Time for debate: Is Mariano the best closer ever?

[011873]

Just keep in mind that just because someone has "more" of something, it doesnt make him better. Aaron has more HR than Ruth, doesnt make Aaron better. Nomo has more no hitters than Clemens, doesnt make him better. Just keep this in mind.

This should be good.

 

[Lancemountain]

Jose Mesa, FTW


[/thread]

 

[wolfmanalfredo]

I take Nomo over Clemens. But I take Johnson over everyone in the last 10+ years. Pedro is a close second. Hoffman is going to get snubbed from the hall like Blyleven, but Mariano is the most dominant closer of our era.


If you look at the top three since 04 right...Its Hoffman, Nathan, Rivera...in that order if I'm not mistaken. What makes Mariano better then the two closers in front of him is that he's 90% effective, and most importantly, he's in NY. A great closer, but Hoffman has to be the best by cllosing for non NY type teams. Eck is still thhe best in my book.

Mariano is a great GREAT closer, but the only reason he's considered the greatest is because he's played in NY. IMO

 

[ccolwell]

I love how this was posted shortly after that spitball debacle. Expect a lot of swayed answers because of that. And to answer your question yes mariano is the best closer of all time.

 

[wolfmanalfredo]

I love how this was posted shortly after that spitball debacle. Expect a lot of swayed answers because of that. And to answer your question yes mariano is the best closer of all time.

This is my opinion, but if Mariano was on a different team with the same stats, he'd be considered on of the greats...and he should be! The only reason he's in talks of the best of all time is because he's in NY. If he had the exact same stats in pittsburgh, nobody would shrug their shoulders in his direction. He's an amazing closer, more then likely the best of this generation, but if he were on a different team with the same stats, none of these talks would happen.

I'm going to get flank from hardcore homers, but this is my opinion, and I'd like to see legitimate arguements putting my opinion to shame.

 

[colts1888]

i think he is the only reason he doesnt hsve more saves is becuase hes on the yankees thye usually laways win by 3 runs or more most of the time hes in it isnt a save situstion. What makes him the best is how dominant he has been but more importantl how perfect hes been in the playoffs he has an era under and only had one flaw his whole career in the playoffs

 

[KC37]

Yes.

No disrespect to Eck or Trevor Hoffman (2 and 3 for me), but - as was mentioned - his complete postseason dominance wins it out for him, coupled with the professionalism and class he has maintained.

 

[hive17]

i can't argue much for or against Mo or Hoffman.

I will say this, YES, having the most of something DOES mean something. Hoffman's record is still impressive. And how dominant he was this year makes me respect him even more. You HAVE to be something special if you've been throwing the same, low-velocity pitch for a decade+ and people are still wiffing badly at it.

Mo has the edge for his post season work. This next statement has nothing to do with Mo, but: POST SEASON PLAY IS OVERRATED. The TEAM makes it to the post season. Too many people act like the regular season meant nothing to get to the playoffs. Stop using the PS season as a measure of greatness. By that rationale, David Justice should be in discussions as the greatest player or all time.

 

[NYCrulesU]

Yes.

No disrespect to Eck or Trevor Hoffman (2 and 3 for me), but - as was mentioned - his complete postseason dominance wins it out for him, coupled with the professionalism and class he has maintained.

Perfectly stated. +1

 

[matfanofold]

Just keep in mind that just because someone has "more" of something, it doesnt make him better..

This quote got me thinking.....

Ultimately it's true, but to a large delta of varying degree's! Does more HR's make someone better than someone else? Of course not, but the reason for this is because there is so much more a position player can do to solidify greatness, like hit's, stolen bases, cluch performance, batting average, ops, defence, ect... However, with a closer, there is really only one important role, and thats to get the save. So in the case of a closer, more is better! More saves per year, more saves per carear. Aside from post season play, there is little else to grade them on.

On a side note, simply because Aaron had many more HR's than Ruth did not make him better. It was the fact he had many more HR's, many more hits, more stolen bases, more RBI's and played a outstanding defence durring a period of baseball where it was dominated by pitching. If Aaron was a Yankee they would be called the NY Aarons now and we would celebrate Hank Aaron day instead of Christmas. Taking nothing from Ruth though, I think he may be number 2 or 3 of all time.

 

[ballcardzdotcom]

There really is nothing to debate. The man has been automatic forever.

 

[leatherman]

I thought this was widely understood, without argument.

David

 

[Johan Santana 57]

i can't argue much for or against Mo or Hoffman.

