So why does Topps only try....

[bmc398]

I'm going to disagree with the notion that I'm using a 5 year old argument for this situation and continue it.

It comes down to successful business owners and unsuccessful business owners. When in the same field, that success is dictated often by two single categories - market and acumen.

As for two owners backing up your point (still not clear what the blanket term of "innovation" is going for), that's meaningless. Shared opinions don't simply turn them into facts. Then again, it's Atlanta…which is an absolute cesspool of a sports city. Sad, but very true.

And how are you defining "REALLY GOOD"? The impressions of the FCB shop from "the proprietor of this site" is that Magic keeps the doors open, so is this one of the "REALLY GOOD" ones? Or is it one of the "okay" ones?

We're in an era where a card shop that exists as a "card shop" in the traditional sense…it will fail. It has to because this hobby alone is simply not a sustainable market. The hobby is shrinking, and brick and mortar card shops are feeling the brunt of it. Think of our biggest rippers/collectors here…what percentage of their collection was created by walking into a card shop? 5-10% at the most?

You then bring up a mythical seller selling 15+ cases of Allen and Ginter in the early years and only 5 cases now…and what, that's an innovation problem? Come on now. When A&G came out, the retro redux market was hot…it's cooled tremendously. Even Heritage. And keep in mind…after three really successful releases of A&G, Topps added the whole "Code Breaker" chase…isn't that "innovation"?

Regardless of my rambling…any perceived lack of innovation is not hurting the card shop. Innovation and competition do nothing to a shrinking market other than spread the money thinner. It's a farce. I mean seriously, what "innovation" was driving people in 2004? 2005? Anything new at all?

And wait…what happened to all of the examples of this loaded innovation that Topps uses only for their prospect products? Wasn't that the topic at hand?

Oh and for the record…I know three store owners fairly well…two are extremely successful financially and the third sells Magic. (Not a slam on FCB…but ATL.)

Examples of added value and innovation....how many of these have been done before in a Bowman prospect release?
2013 Bowman Pedro Alvarez White Ice Refractor True 1 1 Parallel Cracked Pirates | eBay

2013 Bowman Auto Black Ice SP Taylor Guerrieri 5 5 Autograph | eBay

2013 Carlos Correa Byron Buxton Bowman Dual Auto SSP Only 25 8 25 Chrome | eBay

2013 Bowman Baseball Yasiel Puig Mini Refractor RC Chrome Rookie Prospect Card | eBay

2013 Bowman Chrome Refractor Social Media Autograph Taijuan Walker 09 10 RARE | eBay

2011 Bowman Chrome Bryce Harper Blue Sapphire Refractor RC Auto Reprint 'D 1 5 | eBay

Archie Bradley 2013 Bowman Bowman's Top 100 Prospects Die Cut x Fractor Auto 24 | eBay

Its small touches like this where you go ok.....they are trying. Trying to do new things. Trying to add value for collectors. Trying to put cool new things in a product that make people want to go out and bust it.

Your above argument about 2005-06 being a hot time for retro products is just my point....it was hot 8 years ago....so why keep putting it out now? It isn't hot anymore, has been done multiple times, does not sell as well as previous editions...but you keep doing it because its easy. The formula and templates are already out there for it. 70% of the hit content are 1cm X 1cm GU pieces that you are dying to get rid of. Thats why they do it. Not because its hot or in demand. They also do it because they can make you buy 20 cases of Ginter to get 1 case of a good product. Thats an obvious over-exaggeration but those requirements are out there from most manufacturers and are enforced all the way down to LCS'.


And also a simple question....if Magic keeps the doors open (lets assume with roughly the same customer base for each side of the store) then why doesn't baseball? To me, it would come down to nobody wanting to bust sports cards....right? And why wouldnt they want to do that?

