Top 5 PGs in NBA History

[Kutzy]

[quote="muskiesfan":35aq7eax]Everyone has made some nice lists.

I didn't mean to cause a problem. I thought we might get some good discussion/debate going, but that was about it.

I was going to do SGs tomorrow if everyone is interested.



Joe

I won't post mine.....since my logic is likely to be in question.

Who is twisting words again?

how am I twisting words??? did you not question my logic??? or do you not read your own posts and ALL OF THE CONTENT too???

No I did not question your logic. I asked hwo you forumlated your opinion, I did not question your logic. Good to know you are a hypocrite as well.

you really are a dubass, aren't you???

I never understood the logic of no championship = fail.

=questioning my logic![/quote:35aq7eax]

Not understandig =/= questioning. Its just you looking for a reason to be upset. Questioning your logic would be to poke holes it in and prove its not sound. Which I did not do, nor did I attempt or have an ambition to do.


Just to illistrate my point. I do not understand gravity, that does not mean I question it. It just means I dont understand it.

 

[Kutzy]

It doesn't bother me at all guys. Believe me, there have been much, much worse train wrecks on FCB. :lol: :lol:

I can see both sides of the argument. If you use rings in determining your list, then Stockton just doesn't make it. If you use just black and white stats, I think he has to make it. If you use a combination of the two plus intangibles, I would think he makes it. It all depends on how you look at it.

I know this is basketball, but follow me for a second. I am a huge Pete Rose fan, have been all my life. He's the Hit King in baseball. Of course he played for 24 seasons. So some people say that he was a compiler and not the great hitter I have always thought him to be.

Anyway, I use that because I think that's how some people feel about Stockton as well. Most of the PGs on everyone's lists tend to have played in the 13-14 season range while Stockton played 19. After 13-14 seasons did Stockton's number add up compared to the others? Now I am going to have to go look at the stats again. :lol: In my opinion though, out of the players on everyone's lists, Stockton is the most "pure" or "truest" PG on the lists.

Tomlinson- I agree with you about Chris Paul. He's still very young, but when it comes time to shut it down, I think he has a definite shot at being a Top 5 guy.



Joe

We have 2 current PG's who could make this list in 10 years. Along with Lebron, Wade, Melo, and a few other youngsters its a great talent pool in the NBA right now.

 

[Guest]

[quote="trojanfan43":1srly5bb][quote="muskiesfan":1srly5bb]Everyone has made some nice lists.

I didn't mean to cause a problem. I thought we might get some good discussion/debate going, but that was about it.

I was going to do SGs tomorrow if everyone is interested.



Joe

I won't post mine.....since my logic is likely to be in question.

Who is twisting words again?

how am I twisting words??? did you not question my logic??? or do you not read your own posts and ALL OF THE CONTENT too???

No I did not question your logic. I asked hwo you forumlated your opinion, I did not question your logic. Good to know you are a hypocrite as well.

you really are a dubass, aren't you???

I never understood the logic of no championship = fail.

=questioning my logic![/quote:1srly5bb]

Not understandig =/= questioning. Its just you looking for a reason to be upset. Questioning your logic would be to poke holes it in and prove its not sound. Which I did not do, nor did I attempt or have an ambition to do.[/quote:1srly5bb]

and you tried to by asking where Marino lands on my QB list and where Malone and Barkley landed on my PF's list....nevermind dude...you're a freakin' idiot.

 

[Kutzy]

I appreciate your opinion.

 

[Tomlinson21RB]

It doesn't bother me at all guys. Believe me, there have been much, much worse train wrecks on FCB. :lol: :lol:

I can see both sides of the argument. If you use rings in determining your list, then Stockton just doesn't make it. If you use just black and white stats, I think he has to make it. If you use a combination of the two plus intangibles, I would think he makes it. It all depends on how you look at it.

I know this is basketball, but follow me for a second. I am a huge Pete Rose fan, have been all my life. He's the Hit King in baseball. Of course he played for 24 seasons. So some people say that he was a compiler and not the great hitter I have always thought him to be.

Anyway, I use that because I think that's how some people feel about Stockton as well. Most of the PGs on everyone's lists tend to have played in the 13-14 season range while Stockton played 19. After 13-14 seasons did Stockton's number add up compared to the others? Now I am going to have to go look at the stats again. :lol: In my opinion though, out of the players on everyone's lists, Stockton is the most "pure" or "truest" PG on the lists.