I will say this, YES, having the most of something DOES mean something. Hoffman's record is still impressive. And how dominant he was this year makes me respect him even more. You HAVE to be something special if you've been throwing the same, low-velocity pitch for a decade+ and people are still wiffing badly at it.

Mo has the edge for his post season work. This next statement has nothing to do with Mo, but: POST SEASON PLAY IS OVERRATED. The TEAM makes it to the post season. Too many people act like the regular season meant nothing to get to the playoffs. Stop using the PS season as a measure of greatness. By that rationale, David Justice should be in discussions as the greatest player or all time.

Hoffman is great, has the record. But to do it with the same pitch, that argument holds little water since Mo does it all with one pitch as well, the cutter. Hoffman at least throws other pitches.

There is absolutely no debate about it, but if there is any questions about it, then post season stats should matter and he clearly puts himself ahead of anybody with them.

Look at this post season in how many closers are shaky and blown saves there are. It isn't as simple when a guy gets saves against the Nationals or the Royals. Post season is against the top teams in the leagues, usually playing at their best.

 

[leatherman]

Some stats:

Generally, the pitching requirements for career pitching rates is 1000 IP. Mariano Rivera has the highest ERA+ of all time. By a large margin (202-154 over Pedro Martinez).

I know, I know. He's a reliever. His ERA+ is SUPPOSED to be higher than average. But it's astronomically high compared to anyone else, INCLUDING relievers. If you sort all pitchers in MLB history with an ERA+ greater than 200 by innings pitched, you will see Rivera stand high above the rest there too: http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/shareit/aSnQY

1090 IP vs 298 IP. Only 4 pitchers in history have an ERA+ over 200, and pitched over 100 innings. That's amazing.

He has allowed 10 ER in 125.1 career postseason innings, for an ERA of 0.72. His career postseason WHIP is 0.766. He is 8-1 in the postseason.

One last thing: the "closer" has only been around since Eckersley. There were never 9th inning specialists before him.

David

 

[HPC]

Hoffman is going to get snubbed from the hall like Blyleven,

This part made me laugh

 

[KC37]

Yes.

No disrespect to Eck or Trevor Hoffman (2 and 3 for me), but - as was mentioned - his complete postseason dominance wins it out for him, coupled with the professionalism and class he has maintained.

Perfectly stated. +1

Did...did....did we just agree on something?
I think something heavy is about to fall on me. :lol:

 

[i43770]

i think he is the only reason he doesnt hsve more saves is becuase hes on the yankees thye usually laways win by 3 runs or more most of the time hes in it isnt a save situstion. What makes him the best is how dominant he has been but more importantl how perfect hes been in the playoffs he has an era under and only had one flaw his whole career in the playoffs

He has had two flaws in your playoff career, 1997 ALDS Game 5 and 2001 WS Game 7.

 

[Big Mac McGwire]

greatest of all time. There are guys who save games in the MLB. But there is only 1 Closer

 

[cvn66]

I don't remember the exact numbers (and I don't feel like looking them up right now), but I remember them well enough to make my point. Ignore saves, because it is a horribly flawed stat (i.e. not all saves are created equal). The way I look at greatness for a reliever is the situations they are brought into and their success at preventing inherited runners from scoring. Hoffman used to be a beast when it came to this. He had something like a 80% strand rate (trust me, that is exceptionally high), had a pretty good percentage of 1+ inning appearances and used to be brought into the game in situations where there were runners on base (averaged something like 30 inherited runners per season until 2002, or thereabouts). Hoffman since that time has become the Eck type reliever - only comes into games with a lead at the start of an inning. Since 2003, he as inherited something like 40 runners. It wouldn't be a hard sell to call him the best closer ever in his prime, but now, he is more of a compiler.

Rivera has been more consistent over his career. He is still used frequently for the 1+ inning save (especially in games against teams like the Red Sox) and yes, you have to factor in the post season in this argument. His career strand rates are not as good as Hoffman, but I think that can be mostly explained by the level of competition he faces. I am not sure if anyone would could honestly answer this question with something other than Rivera - "Who would you want on the mound in a bases loaded, less than 2 out situation in the 7th game of the World Series?"

To answer the question, Mo is probably the best, only slightly ahead of Hoffman.

 

[Jack Straw]

I dislike the Yankees as much as the next guy but I can honestly say they don't
win the 98,99 or 2000 World Series without him! It was game over all 3 of those seasons when
he came in. He is the greatest of all time hands down..