What is the ONE thing you hate most about the current state of the hobby?

[Mario1975]

It does seem the entire hobby has just turned into some form of gambling. Whether it's case breakers or flippers looking to jump on a product early in hopes of it getting hot after release and selling it for profit, people busting boxes in hopes of the big hit to sell on eBay, or prospectors hoarding prospects in hopes they become the next trout to sell. The card companies are only feeding the frenzy and encouraging this behavior by putting the emphasis on hits, making more one pack and prospect products, million dollar giveaway codes, etc. I don't remember the hobby being like that in the 80's. Even in the 90's I think hits were considered unexpected bonuses and not the main drive for people to bust boxes.

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[Bob Loblaw]

It does seem the entire hobby has just turned into some form of gambling. Whether it's case breakers or flippers looking to jump on a product early in hopes of it getting hot after release and selling it for profit, people busting boxes in hopes of the big hit to sell on eBay, or prospectors hoarding prospects in hopes they become the next trout to sell. The card companies are only feeding the frenzy and encouraging this behavior by putting the emphasis on hits, making more one pack and prospect products, million dollar giveaway codes, etc. I don't remember the hobby being like that in the 80's. Even in the 90's I think hits were considered unexpected bonuses and not the main drive for people to bust boxes.

I've read a lot of your posts -- I have to believe Gilmo is paying you to make so many -- and your level of naivete is astounding.

Baseball cards have ALWAYS been gambling. In the 60s, 70s, and 80s you were pulling "the hot superstar" or "the hot rookie". 1983 Fleer was insane for Ron Kittle stuff. 1984, Don Mattingly was on fire. 1985, you were hunting for the Eric Davis or Dwight Gooden in those packs. Prospectors have been hoarding prospects since the 80s. I remember buying 100 card bulk lots of guys like CHris James and Ron Jones from Gary Walter Baseball Cards. The hobby was like that in the 80s.

In the 90s - hits were unexpected bonuses? Are you kidding? The 90s were the boom of the insert -- first inserts were simply RARE cards -- Topps Stadium Club First Day Productions, Artist's Proofs, Donruss Elite, Museum Collection -- you name it, you hunted for the inserts. Upper Deck and Pacific raised the bar with GU cards and RARE autos (Hunt for the Ted Williams/Aaron/Ryan/Etc), and other companies followed.

I'm sorry, but your view of the hobby is different than it actually was. IT has always been gambling; there have always been case breakers and flippers, and as long as eBay's been around (mid 90s), flippers have been there to list product early. Prospectors have always prospected. I've been doing it since the 80s, with varying levels of success.

As for "Million Dollar Giveaway Codes" -- Topps used to insert MONEY into product! Topps used to also have contests per back to try to win mroe cards (remember 1992 "Winner" Golds?) and in the 80s, if you collected enough pack premiums, you could get the send-away glossies.


The only piece of your post that has any merit is the fact that Topps creates one pack products... but they still package it with base cards, which are a collectable set in and of themselves, for the most part.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Last two posts nailed it. 99 cent packs are fun. 200 dollar packs are a business and you better deliver or you will hear from us. Does anyone here buy a new 300 dollar tv and then not complain when it doesn't work?


Kevin

WIth a $200 pack, you have the ability to get a product worth $50 or worth $5000. No one blames the state when they lose on lottery tickets (Redneck 401k). This is NO different than a lottery ticket.

Your TV is designed to serve a purpose, not transform itself from a $300 19" tv to a $2500 74" LCD tv.

Apples and oranges.

