THE GREATEST PLAYERS OF ALL-TIME TEAM - by position - Relief Pitcher

[Frow]

I'm sorry I just simply cannot agree with 'little to do'. I agree my comparison was biased because the Yankees have had good bats in their lineup for years but then comparing Jeter to Williams is completely different. There are 8 other hitters in the lineup. For the last 15 or so years there have been probably over 50 different hitters in the Yankees starting lineup probably more but only closer. When you have a one-two run lead in the ninth Mariano is your man to lock the game down. I know you know your baseball stuff so I won't insult your intelligence but I hope you do understand how good an elite closer is to a team..

I agree with Hive, to put so much of the credit on the shoulders of someone who plays 4% or less of innings played seems a bit ridiculous. People with a lot more time on their hands than I have calculated that the winning percentage of a team going into the 9th leading by 1 run is 83-85%. So regardless of who is pitching, the best team money can buy has an almost certain chance of winning. On top of that most of the time he was put in there was likely no one on base so really no pressure. Having a player pitch 1 inning every few days with an almost guaranteed chance of winning already kind of seems like the definition of "little to do" to me.

Another little tid bit, no team that had someone get 50+ saves in a season has won the world series.

 

[homerun28aa]

I agree with Hive, to put so much of the credit on the shoulders of someone who plays 4% or less of innings played seems a bit ridiculous. People with a lot more time on their hands than I have calculated that the winning percentage of a team going into the 9th leading by 1 run is 83-85%. So regardless of who is pitching, the best team money can buy has an almost certain chance of winning. On top of that most of the time he was put in there was likely no one on base so really no pressure. Having a player pitch 1 inning every few days with an almost guaranteed chance of winning already kind of seems like the definition of "little to do" to me.

Another little tid bit, no team that had someone get 50+ saves in a season has won the world series.

If it's so easy and there's no pressure why isn't every closer considered as good as Mariano Rivera? There's a reason he has 40 votes with the next best having 12. I understand he may not be as important as someone like a Halladay, I understand he may not be as important as a Pujols to a team...but I've never ever been a fan of a computer calculating the percentage of how likely a team is to win in the 9th inning not knowing who is playing who or who is coming to the plate just simply that the team has a one-run lead. To get a percentage that close between 83 and 85% is ridiculous. That just doesn't make any sense to me not knowing any of the variables and getting an estimate that close.

Again, not saying Rivera is the reason they won those world championships, but he was certainly a part of the reason. Do you know any pitcher period that has a cutter like Rivera's? Now going back to the original argument, Eckersley's 1992 season where he won the Cy Young and MVP is extremely impressive, but I just disagree that that should be weighted more than Mo's career as a whole. And if you continue to believe he has 'little to do' with the Yankees success I'll just respectfully disagree with you. Verlander won the Cy Young and MVP last year, Randy Johnson never won an MVP award, so by your logic and Hive's logic, since Verlander had that MVP season he is better than Randy?

 

[D-Lite]

Mo is the best CLOSER of all time, and he gets one of my votes. He's good for one inning, and occasionally a little more. Eckersley is the 2nd best CLOSER of all time, but my vote for second greatest relief pitcher goes to Gossage (with all apologies to Dr. Mike). He could go for three innings if you need him, and he scared the hell out of me as a kid. If he had retired a month earlier (before the 1994 strike), he would have had a career ERA under 3.00 (it was 2.99 on July 1st).

Your point about Gossage and the effort he put in is surely valid and is the reason he's in the HOF at all. But Mariano has a ton of two inning saves especially earlier in his career and even more regularly in the playoffs. That's worth a lot especially in those high leverage situations when losses end your season. And as it turns out no pitcher has been his equal when it counts most, in the post season.
141 IP
0.759 WHIP
0.70 ERA
42 saves
Also, in 96 career post season games, he pitched at least 1.1 IP in 58 of them. That's pretty crazy for a modern day closer. And 141 post season innings is 2 full seasons for a reliever. Nutty.

I find it relatively difficult to vote for any of these modern day "closers." When without you the team has a 91% chance of winning anyway and the guy considered to be the best of all time converts 88% of the time, how impressive is that really?

The save is a flawed stat as it is. Let's frame it this way:
Gossage: 310 saves, 112 blown, 73 save %, HOF, widely considered one of the best.
Eckersley: 390 saves, ??? blown?

As it turns out, MLB does not recognize the blown save as an official stat. I can't find Eck's numbers anywhere. Why even use saves if you're not going to count "blown"? That's like counting wins but not losses.

