Your HOF requirements

[maxe0213]

Since IMHO the true All-Stars are the reserves/pitchers that are added to the team by their peers, how many of the 14 ASG's Jeter was in did he get there by being a reserve? I see at least five (not counted among the 14) where he didn't make an ASG, meaning no fan vote or his peers put him on the team.

Its all being an all star. Doesn't matter whether its reserves or voted by peers or what not. You still get an all star nomination. You don't see average players get 10-15 ASG. You only see great players with that many.

It may not be a good indicator to you but it definitely is to me. Show me some average players that have 15 or so ASG's. You can't, only the very above average/great players get that many.

 

[maxe0213]

ASG are fan awards. You assume it will go to the best players, but fans are human and humans are flawed. Favorites are selected over better players. When a team hosted the game, most players from that team tended to make the squads too.

I'll use Steve Garvey as a good example. he was always considered one of the better player in his league and all of baseball in the late mid 70s-mid 80s. He was almost a lock to hit .300 and 6 times a 200 hit season. He was a standard for fielding as a 1B. he was good enough AND played long enough to rack up some pretty decent numbers, but no major milestone stats. Toss in a few personal scandals and pretty soon he was not even considered one of the best any longer.

Here is an eyeball measure for some of you older guys to consider. I was just going through a huge stack of 70s magazines and the same guys were featured all the time…Garvey, Rose, Bench, Ryan, Brett, Munson, Jackson, etc. Those were the best players of their time. Steroids have definitely changed how we look at stats and maybe some of the older players will get a 2nd look.

I find it interesting that Biggio gets in first and Bagwell is still waiting, when clearly he was THE GUY on the Astros and Biggio was always in his shadows. i will admit that the whole steroid scandal bored me, so i didn't follow closely. Was Bagwell one of the confirmed users? He was a HOF lock in the same manner as Thomas for a long time...

Just suspicions but Bagwell was not as good as Biggio all around.

 

[jbhofmann]

Just suspicions but Bagwell was not as good as Biggio all around.

Bagwell was a great hitter and put up unreal power numbers in that airport called the Astrodome.
He was also a very good defensive 1B. It's really amazing that he's not thought of more highly.
By all accounts a great man too.

 

[homerun28aa]

Since IMHO the true All-Stars are the reserves/pitchers that are added to the team by their peers, how many of the 14 ASG's Jeter was in did he get there by being a reserve? I see at least five (not counted among the 14) where he didn't make an ASG, meaning no fan vote or his peers put him on the team.

You're driving your argument by picking on a guy who will be one of the highest voted first ballot HOFers in history lol...career .310 hitter with almost 3,500 hits. Captain for one of the greatest dynasties in all of sports (and I'm a Sox fan), 5 time world series champion, 5 time gold glove winner, 5 time silver slugger winner, any writer will have a tough time not putting him on their ballot.

 

[Y4NK335]

Since IMHO the true All-Stars are the reserves/pitchers that are added to the team by their peers, how many of the 14 ASG's Jeter was in did he get there by being a reserve? I see at least five (not counted among the 14) where he didn't make an ASG, meaning no fan vote or his peers put him on the team.

I'm having a hard time understanding this argument. Are you being facetious when saying that all of the voted/starting players in the ASG are not deserving?

 

[Kennesawsportscards]

Longevity wins points( Biggio) because stats cannot altogether be overlooked... However my major barometer says this, even though it doesn't necessarily hold true with the voters(Look how long it took for Jim Rice to be elected and he was one of the most feared hitters). My Barometer...... Was he one of the most dominant players at his position? By my reasoning Piazza definitely belongs in as well as Albert Belle and Joe Carter.... Feel free to opine more..Bryan

 

[maxe0213]

I'm having a hard time understanding this argument. Are you being facetious when saying that all of the voted/starting players in the ASG are not deserving?