 

[Mario1975]

I think there is a huge difference between jersey, auto, patch, relic cards used and promoted today for each product and the "hot rookie" of the 60s, 70s, and 80s. As far as I am aware the "hot rookie card" was not short printed or some unique inclusion specifically made to induce people to purchase the product, they were simply part of the regular checklist and produced in the same quantity as any other card. I also do not remember there being any products made in the 60s, 70s or 80s that were geared exclusively towards prospecting. I mean I think Bowman was reintroduced in 89 and really was the only product specifically targeted towards rookies and prospecting then. Even in the 90s, especially the early 90s, I don't think the main emphasis was getting the "big hit" as it is today, certainly not to the same degree. At least for me, especially at that young age, it was more about the checklists, look of the cards, etc. and I knew the chances of getting any kind of auto, Jersey, etc. was very slim and nothing I expected to get. I guess for you, even at the age of 12, it was about buying cards presale, prospecting, trying to win promotional contests, getting the big hit.

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[tramers]

$$$$

 

[jbjints]

I'm an old timer, well I don't know is 39 old? I've been trying to get back in to collecting and I am just so confused with inserts. Maybe now is the time to ask for someone to educate me? I know what base cards are, they are for the most part not valued high but then the companies throw in these inserts that are high in value, is this right? I've seen cards sell for a decent amount of money and what confuses me is where do you find these cards? I wish I could post an example right now but I'm on my iPad so if I leave the screen ill lose the post. The cards that are valued high are they pulls you can get from just buying a pack of cards or are the cards with value found in hobby boxes?

Sorry for the long post but when I see some of these relics, autos, etc. I wonder where exactly are these cards found?

 

[jbjints]

I miss the fun game of flip too. My friends and I would play all the time. Nowadays you'll never find any kid playing his friend in flip.

 

[Leaf]

Great thread... Really great thread!

Manufacturer roll call.... Any other manufacturers take the time to read this thread in its entirety?
If so, post here....

BG

P.s.- that's what I hate about the hobby. You guys post a great useful thread to improving the business.
I hate that the tree has fallen in the forest, and too few in power were there to hear it...
Rest assured, I know it made a sound (at least to me)

 

[jbhofmann]

Great thread... Really great thread!

Manufacturer roll call.... Any other manufacturers take the time to read this thread in its entirety?
If so, post here....

BG

P.s.- that's what I hate about the hobby. You guys post a great useful thread to improving the business.
I hate that the tree has fallen in the forest, and too few in power were there to hear it...
Rest assured, I know it made a sound (at least to me)

Well I guess this is the perfect time to out myself: I'm actually Ryan O’Hara the CEO/President of Topps.

Brian you will NEVER get that licence and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it.

 

[Brewer Andy]

I'm an old timer, well I don't know is 39 old? I've been trying to get back in to collecting and I am just so confused with inserts. Maybe now is the time to ask for someone to educate me? I know what base cards are, they are for the most part not valued high but then the companies throw in these inserts that are high in value, is this right? I've seen cards sell for a decent amount of money and what confuses me is where do you find these cards? I wish I could post an example right now but I'm on my iPad so if I leave the screen ill lose the post. The cards that are valued high are they pulls you can get from just buying a pack of cards or are the cards with value found in hobby boxes?

Sorry for the long post but when I see some of these relics, autos, etc. I wonder where exactly are these cards found?

You should probably just start a new thread, introduce yourself if you haven't already, and ask away there as it sounds like you've got a lot of questions. Plenty of good insight and guys to share would be happy to help you out! Welcome back

 

[Brewer Andy]

I miss the fun game of flip too. My friends and I would play all the time. Nowadays you'll never find any kid playing his friend in flip.

Somewhere I still have a Fleer Card Flipping Championship tshirt laying around

 

[Bob Loblaw]

I think there is a huge difference between jersey, auto, patch, relic cards used and promoted today for each product and the "hot rookie" of the 60s, 70s, and 80s. As far as I am aware the "hot rookie card" was not short printed or some unique inclusion specifically made to induce people to purchase the product, they were simply part of the regular checklist and produced in the same quantity as any other card. I also do not remember there being any products made in the 60s, 70s or 80s that were geared exclusively towards prospecting. I mean I think Bowman was reintroduced in 89 and really was the only product specifically targeted towards rookies and prospecting then. Even in the 90s, especially the early 90s, I don't think the main emphasis was getting the "big hit" as it is today, certainly not to the same degree. At least for me, especially at that young age, it was more about the checklists, look of the cards, etc. and I knew the chances of getting any kind of auto, Jersey, etc. was very slim and nothing I expected to get. I guess for you, even at the age of 12, it was about buying cards presale, prospecting, trying to win promotional contests, getting the big hit.

