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You can't fight city hall- eBay protecting large sellers and shillers (probstein content)

ThoseBackPages

New member
Aug 7, 2008
32,986
New York
im not saying shilling is right, because it certainly isnt.

people shouldnt search packs or sell dead boxes, but they do all the time. this "hobby" is pure evil
 

jcmint

Super Moderator
Aug 7, 2008
5,676
Just from that one user you can't prove any shilling happened there for sure.
maybe if the guy had a lot ore feedback and his bids were in the 100's with the same seller it's easier to prove.
With what you showed there's no definitive way to prove it
 

Lancemountain

Active member
Apr 11, 2009
8,307
Philadelphia
While I get that it would be nice to save extra money, what's the big deal here? You agreed that spending X on Y was acceptable to you. How that price was reached is irrelevant, either you want it for that price or not. If not, don't bid that much. Is it ideal? No. But on eBay you never have to pay more than you want to put in the box.
This is such an asinine point to make that all I can say is that it's extremely asinine.
 

Lancemountain

Active member
Apr 11, 2009
8,307
Philadelphia
Just from that one user you can't prove any shilling happened there for sure.
maybe if the guy had a lot ore feedback and his bids were in the 100's with the same seller it's easier to prove.
With what you showed there's no definitive way to prove it
It's been covered ITT and even stated by me that by the letter of the law there is no concrete evidence short of IP tracking to prove it in a court of law. Not sure what your point is by saying this three pages later?

FYI men have been sent to death row for circumstantial evidence. Where there is smoke, there is fire. All I have here is very specific, detailed and motive driven circumstantial evidence.......These auctions were shilled.
 

JEBJJA

Active member
Aug 11, 2008
2,300
South Jersey- Near Philly
I was shilled on a BGS 9.5 graded Aflac Harper auto RC. It was about a year ago and the evidence was there and for the first time in my ebay history I decided not to pay. Screw that guy. I'm not paying more than I have to so too bad and that card has gone down a lot since then. Best move I ever made. It's about ethics and about what is right and wrong. I was wrong for not going through with my purchase BUT he was wrong for letting it happen.
 

Lancemountain

Active member
Apr 11, 2009
8,307
Philadelphia
I was shilled on a BGS 9.5 graded Aflac Harper auto RC. It was about a year ago and the evidence was there and for the first time in my ebay history I decided not to pay. Screw that guy. I'm not paying more than I have to so too bad and that card has gone down a lot since then. Best move I ever made. It's about ethics and about what is right and wrong. I was wrong for not going through with my purchase BUT he was wrong for letting it happen.
Good for you for standing up for yourself and fellow collectors. I disagree with you when you say you where wrong to not go through with the purchase. You did the right thing. I wish I had looked through my auctions as well.
 

Lancemountain

Active member
Apr 11, 2009
8,307
Philadelphia
Like Wes mentioned, nobody's forced to bid more then they are willing to pay.

You know what? I'll take a crack at responding to this as you seem to agree with [MENTION=1957]Wes[/MENTION] 's asinine feelings towards shilling.

Now I'll admit my entire following argument is based on a few assumptions but I feel comfortable making these assumptions about you, wes and just about every other collector here.

What we are "willing to pay" is based on what we, the buyer, perceives the current market value. You said yourself you are a sniper, that again leads me to assume you set your snipes and bids on what the card you are after is currently valued by yourself. Again, assumptions here that you, wes and just about every other collector here base what a card is currently valued at by the most recent sales...be it on eBay or other venues. Cards, vintage, pre war or modern have an ebb and flow in prices. You, wes and just about every other collector here know that card values can rise and fall. Sometimes in months, sometimes in years.

If I am used to paying $3.50 a gallon for gas, does it make it ok for Exxon to still charge that amount even though the price of oil has plummeted and the federal government has underwritten subsidies? Lets say the true current market value for a gallon of gas is $3.10.......should I still pay Exxon $3.50 because that's what I am "willing to pay" even though the real value of that tank of gas is actually $3.10?