 

[hive17]

If it's so easy and there's no pressure why isn't every closer considered as good as Mariano Rivera? There's a reason he has 40 votes with the next best having 12. I understand he may not be as important as someone like a Halladay, I understand he may not be as important as a Pujols to a team...but I've never ever been a fan of a computer calculating the percentage of how likely a team is to win in the 9th inning not knowing who is playing who or who is coming to the plate just simply that the team has a one-run lead. To get a percentage that close between 83 and 85% is ridiculous. That just doesn't make any sense to me not knowing any of the variables and getting an estimate that close.

Again, not saying Rivera is the reason they won those world championships, but he was certainly a part of the reason. Do you know any pitcher period that has a cutter like Rivera's? Now going back to the original argument, Eckersley's 1992 season where he won the Cy Young and MVP is extremely impressive, but I just disagree that that should be weighted more than Mo's career as a whole. And if you continue to believe he has 'little to do' with the Yankees success I'll just respectfully disagree with you. Verlander won the Cy Young and MVP last year, Randy Johnson never won an MVP award, so by your logic and Hive's logic, since Verlander had that MVP season he is better than Randy?

We're not discounting Mo's contribution to the Yankees. But you really can't use his appearances in the World Series as some sort of "one-up" on the other great closers. The World Series is the culmination of a team of 25 and a manager playing 162 games, then the play-offs. Mo isn't doing something special to purposely get his team in the play-offs or World Series; at least, nothing past what he normally does.

Again, if you want to give special weight to World Series appearances (as it pertains to this arguement), than you would have to agree to my Jeter/Williams arguement, since it follows the exact same logic.

Also, I'm not saying Eck or Fingers' MVP seasons over-come Mo's career. But if I do point it out in reference to why the voting shouldn't be that close, and/or that Mo isn't as elite compared to the field.

 

[nosterbor]

I have the only vote for Sutter thus far.
"OHHHHH What ah man!"
Jack Brickhouse

 

[homerun28aa]

We're not discounting Mo's contribution to the Yankees. But you really can't use his appearances in the World Series as some sort of "one-up" on the other great closers. The World Series is the culmination of a team of 25 and a manager playing 162 games, then the play-offs. Mo isn't doing something special to purposely get his team in the play-offs or World Series; at least, nothing past what he normally does.

Again, if you want to give special weight to World Series appearances (as it pertains to this arguement), than you would have to agree to my Jeter/Williams arguement, since it follows the exact same logic.

Also, I'm not saying Eck or Fingers' MVP seasons over-come Mo's career. But if I do point it out in reference to why the voting shouldn't be that close, and/or that Mo isn't as elite compared to the field.

I understand that point, but again with the Jeter/Williams logic there are 8 other hitters on each team, but only one closer. But anyways I'm not sure besides those single fantastic years that Fingers and Eckersley have, what numbers are you relying on to support your point that Mo's career is close with either of those two?

Eckersley career ERA is 3.50
Fingers is something like 2.90
Rivera is 2.21

 

[leatherman]

Eckersley career ERA is 3.50
Fingers is something like 2.90
Rivera is 2.21

Eck's ERA as a relief pitcher (1987-1998) is just 2.96. If we are going to compare numbers for relief pitchers, we probably shouldn't include their numbers as a starter.

That being said, if you remove Mo's 1995 season (where he started 10 games and had an ERA of 5.51), his career ERA is just 2.02!

 

[hive17]

I understand that point, but again with the Jeter/Williams logic there are 8 other hitters on each team, but only one closer. But anyways I'm not sure besides those single fantastic years that Fingers and Eckersley have, what numbers are you relying on to support your point that Mo's career is close with either of those two?

Eckersley career ERA is 3.50
Fingers is something like 2.90
Rivera is 2.21

Well, not to get too "old school", but Fingers and Eck and the like pitched relief when is was just a guy running in after 8 innings were in the books and mopping up. The older relievers typically went 2-3 innings and still got the save.

I'm going to say that Mo was the best "closer" in the game, but the position changed and got more refined by the time Mo was doing it. Hard-core relievers worked much harder than modern "closers".

And not to get back to my Jeter/Williams point, but you basically gave me more arguement. If Jeter and/or Williams had 8 other guys helping him out, then it's fair to point out that Mo had other guys pitching 8 other innings. Mo was maybe responsible for 5% of the innings pitched in any given year.

 

[elmalo]

Mo is the main reason that they won all of those World Series. He was the difference. The Yankees were able to hold onto leads when other teams werent able to. The guy has dominated his position for the last 15 years. He is about as close to automatic as you will find in any sport.