Tomlinson- I agree with you about Chris Paul. He's still very young, but when it comes time to shut it down, I think he has a definite shot at being a Top 5 guy.



Joe

I look at averages for Stock and see 8 consecutive seasons averaging over 12 assists per game and a few of those are 14+ per game. During that time he averaged 14-19 ppg and shot up to around .550 %. That's a shooting percentage you see from a center, not a guard. He also averaged 2.4-3.0 steals per game during that time. CP3 is averaging 2.7-2.8 the last two years. So basically, I don't see why you can't say he was both a compiler and a dominant player. If you're going to set records that seem out of reach like he did you need to have some longevity, but in that time you need to dominate for a decent period of time.

 

[Tomlinson21RB]

It doesn't bother me at all guys. Believe me, there have been much, much worse train wrecks on FCB. :lol: :lol:

I can see both sides of the argument. If you use rings in determining your list, then Stockton just doesn't make it. If you use just black and white stats, I think he has to make it. If you use a combination of the two plus intangibles, I would think he makes it. It all depends on how you look at it.

I know this is basketball, but follow me for a second. I am a huge Pete Rose fan, have been all my life. He's the Hit King in baseball. Of course he played for 24 seasons. So some people say that he was a compiler and not the great hitter I have always thought him to be.

Anyway, I use that because I think that's how some people feel about Stockton as well. Most of the PGs on everyone's lists tend to have played in the 13-14 season range while Stockton played 19. After 13-14 seasons did Stockton's number add up compared to the others? Now I am going to have to go look at the stats again. :lol: In my opinion though, out of the players on everyone's lists, Stockton is the most "pure" or "truest" PG on the lists.

Tomlinson- I agree with you about Chris Paul. He's still very young, but when it comes time to shut it down, I think he has a definite shot at being a Top 5 guy.


Joe

We have 2 current PG's who could make this list in 10 years. Along with Lebron, Wade, Melo, and a few other youngsters its a great talent pool in the NBA right now.

Who's your 2nd? Williams?

 

[Kutzy]

Yes

 

[Tomlinson21RB]

Yes

I think Kidd deserves to be very close to the top 5 too. I forgot about him because of his recent troubles shooting and turning into a statue on defense, but he will end #2 on the assist list and for a while he was one of the most likely players in the game to put up a triple double any given night.

Total homer pick here, but I think Rondo is going to end a lot higher on the list than people think.

 

[Kutzy]

Well, Kidd and Nash are both in my top 10. I think they are fringe players who do a bit too much and not enough "PG" duties. My main reason for thinking Stockton>Magic was because I like to see a PG pass, defend, and only shoot when needed. I consider Stockton to fit that mold better than Magic.

Kidd never put up HUGE numbers but madeup for it with rebounds. On top of that his FG % is a downer imo when talking about PG's.

 

[muskiesfan]

It doesn't bother me at all guys. Believe me, there have been much, much worse train wrecks on FCB. :lol: :lol:

I can see both sides of the argument. If you use rings in determining your list, then Stockton just doesn't make it. If you use just black and white stats, I think he has to make it. If you use a combination of the two plus intangibles, I would think he makes it. It all depends on how you look at it.

I know this is basketball, but follow me for a second. I am a huge Pete Rose fan, have been all my life. He's the Hit King in baseball. Of course he played for 24 seasons. So some people say that he was a compiler and not the great hitter I have always thought him to be.

Anyway, I use that because I think that's how some people feel about Stockton as well. Most of the PGs on everyone's lists tend to have played in the 13-14 season range while Stockton played 19. After 13-14 seasons did Stockton's number add up compared to the others? Now I am going to have to go look at the stats again. :lol: In my opinion though, out of the players on everyone's lists, Stockton is the most "pure" or "truest" PG on the lists.

Tomlinson- I agree with you about Chris Paul. He's still very young, but when it comes time to shut it down, I think he has a definite shot at being a Top 5 guy.