I put in my bids on 7 Mike Schmidt patch cards. My bids were ran up. I did not pay current market value on those Mike Schmidt patch cards. I paid what the consigner deemed the value he had placed on those cards. There is now a false "market value" for mike Schmidt patch cards that is skewed by shilling. The next guy coming down the pike will set his snipes like you, and will be "willing to pay" like you what he deems fair value at the current point.

Shilling creates false value and turning a blind eye(probstein) and shrugging it off(you) is just as harmful to the hobby as a whole as the actual shilling.:grouphug:
 

nyc3

New member
Aug 20, 2008
5,305
i have no idea why people dont snipe.
Its already been shown several hundreds of times now sniping does NOTHING to deter or stop shilling. Not sure why people think this is a solution. All it does it gets you shilled in the last seconds of the auction.

If I was going to win a card for 100 and you shill it to 120 I now have to pay 121 to win (without you bidding I win at 100) how exactly did sniping save me? Sniping is COMPLETELY USELESS for shilling and not a way to avoid it one bit.
 

jbhofmann

Active member
Mar 12, 2009
6,914
Indiana
You know what? I'll take a crack at responding to this as you seem to agree with @Wes 's asinine feelings towards shilling.

Now I'll admit my entire following argument is based on a few assumptions but I feel comfortable making these assumptions about you, wes and just about every other collector here.

What we are "willing to pay" is based on what we, the buyer, perceives the current market value. You said yourself you are a sniper, that again leads me to assume you set your snipes and bids on what the card you are after is currently valued by yourself. Again, assumptions here that you, wes and just about every other collector here base what a card is currently valued at by the most recent sales...be it on eBay or other venues. Cards, vintage, pre war or modern have an ebb and flow in prices. You, wes and just about every other collector here know that card values can rise and fall. Sometimes in months, sometimes in years.

If I am used to paying $3.50 a gallon for gas, does it make it ok for Exxon to still charge that amount even though the price of oil has plummeted and the federal government has underwritten subsidies? Lets say the true current market value for a gallon of gas is $3.10.......should I still pay Exxon $3.50 because that's what I am "willing to pay" even though the real value of that tank of gas is actually $3.10?

I put in my bids on 7 Mike Schmidt patch cards. My bids were ran up. I did not pay current market value on those Mike Schmidt patch cards. I paid what the consigner deemed the value he had placed on those cards. There is now a false "market value" for mike Schmidt patch cards that is skewed by shilling. The next guy coming down the pike will set his snipes like you, and will be "willing to pay" like you what he deems fair value at the current point.

Shilling creates false value and turning a blind eye(probstein) and shrugging it off(you) is just as harmful to the hobby as a whole as the actual shilling.:grouphug:

A better analogy would be paying $3.50 at Exxon then as you leave the pump they lower it to $3.10. Just saying. You WERE willing to pay $3.50 even though the market was already changing to $3.10 before you ever picked up the pump.
 

jbhofmann

Active member
Mar 12, 2009
6,914
Indiana
Its already been shown several hundreds of times now sniping does NOTHING to deter or stop shilling. Not sure why people think this is a solution. All it does it gets you shilled in the last seconds of the auction.

If I was going to win a card for 100 and you shill it to 120 I now have to pay 121 to win (without you bidding I win at 100) how exactly did sniping save me? Sniping is COMPLETELY USELESS for shilling and not a way to avoid it one bit.
If your snipe was set at 100 then the shill would win.

We can't sit here and play what if games about this.

It sucks, but realistically there's just not much you can do about it.
 
Jun 30, 2010
723
What shilling does is FORCE me to pay the most I am willing to pay while manipulating me to pay the higher price. I would be willing to pay that price and be happy anyway, but that is not exactly the point... If I am willing to pay 100 for an item that I am able to get for 75.00, then the process should be an honest process and not manipulated. I wonder how Mastronet feels about the process now?
 

homerun28aa

Active member
Jun 8, 2011
19,007
You know what? I'll take a crack at responding to this as you seem to agree with @Wes 's asinine feelings towards shilling.