 

[200lbhockeyplayer]

Examples of added value and innovation....how many of these have been done before in a Bowman prospect release?
2013 Bowman Pedro Alvarez White Ice Refractor True 1 1 Parallel Cracked Pirates | eBay

2013 Bowman Auto Black Ice SP Taylor Guerrieri 5 5 Autograph | eBay

2013 Carlos Correa Byron Buxton Bowman Dual Auto SSP Only 25 8 25 Chrome | eBay

2013 Bowman Baseball Yasiel Puig Mini Refractor RC Chrome Rookie Prospect Card | eBay

2013 Bowman Chrome Refractor Social Media Autograph Taijuan Walker 09 10 RARE | eBay

2011 Bowman Chrome Bryce Harper Blue Sapphire Refractor RC Auto Reprint 'D 1 5 | eBay

Archie Bradley 2013 Bowman Bowman's Top 100 Prospects Die Cut x Fractor Auto 24 | eBay

Its small touches like this where you go ok.....they are trying. Trying to do new things. Trying to add value for collectors. Trying to put cool new things in a product that make people want to go out and bust it.

Your above argument about 2005-06 being a hot time for retro products is just my point....it was hot 8 years ago....so why keep putting it out now? It isn't hot anymore, has been done multiple times, does not sell as well as previous editions...but you keep doing it because its easy. The formula and templates are already out there for it. 70% of the hit content are 1cm X 1cm GU pieces that you are dying to get rid of. Thats why they do it. Not because its hot or in demand. They also do it because they can make you buy 20 cases of Ginter to get 1 case of a good product. Thats an obvious over-exaggeration but those requirements are out there from most manufacturers and are enforced all the way down to LCS'.


And also a simple question....if Magic keeps the doors open (lets assume with roughly the same customer base for each side of the store) then why doesn't baseball? To me, it would come down to nobody wanting to bust sports cards....right? And why wouldnt they want to do that?

Seriously? I thought you were implying that Topps only "pushes the envelope" with prospect related products...not simply repeat past "innovations" just in a prospect format.

White Ice Refractor? Not new, simply a continuation of the "Ice"/"Wave" theme previously released.
Black Ice Autograph? Like last year's "Wave" redemption autographs, just now in packs.
Mini Chrome rookies? Well, minis aren't new, chrome isn't new...but mini Chrome cards are. Yeah innovation!
"Social Media" autograph? Most people used to call them "inscriptions" but a new name means more innovation!
Rookie Reprint Refractors? Not new.
Die-Cut autographs? Like the slew of die-cut autographs from last year...Finest...baseball...football...hardly new.

So no, the above is hardly new and wouldn't really classify as "innovation." Did you bust any Topps Chrome Football this year? A proverbial cornucopia of football delights...parallels, inserts, autographs, reprints, etc...but that's not a basically prospect product so they must not have tried.

Blah blah blah.

As for game-used, that cat is out of the bag...dragged dead and rotten. With absolutely questionable chain of command and almost zero integrity, who cares if it's 1cmx1cm or 2"x2"...it's probably never been worn/used by the player.

As for Magic keeping doors open but not baseball cards...ask Chris. When was the last time you interrupted a baseball card tournament causing a cloud of Cheeto's dust and spurts of half-sipped Mountain Dew when you walked in? How about heavy trading of "base" cards? Needing multiple Lance Berkman singles to have a stronger deck? Players can use every single card in their Magic packs, while 95% of the cards you pull in a baseball card box are destined for the trashcan. That's not for a lack of innovation, it's a totally devalued product that we pay money for.

Someone can buy a box of the new Magic Gigantasauristopiamouscityoplex product and look at the new artwork, learn the new "powers" or whatever and play with the cards...with real people. Bust open a box of Topps Tribute and get a couple garbage autographs, some worthless jerseys, a couple base cards of guys you already know everything about...and take an 80% kick in the pants with nothing else to do with them.

The hobby shifted...from a hobby to a business. It's more about flipping and "investing" rather than collecting. That's a fact. Why? Who knows, but that's a wholesale change that is a generational issue, not anything to do with hobby stores, manufacturers, etc.

In a previous post, you mentioned that you used to spend $20K a year, now you're at $2K...so please, go back, and let me know how you spent that $20K compared to how you spent the $2K.

 

[bmc398]

Seriously? I thought you were implying that Topps only "pushes the envelope" with prospect related products...not simply repeat past "innovations" just in a prospect format.

White Ice Refractor? Not new, simply a continuation of the "Ice"/"Wave" theme previously released.
Black Ice Autograph? Like last year's "Wave" redemption autographs, just now in packs.
Mini Chrome rookies? Well, minis aren't new, chrome isn't new...but mini Chrome cards are. Yeah innovation!
"Social Media" autograph? Most people used to call them "inscriptions" but a new name means more innovation!
Rookie Reprint Refractors? Not new.
Die-Cut autographs? Like the slew of die-cut autographs from last year...Finest...baseball...football...hardly new.