I always liked this qoute from Reggie
Rivera, 40, has been so good for so long that Reggie Jackson ranks him not in the category of the bullpen specialist but in the transcendent grouping of sports icons.
“For what he does, he’s maybe the most dominant athlete other than Bill Russell that I know,” Jackson said. “But it’s also in the way he does it. Quiet. Humble. Mariano is regal, baseball royalty.”

 

[leatherman]

Fingers was definitely not just a guy who came in after 8 innings to mop up. He was an "old school" type relief pitcher.

Most 3 IP saves in a career:

Rk            Player #Matching
1       Hoyt Wilhelm        53
2        Gene Garber        52
3      Mike Marshall        40
4        Bob Stanley        37
5    Dan Quisenberry        37
6     [B]Rollie Fingers[/B]        36
7      Bill Campbell        35
8        Sparky Lyle        32
9         Tug McGraw        31
10       John Hiller        29
11    Lindy McDaniel        28
12      Gary Lavelle        28
13    Roger McDowell        27
14     Aurelio Lopez        27
15      Pedro Borbon        27
16      Clay Carroll        25
17      Rich Gossage        24
18          Ron Reed        23
19       Dick Radatz        23
20    Darold Knowles        23
21       Dave Giusti        23
22    Ron Perranoski        22
23    Firpo Marberry        22
24     Terry Forster        22
25     Tom Burgmeier        22

Most 2 IP saves in a career:

Rk            Player #Matching
1     [B]Rollie Fingers[/B]       135
2       Bruce Sutter       130
3       Rich Gossage       125
4    Dan Quisenberry       120
5       Hoyt Wilhelm       114
6        Gene Garber       107
7      Mike Marshall        95
8          Lee Smith        94
9        Sparky Lyle        91
10        Tug McGraw        79
11      Jeff Reardon        78
12    Ron Perranoski        77
13   Steve Bedrosian        77
14    Lindy McDaniel        74
15        Stu Miller        72
16       Greg Minton        71
17     Bill Campbell        66
18       Bob Stanley        65
19    Roger McDowell        63
20      Kent Tekulve        62
21       Don McMahon        62
22        Doug Jones        62
23       Dick Radatz        61
24    Darold Knowles        58
25       Dave Giusti        58

Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 5/23/2012.

 

[homerun28aa]

Well, not to get too "old school", but Fingers and Eck and the like pitched relief when is was just a guy running in after 8 innings were in the books and mopping up. The older relievers typically went 2-3 innings and still got the save.

I'm going to say that Mo was the best "closer" in the game, but the position changed and got more refined by the time Mo was doing it. Hard-core relievers worked much harder than modern "closers".

And not to get back to my Jeter/Williams point, but you basically gave me more arguement. If Jeter and/or Williams had 8 other guys helping him out, then it's fair to point out that Mo had other guys pitching 8 other innings. Mo was maybe responsible for 5% of the innings pitched in any given year.

Like I said, Mo definitely needed good starters to have any success at all, I am not disputing that a sick starter is probably more valuable than a sick closer. But like elmalo said below you, if you have someone who locks a one-run lead for you night in and night out in the toughest situations that guy deserves more credit than 'little to do with the titles'

 

[nosterbor]

Your point about Gossage and the effort he put in is surely valid and is the reason he's in the HOF at all. But Mariano has a ton of two inning saves especially earlier in his career and even more regularly in the playoffs. That's worth a lot especially in those high leverage situations when losses end your season. And as it turns out no pitcher has been his equal when it counts most, in the post season.
141 IP
0.759 WHIP
0.70 ERA
42 saves
Also, in 96 career post season games, he pitched at least 1.1 IP in 58 of them. That's pretty crazy for a modern day closer. And 141 post season innings is 2 full seasons for a reliever. Nutty.


The save is a flawed stat as it is. Let's frame it this way:
Gossage: 310 saves, 112 blown, 73 save %, HOF, widely considered one of the best.
Eckersley: 390 saves, ??? blown?

As it turns out, MLB does not recognize the blown save as an official stat. I can't find Eck's numbers anywhere. Why even use saves if you're not going to count "blown"? That's like counting wins but not losses.

" Mariano has a ton of two inning saves "
SERIOUSLY! look at the list above. Sutter is 2nd on that list and got the lowest vote total. Just shows how much some people know. How many 2/3 of an inning or less saves does Mo have? Yes he is good but he would not have lasted as long as some as the guys in the 70's and 80's. I saw them all pitch. I will still take Sutter.