Now I'll admit my entire following argument is based on a few assumptions but I feel comfortable making these assumptions about you, wes and just about every other collector here.

What we are "willing to pay" is based on what we, the buyer, perceives the current market value. You said yourself you are a sniper, that again leads me to assume you set your snipes and bids on what the card you are after is currently valued by yourself. Again, assumptions here that you, wes and just about every other collector here base what a card is currently valued at by the most recent sales...be it on eBay or other venues. Cards, vintage, pre war or modern have an ebb and flow in prices. You, wes and just about every other collector here know that card values can rise and fall. Sometimes in months, sometimes in years.

If I am used to paying $3.50 a gallon for gas, does it make it ok for Exxon to still charge that amount even though the price of oil has plummeted and the federal government has underwritten subsidies? Lets say the true current market value for a gallon of gas is $3.10.......should I still pay Exxon $3.50 because that's what I am "willing to pay" even though the real value of that tank of gas is actually $3.10?

I put in my bids on 7 Mike Schmidt patch cards. My bids were ran up. I did not pay current market value on those Mike Schmidt patch cards. I paid what the consigner deemed the value he had placed on those cards. There is now a false "market value" for mike Schmidt patch cards that is skewed by shilling. The next guy coming down the pike will set his snipes like you, and will be "willing to pay" like you what he deems fair value at the current point.

Shilling creates false value and turning a blind eye(probstein) and shrugging it off(you) is just as harmful to the hobby as a whole as the actual shilling.:grouphug:
I'm still with you. And at the end of the day I'd like to add that this is a freaking hobby though I understand guys like probstein make their livelihood off of it, which is fair but having to deal with shillers and patch fakers always leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth.
I see that you ignored my original post so I'd just like to pose the question again to you, what option does the co-signer have here given the fact that suspending payments for 30 days will deter business away from you which you can't happen because you have others (I know of Joe on this board, I'm sure there are others too) who are more than capable of being just as good consignment options.
I place the responsibility on eBay to stop this practice, not on the co-signer (if he is not the one shilling himself).

But again, I can confidently say you got shilled. This guys auctions are accused of getting shilled on every message board all over the internet.
 

Lancemountain

Active member
Apr 11, 2009
8,307
Philadelphia
what option does the co-signer have here given the fact that suspending payments for 30 days will deter business away from you which you can't happen because you have others (I know of Joe on this board, I'm sure there are others too) who are more than capable of being just as good consignment options.
.
I understand holding payments will deter some business, perhaps a happy medium would be 7 days after delivery? If business is deterred to a competitor then probstein can chalk that up to operating a business as honestly as possible. He's not operating with honest intent. He's throwing up his hands in mock disgust and exclaiming he can't do a thing about it.


I agree with your point RE:eBay and this was the point of the thread that's been missed. These auctions were shilled. The listings were reported and did literally nothing about it. And they removed my negative feedbacks. The last feedback I left that was deleted was "I am very unhappy with this transaction". How is that against any TOS???!??
 

Luck15Hope

New member
Jan 11, 2012
140
Unrelated to your incident here about being shilled, but will help further prove your point that you are trying to make in this thread that eBay does nothing about problems brought up against high volume sellers. Here is a link to an item that Probstein had listed and sold a week ago.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2010-Topps-Finest-Gold-Refractor-Rob-Gronkowski-AUTO-Patch-RC-18-25-/361164666632?pt=US_Football&hash=item5417177708&nma=true&si=foNrwCFklEDgIWtFUjE%252FwNfasMM%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Here is how the card originally looked before being faked.
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/2010-finest-rob-gronkowski-gold-auto-131340623

Now, myself along with a minimum of 5 others, reported Probsteins item to eBay along with the evidence of the same item that had already previously been sold on their (eBay) website. Of course, Probsteins auction was allowed to proceed until its end without any action being taken by eBay despite the evidence provided. eBay simply refuses to do anything about high volume sellers selling faked merchandise(the gronkowski auction being allowed to continue despite numerous reports proving it to be a fake) as well as their auctions being shilled(based on the OPs situation).