So no, the above is hardly new and wouldn't really classify as "innovation." Did you bust any Topps Chrome Football this year? A proverbial cornucopia of football delights...parallels, inserts, autographs, reprints, etc...but that's not a basically prospect product so they must not have tried.

Blah blah blah.

As for game-used, that cat is out of the bag...dragged dead and rotten. With absolutely questionable chain of command and almost zero integrity, who cares if it's 1cmx1cm or 2"x2"...it's probably never been worn/used by the player.

As for Magic keeping doors open but not baseball cards...ask Chris. When was the last time you interrupted a baseball card tournament causing a cloud of Cheeto's dust and spurts of half-sipped Mountain Dew when you walked in? How about heavy trading of "base" cards? Needing multiple Lance Berkman singles to have a stronger deck? Players can use every single card in their Magic packs, while 95% of the cards you pull in a baseball card box are destined for the trashcan. That's not for a lack of innovation, it's a totally devalued product that we pay money for.

Someone can buy a box of the new Magic Gigantasauristopiamouscityoplex product and look at the new artwork, learn the new "powers" or whatever and play with the cards...with real people. Bust open a box of Topps Tribute and get a couple garbage autographs, some worthless jerseys, a couple base cards of guys you already know everything about...and take an 80% kick in the pants with nothing else to do with them.

The hobby shifted...from a hobby to a business. It's more about flipping and "investing" rather than collecting. That's a fact. Why? Who knows, but that's a wholesale change that is a generational issue, not anything to do with hobby stores, manufacturers, etc.

In a previous post, you mentioned that you used to spend $20K a year, now you're at $2K...so please, go back, and let me know how you spent that $20K compared to how you spent the $2K.

Most of the above mentioned are new ideas to baseball. Of course you aren't always going to come up with something absolutely brand new...but including something that hasn't been in a product before that adds value is indeed innovation...especially in the scale that Topps has deployed it in Bowman 2013. The acetate auto rookie reprint idea in tier one in 2012 was something that was innovative....but when the rest of the product takes a huge backslide it ruins the forward step you made.

I played Magic at Gilmore's store for while but stopped about a year ago. It was fun, it was ok but it wasn't for me. I wasn't into it like most people are with the artwork and the card text and stuff like that. I really don't see why people bust the product en masse....its less of a moneymaking venture than baseball cards to be honest. People bust packs because there are formats that involve the busting of packs within the game and thats really how about 70% of product gets opened.

When I dropped 20K on cards, it was everything. Cases of A&G. Cases of prospect stuff. Cases of high end. Now i'm bored of A&G and set building products (whats so different in the 2013 set than the 2006 set?) In high end for topps, why spend $1000+ for a guaranteed junk kick? The prospect stuff was the only product I could ever think of making anywhere close to my money back on (I was a collector first though...but lets be honest....EVERYBODY sells cards who busts, collector or not). I actually did A LOT of hockey and football stuff too. I still do the occasional football box here or there, but in baseball it's literally Bowman or nothing. I can't be the only person who feels this way...

 

[predatorkj]

Magic not a money maker? Pack for pack and card for card, Magic has got to be worth more. Besides, even the base cards have use and at times one person may want/need four copies of one card. And people do buy it in large quantities. Same with Yughio. A buddy of mine has a shop at the flea market here and on Yughio/ Magic, he makes about $1200-$1500 a weekend. Mind you that's only on weekends as the flea market isn't open any other days. In fact, he quit buying sports stuff to put out there because no matter what he brought out there, he was getting $60-$100 a weekend. It just wasn't worth it for him anymore.

 

[uniquebaseballcards]

There's no axe to grind...I like Topps products for the most part. They are good at the things they do well and try not to venture out at that. I used to be a 20K a year guy into the hobby. Now im a 2K a year guy into the hobby. Its not because I hate Topps. Its not because I hate myself....its because there is nothing out there besides the occasional bowman release, football box or my yearly case of draft really gets my attention anymore.