Joe

I look at averages for Stock and see 8 consecutive seasons averaging over 12 assists per game and a few of those are 14+ per game. During that time he averaged 14-19 ppg and shot up to around .550 %. That's a shooting percentage you see from a center, not a guard. He also averaged 2.4-3.0 steals per game during that time. CP3 is averaging 2.7-2.8 the last two years. So basically, I don't see why you can't say he was both a compiler and a dominant player. If you're going to set records that seem out of reach like he did you need to have some longevity, but in that time you need to dominate for a decent period of time.

Thank you! Someone else who appears to see things the way I do. There is a difference between longevity and compiling. The majority of players who have extended careers tend to the players who fall on the side of longevity. They have the ability to still compete at a high level regardless of their age. True, there are times that players try to hang on an extra couple of years to try and reach milestones, but more often than not, players who have long careers just had the ability to stay competitive at a late age.

Magic's career FG% is slightly higher than Stockton's. When you look at how long Stockton played and the additional field goals he attempted, I think it makes his FG% that much more impressive.

To me, Stockton is a PG in every sense of the position. He was a Pure PG. He's exactly what you want your PG to be. Now don't get me wrong, if I could mix Stockton with the Big O and Magic, that would be a helluva ball player.



Joe

 

[Kutzy]

I will have to find my chart again on PG scoring, but it basically came down to 1 Assist = ~2.3 points.

So when comparing a PG to another position player you would assume that every Assist would equal 2.3 points when adding into their scoring line. Therefore when Stockton was putting up 14.5/17.2 and 14.2/17.2 he was actually directly involved for ~50 points per game. Thats an outstanding number.

Even moreso when you look at Jordans best years were the same output.

 

[muskiesfan]

I agree that Nash and Kidd would be in my top 10. So would Gary Payton.

Not trying to take anything from Magic, quite the opposite actually, but his body type/size allowed him to play multiple positions. He filled in at C for Jabbar during the 1980 Finals. He put in 42 and had 14 or 15 rebounds. He was exceptionally versatile and a great player. That's why Magic is only #3 on my list. He was a great athlete and basketball player, but not a true PG. At the same time, I guess the same could be said for Robertson. He played F on the 1960 Olympic Team.



Joe

 

[Kutzy]

Also Tomlinson on your note about Rondo. I have been called a "Rondo Hater" a time or 2, because I dont think he is as good as the hype. I think the big 3 have made him so far and have kind of shielded him from extra pressure. There is no denying his defensive abilities, just getting that out there. I just dont know if he is at that All-Star type level without them. He has an excellent chance to prove himself in the playoffs.

 

[Tomlinson21RB]

Also Tomlinson on your note about Rondo. I have been called a "Rondo Hater" a time or 2, because I dont think he is as good as the hype. I think the big 3 have made him so far and have kind of shielded him from extra pressure. There is no denying his defensive abilities, just getting that out there. I just dont know if he is at that All-Star type level without them. He has an excellent chance to prove himself in the playoffs.

It remains to be seen what he can do without the big three for an extended period of time, but some of his best games have been while garnett has been out.

 

[Kutzy]

Also Tomlinson on your note about Rondo. I have been called a "Rondo Hater" a time or 2, because I dont think he is as good as the hype. I think the big 3 have made him so far and have kind of shielded him from extra pressure. There is no denying his defensive abilities, just getting that out there. I just dont know if he is at that All-Star type level without them. He has an excellent chance to prove himself in the playoffs.

It remains to be seen what he can do without the big three for an extended period of time, but some of his best games have been while garnett has been out.

To be honest, I would love to see him exceed. I really have no favorite team and only 2 players I would call my favorite. I just love to watch the NBA and to have another great young PG out there would be wonderful.

 

[Tomlinson21RB]

Also Tomlinson on your note about Rondo. I have been called a "Rondo Hater" a time or 2, because I dont think he is as good as the hype. I think the big 3 have made him so far and have kind of shielded him from extra pressure. There is no denying his defensive abilities, just getting that out there. I just dont know if he is at that All-Star type level without them. He has an excellent chance to prove himself in the playoffs.

It remains to be seen what he can do without the big three for an extended period of time, but some of his best games have been while garnett has been out.

To be honest, I would love to see him exceed. I really have no favorite team and only 2 players I would call my favorite. I just love to watch the NBA and to have another great young PG out there would be wonderful.

It's also interesting to hear former great (Bob Cousy) and good (Doc Rivers) point guards absolutely gush over him. I know they're biased, but the praise they give this kid is impressive.