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The 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle, along with dozens of other hot cards over the years, was a double print. Topps made twice as many of those cards than other cards.

THere was no prospecting in the 60s or 70s because of the lack of media and baseball cards were not big business. In the mid 80s, the tide started turning, and prospecting started, really, with the 1983 Topps Traded Darryl Strawberry card. Add in Kittle and Joe CHarnabeau, both from 1983, Mattingly in 84, and Gooden in 85, and there was hardcore prospecting going on. It was insane in 1988 with Gregg Jefferies. (See a NY Theme?)

It was always about the big hit or the big player, even in the 50s or 60s. Not as many people wanted sets as they did their hometown star or big rookie to sell.

 

[dp33]

Casebreakers are not manipulating the system, Like you said, you don't buy a lot from the big breakers, so it must be the regular collectors who are flooding the market, (There are a lot more people listing 1-5 boxes on ebay than sellers listing 10-50 cases on ebay), they buy boxes to get a few cards they want and then dump the rest on ebay not caring what they get for them, because something is better than a bunch of cards they don't want.. Others see that and want to pay less because of that...

I don't understand - why would "others want to pay less because of that"? It would make me willing to pay more because I see what buying a box yields – a bunch of cards I don’t want – so I would be even more willing to pay extra to get the card I do want rather than pay even more to get a box of cards I don’t want.

I would rather see that being sold off ebay instead of a million eyes seeing it on ebay.

I'd rather every person who pulled Rickie Weeks cards offer them to me first off ebay rather than selling them on ebay where a million eyes can see them.

Most times, the big case breakers have buyers for a majority of their breaks and don't list much quantity on ebay.

Maybe that's how it works for you, but you can't tell me Brent or TNT don't sell almost every worthwhile card they get on ebay.

If everyone who sells, needs a business license, pay sales tax & income tax, then you would see a lot less sellers on ebay and less product being sold and the value of cards would go up..

If every casebreaker had to wait to break until the "regular collectors" could also break boxes and list cards on ebay, they wouldn't be able to make all their money as the first one to market. The value of cards to them would go down.

 

[uniquebaseballcards]

I'm an old timer, well I don't know is 39 old? I've been trying to get back in to collecting and I am just so confused with inserts. Maybe now is the time to ask for someone to educate me? I know what base cards are, they are for the most part not valued high but then the companies throw in these inserts that are high in value, is this right? I've seen cards sell for a decent amount of money and what confuses me is where do you find these cards? I wish I could post an example right now but I'm on my iPad so if I leave the screen ill lose the post. The cards that are valued high are they pulls you can get from just buying a pack of cards or are the cards with value found in hobby boxes?

Sorry for the long post but when I see some of these relics, autos, etc. I wonder where exactly are these cards found?

Confusing is right - "only" about ten million different card designs were produced the last dozen or so years to learn about... good luck LOL!

You can normally find big hits in hobby boxes and packs, less so in retail generally - the odds of pulling something are posted on a back and/or box. I'd agree its always smart to do your research ahead of time.

 

[Austin]

I mean I think Bowman was reintroduced in 89 and really was the only product specifically targeted towards rookies and prospecting then.

As others have written, your depiction of '80s baseball cards is horribly inaccurate.
Not only was '89 bowman nowhere near the first set geared towards rookies and prospecting, it wasn't even geared toward rookies and prospecting!
It was an over-sized retro-style set that had the same rookies as the other companies' sets.
'91 and '92 is really when Bowman started including the large minor league selection with a few exclusive rookies.