You're turning this into a (insert collector here) has no life so they XXXXX about topps just to XXXXX. Thats about as far from the truth as it can be. I'm XXXXXing because the hobby I love really isn't the hobby it was 4-5 years ago and part of that is because of the lack of competition in the baseball market. Thats all. I'm not some deep dark depressed guy waiting for Topps to brighten up my life with an innovative idea. I'm a guy on a card site who talks to shop owners who see the same issue in the hobby that he does.

Your posts had no points to them. You basically tried to turn it on me, project images that I am some depressed guy in my mothers basement who is just XXXXXing to XXXXX. If you see it that way, fine...but the thread was started for you to have a real opinion or criticism of whats going on....not of me. You can say your posts weren't personal but its clear they were. I get it, you are tired of people XXXXXing about Topps. You think they are doing a find job, but some in the industry don't. Its opinion vs. opion and I can respect that. What I don't respect are the personal digs at me...

You're loosing sight of what you claimed to be doing in your initial post and what I said in my initial post which clearly wasn't directed at you... and the rest you kind of stepped into yourself.

You do seem to be hanging on a little tight here, and of course none of this makes any difference to me. But given the topic and your resulting posts, one could certainly wonder if its at least a little true. The more you argue against it the more true it seems LOL.

 

[notjomommasclint]

You can't really produce the same vet/hof players year after year without it getting stale. As to where the prospect driven stuff has a new face every year. Plus much of the effort topps puts into bowman wouldn't be celebrated in non prospect products.

As a collector I would rather buy triple threads, sterling, and tribute over bowman and bowman chrome.




I'm old Greg

 

[ThoseBackPages]

You can't really produce the same vet/hof players year after year without it getting stale. As to where the prospect driven stuff has a new face every year. Plus much of the effort topps puts into bowman wouldn't be celebrated in non prospect products.



I'm cuckold Greg

I agree with cuckold Greg

 

[nappyd]

I meant the small incremental things, sorry of like how Madden video games get features that show up in the next year's version of the ncaa game, I see them trying that with bowman

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Freedom Card Board mobile app

 

[bmc398]

You're loosing sight of what you claimed to be doing in your initial post and what I said in my initial post which clearly wasn't directed at you... and the rest you kind of stepped into yourself.

You do seem to be hanging on a little tight here, and of course none of this makes any difference to me. But given the topic and your resulting posts, one could certainly wonder if its at least a little true. The more you argue against it the more true it seems LOL.

What you said in your second post WAS directed at me. If any pot stirring is going on, its to have the one major company in the space maybe perk their heads up and listen. That's all. You obviously take issue with it and feel that things are fine....and thats totally your right. You didn't argue that though. You turned it into a "you have issues in life so you have issues with topps" arguement. If you knew me and weren't hiding behind internet anonymity, you would know this to not be true.

 

[bmc398]

Magic not a money maker? Pack for pack and card for card, Magic has got to be worth more. Besides, even the base cards have use and at times one person may want/need four copies of one card. And people do buy it in large quantities. Same with Yughio. A buddy of mine has a shop at the flea market here and on Yughio/ Magic, he makes about $1200-$1500 a weekend. Mind you that's only on weekends as the flea market isn't open any other days. In fact, he quit buying sports stuff to put out there because no matter what he brought out there, he was getting $60-$100 a weekend. It just wasn't worth it for him anymore.

To me, the spaces are for two different animals. Magic is a game. Most cards....good or bad see play and have utility. We know that is not the case with sports cards where base and even insert cards are almost afterthoughts. If you are a casual Magi player and collector, its not a money making venture. If you are an established shop like FCB or something like that, it is easy to buy low and sell high and make money in the space.

To me, the biggest difference is the money potential. For a distributor AND retailer, the sole way to make a solid profit is to sell boxes. There is no temptation ever that there is a $10,000 card in a pack. There is no hot chase item (besides a one per 3 box $30 card). There's a new set, and its either popular or not, but you don't see as much speculation in the market by distributors, retailers or collectors so it makes it easier to dependably make a profit on the sealed product AND singles.

The baseball card market is so hard because everything is so hit or miss....if its a terrible product its hard to move a box of it, none the less case after case of it, which they have required you to buy to get cases of the good products. Just ask Gilmore...once a product is deemed good by the distributor THEY start speculating on it, claiming your initial allocation at original margin got cut....they jack up the price and try to sell you your original agreed to allocation at a higher price. The same distributor DOES NOT do this on the gaming side....but its totally acceptable practice to them to do it on the sports card side? Its something fundamentally flawed with the industry and the players in it.....not necessarily the hobby itself. And yes, this kind of stuff does drive people out of the hobby....again, just ask the proprietor of the site.

