side of the road, but he was in a new sports car with a fake insurance policy. I had just graduated from college and I had to pay my deductible, my car was totaled, and I was sans a vehicle. I had to move in with my parents for 6 months just to save enough money to get on my feet again; I had no way to get to work, which was an hour away, so I had to leave my life to move home 500 miles away.

A year and a half later, when he finally went to court, I was living in Houston and couldn't travel back for the hearing. The prosecutor got me nothing--no one cared--and he walked away clean as a whistle. This guy blew a .295 nearly an hour and a half after the wreck...he was trashed.

 

[jumbojohnny]

This board will give him a pass because he's white.

Just an idiot thing to say. Some people should be smacked in the mouth for the crap they spit out.

You are now one of those people.

 

[ChasHawk]

Not excusing Grace's action, but .295 is blackout ******* hammered. That's a HUGE difference from .09 or .10

Does anyone have Grace's test results?

Was he .09 or .12 or .18 ??

If the guy in the car next to him was .07, is that ok? It's legal.

.08-.10 is two to three drinks for most people, so if you've ever had a couple glasses of wine with dinner, you're a POS

 

[gracecollector]

Just heard about this on the radio this morning (was out last night). Haven't got any details yet, but I do say I'm disappointed. I can tell you that Grace has two good friends he usually has with him when he is hitting the bars, and one of those friends is the designated driver. Guess he could have really used him last night. Poor decision, but I'm sure he'll face the consequences of his actions and accept his punishment. Grace has always enjoyed the nightlife. And he's usually taken steps to prevent this situation from happening. But sooner or later a drinker is going to put himself in a situation like this. A DUI is not excusable behavior though. I hope he takes steps to evaluate his behavior, at least for the sake of his two young sons.

This is the first real controversy for my guy. Cussing on live TV and defining Slumpbusters is nothing compared to a DUI. I'm thankful no one was hurt. I'm glad he didn't give the police any resistance. Grace is not a POS. He is very polite and has always had good manners and a moral code. He grew up with a military father and a loving mother that he's credited with instilling in him a moral compass, and he really cares about their opinion of him to this day. He's no saint, but he's far from a POS. I'll continue to respect the guy as long as he handles this situation with aplomb and honesty.

 

[RL24]

Not excusing Grace's action, but .295 is blackout ******* hammered. That's a HUGE difference from .09 or .10

Does anyone have Grace's test results?

Was he .09 or .12 or .18 ??

If the guy in the car next to him was .07, is that ok? It's legal.

.08-.10 is two to three drinks for most people, so if you've ever had a couple glasses of wine with dinner, you're a POS

I thanked your post for saving me some typing. People are really jumping to a ton of conclusions. He may have blown a .295 and if so he's a POS for endangering people, sure. But we don't know if he was even drunk. You can have a pretty small buzz and get a DUI. The article said he was booked for "DUI impaired to the slightest degree" which doesn't sound very drunk to me.

Your favorite baseball player, athlete, teacher, preacher, mother... any of these people could have driven home last night after a couple glasses of wine. They didn't get caught, so you didn't hear about it... but I think from reading this thread, many of you should just go ahead and assume 90% of the people you meet are POS's. Especially in light of the fact that you can get a DUI for driving on certain prescription medications.

I am on both sides of the coin when it comes to drunk driving. I know people who have lost someone to a drunk driver, I knew a girl in HS who was killed by a drunk driver and I too have been a drunk driver (too many times when I was a young, invisible, reckless college student).

See, Anthony never got caught. Well, he was invisible, so he was tough to catch, but...

 

[gracecollector]

Mugshot, courtesy of Scottsdale Police Dept.

Blood-Alcohol % not released. In police report, Grace admitted to "having a few drinks."

Least he was drinking good stuff (better than his usual Coors Light)...

"As for what Grace was drinking that night, he told officers that he'd had a couple glasses of Macallan scotch, including one that he said he finished five minutes before he was stopped. Some bottles of Macallan sell for as much as $18,000. Good stuff if you can afford it (and nobody can)."

 

[RL24]

Just think, for $18,000 you can do 2 things...

Option 1: buy 3 Coors Lights, drive home, get a DUI


Option 2: buy a bottle of Macallan, stay home, enjoy.



He went with Option 3, the expensive route... the Macallan AND the DUI. :benson:

 

[SamHell]

many of you should just go ahead and assume 90% of the people you meet are POS's.

I do that anyway and unfortunately my assumption is generally correct.
I've had to work a 15 year old girl who was plowed over by a drunk driver while she was walking home on the sidewalk. Not much fun to hear the screams of the mother when she knows her daughter is dead. The driver was mostly concerned about not being able to find his cell phone.

DRUNK DRIVERS ARE POS.

 

[ChasHawk]

I would really like for someone to define drunk for me.

person A who is 180lbs drinks 2 beers and blows .07

person B who is 150lbs drinks 2 beers and blows .08

So...person A is within the limits of the law and person B is a POS?

How about we just have zero tolerance for the entire country?

75% of the restaurants and bars in the country would close their doors.

I'm sorry for anyone's loss because of a drunk driver, but you're not going to convince me that someone who has 3 beers with their wings at BWW is "drunk"

 

[braden]

I would really like for someone to define drunk for me.

person A who is 180lbs drinks 2 beers and blows .07

person B who is 150lbs drinks 2 beers and blows .08

So...person A is within the limits of the law and person B is a POS?

How about we just have zero tolerance for the entire country?

75% of the restaurants and bars in the country would close their doors.

I'm sorry for anyone's loss because of a drunk driver, but you're not going to convince me that someone who has 3 beers with their wings at BWW is "drunk"

So what's the alternative? How do you propose it be policed?

 

[notjomommasclint]

most drunk drivers are normal people with families and responsibilities and they make the horrific decision to drive because they are impaired. which is why they get the ticket!