People were prospecting rookies in Traded/Rookie/Update sets since 1981.
The '84 Fleer Update set became the most expensive set of the '80s because of the combination of perceived rarity and tremendous rookie selection.

Donruss was doing Rated Rookies since 1984, and then came out with its blockbuster "The Rookies" set in 1986.
Donruss didn't even bother putting traded players in its update sets like the other companies, because it knew everyone only cared about the prospects in those sets.

Topps had glossy rookie sets.
Score, in 1988, began its annual 100-card rookie and pre-rookie packaged collector sets that were sold at Sam's Club.
Toys R Us had entire rookie boxed sets as early as '86.
'89 Upper Deck Extended sets were huge because of the rookie crop of Todd Zeile, Jerome Walton and Dwight Smith.
Minor League sets were huge in the '80s among prospectors.

 

[uniquebaseballcards]

As others have written, your depiction of '80s baseball cards is horribly inaccurate.
Not only was '89 bowman nowhere near the first set geared towards rookies and prospecting, it wasn't even geared toward rookies and prospecting!
It was a retro-style set that had the same rookies as the other companies' sets.
'91 and '92 is really when Bowman started including the large minor league selection with a few exclusive rookies.

People were prospecting rookies in Traded/Rookie/Update sets since 1981.
The '84 Fleer Update set became the most expensive set of the '80s because of the combination of perceived rarity and tremendous rookie selection.

Donruss was doing Rated Rookies since 1984, and then came out with its blockbuster "The Rookies" set in 1986.
Donruss didn't even bother putting traded players in its update sets like the other companies, because it knew everyone only cared about the prospects in those sets.

Topps had glossy rookie sets.
Score, in 1988, began its annual 100-card rookie and pre-rookie packaged collector sets that were sold at Sam's Club.
Toys R Us had entire rookie boxed sets as early as '86.
'89 Upper Deck Extended sets were huge because of the rookie crop of Todd Zeile, Jerome Walton and Dwight Smith.
Minor League sets were huge in the '80s among prospectors.

One couldn't begin to compare "prospecting" back in the '80s to what its morphed into now.

 

[petMonster]

I don't like how people swear by bv like its still an applicable variable

Word. Let the market determine the value of the cards and then have the price guides reflect those values...not the other way around. There are a good number of cards out there that I would like to obtain for my sets but the sellers have priced them at "current" book values which are BVs that haven't been updated in over 15 years!!! I would like to COLLECT these cards but instead I just look at them on my computer screen and then browse for something else. Just one way BV disrupts collecting.

 

[Mario1975]

Still not the same in my opinion. I mean alot of those sets you mentioned were only released in set form, not as wax boxes, and I don't think people were buying hundreds of sets to horde and stash away. The rated rookies were just part of the Donruss regular set. To me it's the equivalent of ser 1 or 2 topps card that has the rookie logo shield. It wasn't like it was a separate product. I'm not saying that prospecting wasn't going on then just not to the level and as wide spread as it is now and card companies weren't putting as much focus as they do now, with all the different products like bowman, bowman chrome, draft picks, bowman platinum, bowman sterling, etc.

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[Austin]

I'm not saying that prospecting wasn't going on then just not to the level and as wide spread as it is now and card companies weren't putting as much focus as they do now, with all the different products like bowman, bowman chrome, draft picks, bowman platinum, bowman sterling, etc.

Well no kidding, Captain Obvious. No one's debating that prospecting is magnitudes larger now. Anyone can see that.
What you wrote was that 1989 Bowman was "the only product specifically targeted towards rookies and prospecting then."
And I responded that 1989 Bowman was not even a rookie and prospect set. It had the same rookies as any other set in 1989. Then I listed other products that preceded 1989 Bowman that were specific rookie and prospect sets.

 

[Mario1975]

Guess I misunderstood what you were trying to say. Thought you were trying to argue there were a ton of products made back then too geared towards prospecting.

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