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What will be the outcome within the hobby with all this PSA, BGS, PWCC/consignor fraud?

chris19978

Member
Aug 30, 2011
966
Guys, how can anyone read that PWCC thread - and others on BO - and still walk away saying "well I'm still not sure" or "the evidence isn't in"? Knowingly selling altered cards as un-altered is fraud, and the BO guys have shown conclusively that PWCC has repeatedly done this. And in doing so, they have received premiums on these sales that they would not have otherwise received.

About shilling, I agree that simply placing your max bid and letting it ride is a clean and simple way to approach auctions. But shill bidding is a crime, and I'm not OK being taken advantage of by shillers. Basically, it boils down to theft. If a seller outbids you on his own item, ultimately he has stolen something that would otherwise have been yours. And worse, if the seller outbids you but then retracts his bid at the last second, leaving you in the lurch to pay your max bid, he is trying to steal money from you that you would not have otherwise paid.
I never said their innocent they get a lot of cards sent in from other people my point is until the investigation is over and all the evidence is out is when the truth will be out. They have sold altered cards yes but to have a guy to claim all these cards were owned by them, and altered by them or a third party is the question you can’t say is 100% with one person who could have a bias. There auctions will take a hit yes, do I plan to bid on any of their stuff probably not and if I do I will do with caution like everyone else.


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chris19978

Member
Aug 30, 2011
966
Can someone give me a summary? I’d rather read gay romance novels than the retards on BO
Multiple discussions showing PWCC selling altered graded card that Moser the trimmer sent to them and claiming they bought and had him altered cards. I didn’t see the proof of them buying cards though it was a lot of topics and reading and I could have missed something. I will wait till the investigation I do believe they did sell altered cards not sure it was knowingly though or that they bought cards and had them altered.


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Mighty Bombjack

Active member
Aug 7, 2008
6,062
There are a ton of threads on this at BO and net54, but look at some of the other threads on both boards: people obsessing over .5 grade differences and talk of crossing stuff over as a way to profit.

That tells me this is just a blip. No changes wil occur at grading or auction houses until attitudes amongst colectors change towards the importance of grading (and the willingness to spend money on grading and graded cards). I don't see that happening.
 

cgilmo

Active member
Administrator

WCTYSON

Active member
Nov 3, 2014
7,167
I feel for the buyers of these graded cards and especially the high-end graded cards, modern and vintage. With grading, you are paying for security that the card is authentic and is of the quality listed with the numeric score from the evaluation. As a buyer, I have never sought out graded cards for my collection though I do have some graded cards in my PC. As a seller, on numerous occasions I have chosen to grade a card before putting it on the market. Yes, to maximize my return and expand the market that would be interested in buying. It is especially true with high-end cards, if a card is posted FS and it is raw, the seller is limiting their market because buyers on the high-end want quality assurance and are willing to pay a premium.

The erosion of this assurance will be felt market wide. I will still grade high-end cards that I decide to sell, but it is certain that the return will be less than in the past and there will be less buyers in the marketplace. Personally I think, heads need to roll and I'm grateful that these frauds have been exposed. My take has always been, if you can't win by playing it straight, then you are a bigly loser and shouldn't be playing.
 

chris19978

Member
Aug 30, 2011
966
Funny. I realized why I stop going to Blowout Forums now if you don’t agree with what people are saying you get trashed and banned. The guy saying my COMC and eBay accounts are fake, yet I only buy on COMC and have over 100 items listed on eBay. Blowout is filled with nothing but drama. I will never go back to read their drama filled messages again. All I was trying to say was there could be that possibility, yet everyone just wants them to be found guilty without police evidence. This is not new people have known about this for years of people trimming and altering cards, yet they cry now why not do this years ago? What makes this much different than 3 years ago or longer? I will not ask to be brought back only went there to give my opinion and yet you can’t do that there or you will be banned. Seems like agree or be banned is there stance.
 

chris19978

Member
Aug 30, 2011
966
I know Brian Deer sold him a card years ago a 1996 Studio Silver Proof Derek Jeter for $800.00 PSA 8 grade, around 2 months later he was selling a PSA 10 copy and I questioned him on it, he started he had multiple of these Jeter cards. After that I stopped trading and selling to him as I believed he was doing something to improve the grades.


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smapdi

Active member
Aug 7, 2008
4,181
I suspect that 6 months from now the fallout will have settled and things will largely be back to status quo. While what these scammers did is horrendous, I'd have to think it affects a very small fraction of cards overall, and very likely no one would come in contact with any of them. It is a turning point for the hobby as a whole, though, as all these things we choose to accept as truth, or the actual little white lies we tell ourselves add up, and a breaking point is coming sooner or later. I'm going to the National for the first time this year, and have been hoping and planning on making a major vintage purchase there. This whole thing gives me pause, now, but I can't imagine anything will be settled and all suspect material off the market forever by the National, or a year or 5 years later, so I don't see any point in waiting, just being extra cautious.

There isn't a lot of discussion here because there doesn't need to be. I suspect most active users of FCB are dual-enrolled on BO. I joined BO because traffic here is usually a bit sleepy, while over there the front page is 75-90% different every day. I trust the collectors here way more, though, as I imagine most have been here a long time, refugees from Beckett, and are just older, more mature people who don't get all wrapped up in every little thing. Also, the average FCB user can write complete sentences and articulate their thoughts a lot better than on BO. That there are so many users over there it tends to demonstrate the worst dictums of the internet, though. You can post something one day, it gets 1 response and is forgotten. Someone else posts the same thing 3 weeks later and it generates 40 pages that go way off course around page 3, with Kardashian-level drama. On BO, you've got people who bought their first cards a year ago but know everything about everything now and cannot stand agreement.
 

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