Now that we can agree that the above statement is within reason, from a buyers point of view, how do we go about solving these issues and the hypocrisy of eBay whom allows all of these actions to take place?
 

A_Pharis

New member
Unrelated to your incident here about being shilled, but will help further prove your point that you are trying to make in this thread that eBay does nothing about problems brought up against high volume sellers. Here is a link to an item that Probstein had listed and sold a week ago.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2010-Topps-Finest-Gold-Refractor-Rob-Gronkowski-AUTO-Patch-RC-18-25-/361164666632?pt=US_Football&hash=item5417177708&nma=true&si=foNrwCFklEDgIWtFUjE%252FwNfasMM%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Here is how the card originally looked before being faked.
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/2010-finest-rob-gronkowski-gold-auto-131340623

Now, myself along with a minimum of 5 others, reported Probsteins item to eBay along with the evidence of the same item that had already previously been sold on their (eBay) website. Of course, Probsteins auction was allowed to proceed until its end without any action being taken by eBay despite the evidence provided. eBay simply refuses to do anything about high volume sellers selling faked merchandise(the gronkowski auction being allowed to continue despite numerous reports proving it to be a fake) as well as their auctions being shilled(based on the OPs situation).

Now that we can agree that the above statement is within reason, from a buyers point of view, how do we go about solving these issues and the hypocrisy of eBay whom allows all of these actions to take place?
He ends up with more than his fair share of fakes. The issue is that he may not be faking them, himself.
 

Wes

Managing Director
Administrator
You know what? I'll take a crack at responding to this as you seem to agree with @Wes 's asinine feelings towards shilling.

Now I'll admit my entire following argument is based on a few assumptions but I feel comfortable making these assumptions about you, wes and just about every other collector here.

What we are "willing to pay" is based on what we, the buyer, perceives the current market value. You said yourself you are a sniper, that again leads me to assume you set your snipes and bids on what the card you are after is currently valued by yourself. Again, assumptions here that you, wes and just about every other collector here base what a card is currently valued at by the most recent sales...be it on eBay or other venues. Cards, vintage, pre war or modern have an ebb and flow in prices. You, wes and just about every other collector here know that card values can rise and fall. Sometimes in months, sometimes in years.

If I am used to paying $3.50 a gallon for gas, does it make it ok for Exxon to still charge that amount even though the price of oil has plummeted and the federal government has underwritten subsidies? Lets say the true current market value for a gallon of gas is $3.10.......should I still pay Exxon $3.50 because that's what I am "willing to pay" even though the real value of that tank of gas is actually $3.10?

I put in my bids on 7 Mike Schmidt patch cards. My bids were ran up. I did not pay current market value on those Mike Schmidt patch cards. I paid what the consigner deemed the value he had placed on those cards. There is now a false "market value" for mike Schmidt patch cards that is skewed by shilling. The next guy coming down the pike will set his snipes like you, and will be "willing to pay" like you what he deems fair value at the current point.

Shilling creates false value and turning a blind eye(probstein) and shrugging it off(you) is just as harmful to the hobby as a whole as the actual shilling.:grouphug:
Seems like the key distinction is your assumption of what "willing to pay" means for me. I'm willing to pay whatever amount I deem an item to be worth. "Current market value" is a part of that calculation but is not the only thing. If I am willing to pay X and I win it for X then I am going to be pleased, regardless of the methodology of how that number was reached. I don't go to the grocery store and worry about what the fair profit margin is on the eggs or juice I buy is. Either the price is amenable and I buy it or it isn't. Wasting energy thinking about how much extra profit someone may or may not be squeezing out of me just isn't a factor. It's my decision to pay the price or to walk away. Same goes for eBay, Amazon, the stock market and any other place where an item is sold.
 

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