Agree. Wtf

Longevity wins points( Biggio) because stats cannot altogether be overlooked... However my major barometer says this, even though it doesn't necessarily hold true with the voters(Look how long it took for Jim Rice to be elected and he was one of the most feared hitters). My Barometer...... Was he one of the most dominant players at his position? By my reasoning Piazza definitely belongs in as well as Albert Belle and Joe Carter.... Feel free to opine more..Bryan

Definitely think Piazza should and will get in next year after looking at his stats more.

 

[Kennesawsportscards]

Lets keep World Series rings out of the discussion also. Otherwise I may have to vote for Luis Sojo and Ramiro Mendoza and Dal Maxvill(5 rings each) Or how about Johnny Murphy( 6 rings) ....Think I just got sick....

 

[maxe0213]

Lets keep World Series rings out of the discussion also. Otherwise I may have to vote for Luis Sojo and Ramiro Mendoza and Dal Maxvill(5 rings each) Or how about Johnny Murphy( 6 rings) ....Think I just got sick....

You have to at least somewhat consider WS rings. If its a debate between two players with virtually identical stats yet one has 4 WS wins and one has 1, which one should make it?

 

[MrMet]

You have to at least somewhat consider WS rings. If its a debate between two players with virtually identical stats yet one has 4 WS wins and one has 1, which one should make it?

If their stats are virtually identical, the WS rings shouldn't make a difference at all

 

[maxe0213]

If their stats are virtually identical, the WS rings shouldn't make a difference at all

So you would say they are even? Thats pretty ridiculous.

 

[michaelstepper]

Does it make you a better player because your team happened to be better overall?

Post season numbers should be given some merit, but rings? No

 

[MrMet]

So you would say they are even? Thats pretty ridiculous.

Did the player win the World Series all by themselves?

Ernie Banks never won a ring, should he be kicked out of the Hall?

And my statement was ridiculous...

 

[jbhofmann]

I've said this many times...this ring thing is a very recent phenomenon that has sprung up with the rise in popularity of sports radio.

When you think of the following guys what number comes to mind?

Babe Ruth
Pete Rose
Hank Aaron
Nolan Ryan

It's not number of rings!

714
4192
755
7

 

[Y4NK335]

I've said this many times...this ring thing is a very recent phenomenon that has sprung up with the rise in popularity of sports radio.

When you think of the following guys what number comes to mind?

Babe Ruth
Pete Rose
Hank Aaron
Nolan Ryan

It's not number of rings!

714
4192
755
7

Yogi Berra 10

But yea, agreed. Rings are not as important in baseball as they are in other sports when it comes down to the HOF...

 

[jbhofmann]

Yogi Berra 10

But yea, agreed. Rings are not as important in baseball as they are in other sports when it comes down to the HOF...

Touche


however, Berra would be so far down any list of mine that it wouldn't matter much

 

[maxe0213]

Did the player win the World Series all by themselves?

Ernie Banks never won a ring, should he be kicked out of the Hall?

And my statement was ridiculous...

Now you're just pulling out of you a$$ lol. Did I ever say that Ernie banks or anyone should be kicked out for not having a ring? I said if it came down to it and both players had identical stats but one had 5 ws rings and the other had 1 and say had to vote one in over the other, why would you not take the guy with the rings if everything else is identical.

And yes, your statement was ridiculous.

 

[WCTYSON]

How many times a player made the ASG, won a GG and got a WS ring is laughable barometer in gauging a player's value. Stop the madness.

 

[sportscardtheory]

I think how they match-up with the greats at the same position is the biggest factor.

 

[rsmath]

I'm having a hard time understanding this argument. Are you being facetious when saying that all of the voted/starting players in the ASG are not deserving?

many aren't deserving to be starters in the ASG to due to fan player/team popularity vote. Going by "1st half" stats at the time the teams are announced, i bet quite a few of the ASG starters would not be starters and would most likely be reserves or a few even left off the team entirely. The reason for the ASG plus the flaw resulting in about a third of the roster potentially not be deserving is why I discount the number of ASGs in doing player analysis of who is a HOFer.