 

[bmc398]

I meant the small incremental things, sorry of like how Madden video games get features that show up in the next year's version of the ncaa game, I see them trying that with bowman

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Freedom Card Board mobile app

This year it was A LOT of small incremental things that led to an overall different and better looking product though!

 

[200lbhockeyplayer]

[MENTION=3387]bmc398[/MENTION] pick a direction and run with it. You've gone in multiple different directions, yet most seem to bludgeon the previous.

You implied that Topps only pushes the envelope with prospect products…yet clearly know that it isn't the case as every example appeared in a veteran themed baseball or football product previously.

You earlier asked that if Magic could be successful, why not sports cards implying a certain similarity…and then you jump to defining how and why Magic is clearly very different.

You make a bizarre leap to assume that [MENTION=2738]uniquebaseballcards[/MENTION] is making some personal attack when he wasn't.

You state that innovation is needed for products like A&G so you can continue to drop your tens of thousands busting cases…but A&G never changed, the interest in "retro" products did. That's evolution, not lack of innovation and few ever thought retro products would ever have ever lasting product longevity.

You state how at least two hobby stores in Atlanta would agree with your points…yet with the insane slew of variables, that is meaningless.

Innovation isn't going to grab the guy in off of the street and start buying baseball cards. Especially the Gen-X era guys who thought they were going to retire on their stash of Gregg Jeffries and Ricky Jordan rookies. Or how about those outsiders who got swept into the hype on the Derek Jeter / George Bush gimmick that trended well outside of the hobby? Lost their tails again. Wow, what a fun hobby for beginners!

Innovation or the lack of, didn't cause this site and many others to drop users and content.

At the end of the day, the hobby enthusiasts and shops have zero credibility. Not an ounce. Why? Because we're too dumb and weak as enthusiasts to vote with our wallets. And hobby shops are always looking for others to blame as to why they aren't successful…like most businesses.

As far as I'm concerned, hobby stores have two outside negative influences that affect their possibility for success…economy and baseball's shrinking market. Everything else is on them. Pretty much everything.

I understand you're looking for some "action" for a blog or podcast topic…but rein it in.

 

[ThoseBackPages]

TTT

 

[predatorkj]

TTT

Really? Lol. Trying to see if the prospectors and player collectors will tear out each others throats....?

 

[ThoseBackPages]

this thread is one of the best ones ive seen here this year!

 

[notjomommasclint]

I agree with cuckold Greg

Cuckold is one of my all time favorite words!! As is rapacious!


I'm old Greg

 

[allstars]

Hockeydude, while you make some valid points your posts imply that all cardshops are failing & doomed. That is incorrect. Some are booming & doing better than just good enough to stay open. We always adjust to make our livings, we always have. My successful business practices are my own business, hence I won't go into detail on them here or anywhere else. But I still feel I have the greatest job in the world, and I could cash-out any time & live the rest of my life comfortably with what I've built via my cardshop. I'm 47 and have never done anything else for a living. Thank God.

 

[predatorkj]

Hockeydude, while you make some valid points your posts imply that all cardshops are failing & doomed. That is incorrect. Some are booming & doing better than just good enough to stay open. We always adjust to make our livings, we always have. My successful business practices are my own business, hence I won't go into detail on them here or anywhere else. But I still feel I have the greatest job in the world, and I could cash-out any time & live the rest of my life comfortably with what I've built via my cardshop. I'm 47 and have never done anything else for a living. Thank God.

Too bad you won't elaborate on your practices and what you're doing that's making it successful for you. I'd honestly be interested to know.

 

[Card Magnet]

They used the same photo of Jose Bautista in two consecutive years. They photoshopped him into a different jersey...of the same team.

They have now used the same photo of Trayce Thompson (White sox prospect) for three years running.

Those are just a few of many. They are just naturally cheap and lazy.

Sent from the FCB Droid app, which means I'm probably on the crapper.

 

[nappyd]

Maybe he's like buster bluth, hard to be seen our photographed

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